What is the end goal for creationists these days?

[Astrophile]

I just think there's a difference between what we have proven and what we only theorize. We can prove gravity exists. But we can't prove that any animals have evolved from one species to another. We've seen animals adapt, but they've never changed into something else entirely. Micro-evolution: observed. Macro-evolution: not observed.

This isn't an answer to my question. I asked how you would have evolution taught as a theory. Would you please answer that question?

 

[Ronald]

Or just 2, depending on which biblical verse you think is right about it. Eye witness accounts are some of the worst evidence, and even the witnesses were skeptical, since Jesus apparently decided to come back looking different than he originally did.

The reliability of the Bible is sound, it's evidence irrefutable.

Nah, one of the qualifications for the Christian end times is that "no one will see it coming". That is, as long as there are people claiming that the end is near, that end ain't the one described in the bible.

"Behold, He is coming in the clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him..." Rev. 1:7
This is the evidence you were waiting for, to personally experience Him and see Him with your own eyes. But by then, it may be too late for you!

This is actually incorrect; there are missionary sites that show zones in which there are people that have never been exposed to Christianity.

"All the nations" doesn't mean every person of every remote tribe but the entire world has heard of Jesus.

I can't make myself believe something just because I view it as better; just because I want it to be true...
but I am keeping the door open; it's never been shut, really, but these past 9 years I have been holding it as wide open as the door can go.

Nobody can make themselves believe or anyone else. Faith is a gift. But with all those preconceived misconceptions and doubts, that door of yours seems to be hammered shut and sealed with lies and deception.

The majority of people that die, heroically or otherwise, aren't Christian.



-_-

they'd be fools for risking their lives if they did believe in an afterlife, because what's the point in protecting this temporary world if there is an infinite one coming after it that's objectively better?

Life has purpose and evil needs to be restrained and stopped until our purpose is finished on earth. Protecting your family or country and willing to die takes courage and this courage is comes from faith. Many military men have faith. They say, "there are not too many atheists in fox holes!" When they witness what they do and see death is close, they pray like they never had before.

So I'll pray for you to have a divine appointment ...


testing > What was your first thought when you read that? Was it negative or positive? You don't have to tell, just try to be a more open when God sends someone into your life and talks to you about God or invites you to their church. Just for once in your life, act like an innocent ignorant child who knows nothing and say OK. Because if you respond with the attitude that you have already presented, your door is shut!
He will orchestrate events and people who will come into your life to witness to you when you are ready (although it doesn't seem like you are). But really, if you want a relationship with God, you must come in humility. It's OK to be skeptical and of course you have lots of doubts, but just pray, "God, if you are real, show me." Faith comes by the Word and so next time you read it, forget all the world has told you about it and pray for guidance and understanding, a willingness to know Him, that's an open door.

 

[Larniavc]

What part of force rape do you not understand?

The bit that you need to add the word ‘force’ to rape.

Is there a non forced kind of rape?

 

[juvenissun]

"both"?

Is that supposed to be science on the one hand and then creationism on the other?
Because "both", as in "2", will not cut it in that case....


List of creation myths - Wikipedia

It will. When you make a syllabus, you will know.

 

[pitabread]

While there may be organizations as such, they do not speak for all of those who hold to Biblical truth.

Sure. But it's difficult to get a handle on what every single individual creationist thinks as views can vary wildly.

Goes to my second point, that Evolution is not science.

Well, it is. It's one of the foundations of the modern biological sciences. If you don't believe me, grab a modern biology textbook and check.

Also a really bad generalization that all creationists try to "quash science". Turkey is also most certainly not a Christian nation, so to argue that "creationists" did that is a very great stretch.

Creationists are not exclusivity Christian; there are creationists in other faiths including Muslims, Jews, etc. Often times the arguments against evolution tend to mirror each other, regardless of underlying faith.

That appears to be a confirmation bias fallacy.

No, confirmation bias occurs when one blatantly ignores evidence to the contrary and only accepts evidence that supports their prescribed position.

In the case of hypothesis testing and prediction, if the observed evidence does not agree with the hypothesis (i.e. it's not what was predicted), then the hypothesis would need to be discarded or at the very least modified and re-tested.

Do you have the ability to travel back in time? At best you can make guesses about the past.

Events of the past leave evidence in the present. We don't need a time machine to observe the outcome of past events.

 

[DogmaHunter]

It will. When you make a syllabus, you will know.

I think the whole point is knowing it BEFORE starting to create textbooks.

There is exactly zero reason to teach your particular creation myth as some "alternative", while ignoring all other creation myths which have the exact same merrit as yours.

 

[Motherofkittens]

Since Darwin, only about 10% of the world population are atheists. Even after TOE is forced down our children's throats in schools and practically all universities have turned away from their origins as Christian based, ya'll still have your measly 10% of ungodly people. Faith in God is strong and you are the minority.
Everything that is good comes from God. Good and Evil have about reached their precipice and will soon be separated during a time called the Great Tribulation Period/Judgment Day. All those who have rejected God/Jesus will be destroyed. Sorry I must be blunt. The wages of sin is death and this is not just physical death, it is spiritual death. You will not be aware of this until the moment of your death -- unless you are saved by grace through faith in Jesus. This faith is a gift, but you must receive it in humility, like a child. Your arrogance and pride will keep you away from God.
This may be your final warning!

Well, I could say that is because to get to truth, the path is narrow.

I guess you don't know this, but science doesn't say anything about the supernatural. Some Christians some time ago, thought that accepting the facts that are contrary to what the bible says, that the earth is not flat or the center of the universe (as well as many more things that are wrong) would cause unbelief and was a lie. It isn't a very big deal now. Just like most Christians accept evolution. Religions evolve, if they don't, they die.

 

[tas8831]

Oh, dry your eyes. If he had made a personal attack you might have a point.

In my experience, creationists have declared that disagreeing with them is a 'personal attack', so who knows...

 

[tas8831]

Evidently, you are continuing to ignore the facts:

SCIENTIFIC DISCIPLINES
ESTABLISHED BY
CREATIONIST SCIENTISTS

DISCIPLINE SCIENTIST
ANTISEPTIC SURGERY JOSEPH LISTER (1827-1912)

Let us just take 1 example.

Lister may well have been a creationist, I don't know or care.

But please show how Lister used the concepts of biblical creationism in his work.


Wouldn't THAT be more relevant here?

 

[Motherofkittens]

Yes, Europe is losing their faith, becoming secular. For many hundreds of years you could not escape the strong influence of faith. If you removed Jesus from history in Europe or anywhere else, you wouldn't have much art or music. But the list is longer, if you removed Jesus from history, you would have barbarian hordes, governments at best like the Roman Empire where they would just go out and conquer and subdue their foes and take their spoils. Back further, you saw the Babylonian, Egyptian, Greek, Medo-Persian empires -- that's what you would have. The USA would just be another empire ruled by a king. There would be no democracy - lol, no public opinion. No, you would do your job and shut up or else. You wouldn't even be able to protest your politically correct ideologies. Jesus has had a influence on the entire world like no other person and He has actually changed the world and restrained evil in many ways.
Your testament to your lack of appreciation of Jesus and His blessings that He has given you and Europe is a shame and quite ignorant. Your view is that civilization evolved into what it is today without God. That's is blind and foolish.

I don't recall the concept of "democracy" being in the bible or Jesus ever mentioning it. Can you point me to it? Instead of secularism, what would you want?

 

[Ophiolite]

This thread is not about your moral framework. It is not about you.

Then why were you making comments about his moral framework?

 

[Motherofkittens]

While the majority in the most atheistic nations (Russia; the People's Republic of China; North Korea, and so on) enjoy one of the lowest standards of living (via the oxy-moronic enforced compliance method)....

None of this quite right. Russia has many religions, with people mostly being Christian. N.Korea's religion is the leaders of their country. They are seen as gods, or at least god like. I am on break and only have a few minutes, so I will look later asI am not sure about China, but I do know there are a lot of unreligious people. It could be possible they are a majority. China is also on its way to being a super power.

The 17 countries with the lowest stardared of living according to the SPI.

"The SPI collates the scores of three main indexes:

• Basic Human Needs, which includes medical care, sanitation, and shelter.
• Foundations of Wellbeing, which covers education, access to technology, and life expectancy.
• Opportunity, which looks at personal rights, freedom of choice, and general tolerance"

The 17 countries with the worst quality of life in the world

All of them are Christian and Muslim majority countries, the lowest in the world is a Christian country. Of course there is a lot more complex issues involved then just what religion a country, region has.

 

[bhsmte]

In my experience, creationists have declared that disagreeing with them is a 'personal attack', so who knows...

Likely because they are trying desperately to protect their belief and any disagreement is viewed as a threat.

 

[pitabread]

In my experience, creationists have declared that disagreeing with them is a 'personal attack', so who knows...

I suspect that for some creationists at least, their beliefs form a part of their personal identity. So an attack on those beliefs is perceived as an attack on them.

 

[Motherofkittens]

Then rape is permissible. It is wrong for men to force rape females. Females have a right from God to not be force raped by men. This applies to all females at all times because they are image of God and have rights. It sounds to me like you would not get it.

On the one hand, you say there are no moral absolutes, and on the other, you assume moral absolutes.You believe every person has a right to their own body when they would not under your system and on the other you believe it was wrong for the Gulag guards to rape females when it was perfectly acceptable. You made assertions and have provided no objective basis for your claims. Because you have none.

All you have is contradictions, and they do not exist. You can't have it both ways. You assume your moral judgments take effect backward in time. News flash, they do not. All suffered the same fate. They died and ceased to exist. The strong dominated the weak. All that is perfectly acceptable with nature absent God.

I don't want to talk about why rape is wrong. At least not right now, because it honestly makes me very, very, sick. If I just had to discuss it a few times, I could manage. But I have to deal with this and worse of rape culture everyday. I just need a break sometimes.

If no one else is able to adequately explain it to you here, I suggest you look up secular morals. If you refuse to do so, I can try to help you...

I am just hesitant because of the reasons above and because you seem to never understand new information that you disagree with. If you actually wanted to learn (but of course not necessarily agreeing with it) I would be a lot more willing and comfortable.

Anyway, I just wanted to point out that you seem to be confusing morals and ethics with what is or what was law. They are not the same thing. And you seem to not have read the bible, or if you did, you glossed over the horrific abuse of people and animals by Yahweh or ordered by him.

 

[tas8831]

Anyway, I just wanted to point out that you seem to be confusing morals and ethics with what is or what was law. They are not the same thing. And you seem to not have read the bible, or if you did, you glossed over the horrific abuse of people and animals by Yahweh or ordered by him.

That is a major issue with evangelicals, especially conservative ones.

When I ask such folk what they think of God ordering the slaughter of pregnant women and children in Samaria, they USUALLY accuse me of making it up, proclaiming that God would never do such a thing. Then when I provide chapter and verse, they hem and haw and make excuses and justify it with the ol' 'God is God and God can do whatever he wants'.

It is hard to reason with such folk.

 

[PsychoSarah]

I don't recall the concept of "democracy" being in the bible or Jesus ever mentioning it. Can you point me to it? Instead of secularism, what would you want?

It wouldn't matter even if the NT did mention democracy, because the concept originated over 500 years before Jesus was crucified.

 

[joshua 1 9]

I don't recall the concept of "democracy" being in the bible or Jesus ever mentioning it. Can you point me to it? Instead of secularism, what would you want?

God wanted a Theocracy. Read 1 Samuel 8. There is a very interesting discussion on the difference between man's government and God's government. …"Give us a king to judge us." And Samuel prayed to the LORD. 7 The LORD said to Samuel, "Listen to the voice of the people in regard to all that they say to you, for they have not rejected you, but they have rejected Me from being king over them.

This is the permissive will of God. He allows people free will to make their own choices and to suffer the consequences of making wrong choices.

 

[bhsmte]

God wanted a Theocracy. Read 1 Samuel 8. There is a very interesting discussion on the difference between man's government and God's government. …"Give us a king to judge us." And Samuel prayed to the LORD. 7 The LORD said to Samuel, "Listen to the voice of the people in regard to all that they say to you, for they have not rejected you, but they have rejected Me from being king over them.

This is the permissive will of God. He allows people free will to make their own choices and to suffer the consequences of making wrong choices.

A theocracy, contradicts free will.

 

[Almost there]

When I used to participate in the general C/E debate over a decade ago, a common refrain from the creationist/ID side was how evolutionary biology was doomed, more and more scientists were rejecting it, and that it would eventually be replaced by some sort of scientific creationism or ID.

None of this has obviously come to pass, with creationism/ID making zero dent against mainstream science. Not only that, but creationism has even been losing popular support insofar as USA polling goes.

All I really see from creationists these days when it comes to prognostications is run-of-the-mill apocalyptic prophesy.

Have creationists given up on overturning the scientific establishment? Is it now just a matter of sitting around, chanting about the evils of evolution and waiting for the world to end?

What is the end goal for creationists these days?

I think that since the debate doesn't really affect us, we really don't talk about it as much as we used to. The whole thing has become less important now that the global warming debate is actually about something that could affect our taxes and cost of living.

There is plenty of evidence on both sides of the C/E debate to support both positions to where a person is going to come down on the side that matches their intellectual/spiritual makeup.