Classical Dispensationalist Only What is the Dispensational view of the ‘Times of the Gentiles’?

[Marilyn C]

BTW... Daniel 7:23-27 is talking about the destruction of
the FOURTH KINGDOM... not a fifth.

With all due respect, apparently this Biblical FACT
destroys all of your theories noted above.

Jim

Daniel 2 is the great Image of the 5 World Rulers.
Daniel 7 describes the 4 Federations of our time that lead up to the final Global Government.

 

[Marilyn C]

.

Where is the Scripture to support the kingdoms
(a) come up at one time and
(b) rule concurrently


Jim
.

Daniel said - `And four great beasts came up from the sea, each different from the other. (Dan. 7: 3)

`a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, exceedingly strong. It had huge iron teeth; it was devouring, breaking in pieces, and TRAMPLING THE RESIDUE with its feet.` (Dan. 7: 7)

` I watched till the beast was slain, and its body destroyed and given to the burning flame. As FOR THE REST OF THE BEASTS, they had their dominion taken away, yet their lives were prolonged for a season and a time.` (Dan. 7: 11 & 12)

So we see the fourth Federation trampled the other Federations. Then when God dealt with it the other Federations had their dominion (power) taken away but they still continued for a while.

This shows that these four kingdoms /Federations were operating at the same time.

 

[Marilyn C]

I believe that history shows there have been a couple of
"Kingdoms" (empires) on earth AFTER the Roman Empire fell.

While some may like to PRETEND all empires AFTER Rome are
still PART of Rome... that does not even pass the giggle test.

Jim

But NOT World Rulers. There has been NO World Ruler since Rome. History clearly shows this. God said they were World Rulers. (Dan. 2: 37 & 38)

 

[Brian Mcnamee]

Hi some prophecy seems to have more than one meaning or can be fulfilled multiple times such as the abomination of desolation where Atiochus Ephiphanes desecrated the temple and it will indeed happen again. When looking at the time of the Gentiles I see perhaps this is the case with the latter time of the Gentiles being when Jerusalem is trodden under foot for 42 months. Rev 11 “But leave out the court which is outside the temple, and do not measure it, for it has been given to the Gentiles. And they will tread the holy city underfoot for forty-two months. Rev 13 And he was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and he was given authority to continue[fn] for forty-two months. 6 Then he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, His tabernacle, and those who dwell in heaven. 7 It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe,[fn] tongue, and nation. 8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. This last 42 months presents a great before and after picture that is glorious.
Luke 21 For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people. 24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

Seems to me this could very easily go on until the LORD is come and is king over all the earth. The 70 weeks being for Daniels people and the holy city Jerusalem has been linked to the idea that all 70 weeks pertain to Israel as the main focus and that after 69 weeks the time of the gentiles began. The 70th week bringing Israel back into the main focus of the 70th week does not mean the time of the Gentiles is over. It might mean that but as I see it the holy city is tread under foot for the last 42 months of the 70th week.

 

[5thKingdom]

I'm sure there have been more than a couple of "Kingdoms" (empires) on earth AFTER the Roman Empire fell. However, I understand the empires to be referring to those that arise in the same general area - all trampling underfoot Jerusalem. Hence, Babylon, Persia, Greece, Rome, Islam have that in common.

Lets see what Marilyn has to say?

With all due respect, it does not matter what Marilyn has to say.
She has already contradicted the Bible by saying the Kingdoms
in Daniel 7 arose at the same time - and ruled concurrently.


Secondly, Daniel 7 is clear that the kingdoms or not from the
"same general area" but the Kingdoms that arose ON EARTH.


Dan 7:7
After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast,
dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.


Dan 7:23
Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom
upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall
devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it
in pieces.


Finally, Marilyn is teaching a doctrine that is at least 600 years
old and the Bible PROMISED the Truth about Daniel's Kingdoms
would remain "closed-up" and "sealed" until the "time-of-the-end"
[Dan 12:4 and 12:8-10].


Now the theologians that DEVELOPED the doctrine Marilyn is
repeating thought they were the last generation so they can
be excused for ignoring the PROMISE in Daniel 12... however
the fact that they were NOT the Last Saints PROVES that their
theories could not be Biblical because they were developed in a
time when the Bible PROMISED the truth would remain "sealed".


I seriously doubt Marilyn will respond to the four (4) unanswered
questions after being shown (by the verses above) that her
theory contradicts Scripture.


Jim

 

[5thKingdom]

Daniel 2 is the great Image of the 5 World Rulers.
Daniel 7 describes the 4 Federations of our time that lead up to the final Global Government.

Marilyn... I understand that is your opinion but that is NOT
what the Bible says. Please notice the parts that are underlined
and in bold... especially the RED.


The Bible says Daniel's Four Kingdoms that arise ON EARTH
and the Fourth Kingdom is different than the other three
that were (wait for it.....) "BEFORE IT".


Please do not send posts with your opinion.
Especially AFTER I have already posted SCRIPTURE
that contradicts your opinion. You will need to post
Scripture not opinions.


And saying "federations" means LESS than nothing when
the BIBLE says nothing of the sort. You are simply repeating
what someone told you - who was repeating what they were
told. You need SCRIPTURE to prove your theories.


Dan 7:7
After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast,
dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.


Dan 7:23
Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom
upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall
devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it
in pieces.


Jim

 

[5thKingdom]

So we see the fourth Federation trampled the other Federations. Then when God dealt with it the other Federations had their dominion (power) taken away but they still continued for a while.

This shows that these four kingdoms /Federations were operating at the same time.

Of course the PROBLEM is that you continue to contradict
what the BIBLE says in the TWO VERSES that I provided
from the start.


AGAIN.. These verses PROVE


(a) the Kingdoms did not arise at the same time
Notice the SCRIPTURE (you are ignoring) says the
Fourth Beast was different than the Beasts that were
(wait for it.....) BEFORE IT


(b) The Kingdoms did not rule concurrently.
Why do you continue to make claims that are already
shown to contradict the Bible? I already provided you
SCRIPTURE that says these are the four Kingdoms that
arise ON THE EARTH.


Please do not continue to contradict the SCRIPTURE
I provided you. No matter how many times you say
"federations" the Bible contradicts your words and,
thereby, PROVES your theory wrong.


Dan 7:7
After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast,
dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.


Dan 7:23
Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom
upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall
devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it
in pieces.


Jim

 

[5thKingdom]

I asked you:
Where is the Scripture to support the kingdoms
(a) come up at one time and
(b) rule concurrently


Daniel said - `And four great beasts came up from the sea, each different from the other. (Dan. 7: 3)


This verse DOES NOT say the Kingdoms came up at one time
OR that they rule concurrently. Strike one.


`a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, exceedingly strong. It had huge iron teeth; it was devouring, breaking in pieces, and TRAMPLING THE RESIDUE with its feet.` (Dan. 7: 7)


This verse DOES NOT say the Kingdoms came up at one time
OR that they ruled concurrently. Strike two.

(BTW... what are the "residue" that are "trampled" if not
the PREVIOUS Beasts"... a rookie mistake Marilyn)


` I watched till the beast was slain, and its body destroyed and given to the burning flame. As FOR THE REST OF THE BEASTS, they had their dominion taken away, yet their lives were prolonged for a season and a time.` (Dan. 7: 11 & 12)


This verse DOES NOT say the Kingdoms came up at one time
OR that they ruled concurrently. Strike three.


Now... let's talk about the Fourth Beast being
"given to the Burning Flame". Do you even understand
that is the SAME EVENT as the Revelation Beast being
"cast alive into the Lake of Fire"?


What do you do with that FACT?
So far you have only (intentionally) IGNORED it...
is that your game plan - to intentionally ignore all the Scripture
that refutes your theory? Do you imagine that negates the
Scripture?


Jim

 

[BrotherJJ]

Exactly when are the ‘Times of the Gentiles’ according to the classical Dispensational prophetic viewpoint?

“There will be great distress upon the earth and wrath against this people. They will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive among all nations, and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.” (Luke 21:23-24)​

When Jesus returns & the King (Rev 17:14, 19:16) who literally comes from heaven, sets up His government.

Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given:

"""and the government shall be upon his shoulder""":

and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

I don't believe anyone can give you an exact time as to when, here's why:

Matt 24:
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
(NOTE: Only God the Father knows exactly when)

37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
(NOTE: Soon very Soon!)

Some additional context:

Rev 19:
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.​

 

[5thKingdom]

But NOT World Rulers. There has been NO World Ruler since Rome. History clearly shows this. God said they were World Rulers. (Dan. 2: 37 & 38)

I said:
I believe that history shows there have been a couple of
"Kingdoms" (empires) on earth AFTER the Roman Empire fell.


While some may like to PRETEND all empires AFTER Rome are
still PART of Rome... that does not even pass the giggle test.


(1) Now you say (and I quote you)
"There has been NO World Ruler since Rome."


Here is a "news flash" for you Marilyn...
Rome did not rule the WORLD. Not even close.
I bet that hurts.


(2) Then you say (and I quote you again)
"God said they were World Rulers. (Dan. 2: 37 & 38)"


First... Daniel 2:37-38 are ONLY talking about the FIRST
Kingdom, the head of gold. It says absolutely NOTHING
about the other Kingdoms. I hope you just struggling
to keep your delusion alive - and NOT intentionally
incorrectly citing Scripture.


Dan 2:37-38
Thou, O king, art a king of kings: for the God of heaven hath given thee a kingdom, power, and strength, and glory. And wheresoever the children of men dwell, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the heaven hath he given into thine hand, and hath made thee ruler over them all. Thou art this head of gold.


(3) Finally, after noting that you have proven NOTHING
from Scripture so far... in fact the TWO VERSES I provided
at the START are still contradict everything you have said...


I want to REMIND you that I already told you that the
physical/political Kingdoms in Daniel 2 are a "type" or "shadow"
of the spiritual Kingdoms in Daniel 7. This is a very common
practice in the Bible.


And this is PROVEN by the fact that Daniel's Fourth Kingdom
represents the SAME PEOPLE and the SAME EVENTS as the
Revelation Beast and the Great Tribulation "Kingdom of Heaven"
[Mat 25:1]


So you are STILL trying (and failing) to address my FIRST
question... the fun does not even start until you try to address
questions 2, 3, 4 and 5.


I hope you intend to address those questions and not to just
run away and HIDE. As I said before... take your time, but do
not HIDE from the other questions. As of now, everything you
have said is refuted by these TWO verses:


Dan 7:7
After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast,
dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.


Dan 7:23
Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom
upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall
devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it
in pieces.


Jim

 

[Christian Gedge]

So In my eyes when the LORD returns He will fulfill all prophecies to the T and we will see it more clearly in hindsight.

and lasts right until the Rapture of the Body of Christ.

the times of the gentiles will not end until Jesus returns and sets up His Kingdom.

And the final date - when the Lord returns and deals with the world`s armies and their leaders.

When Jesus returns & the King (Rev 17:14, 19:16) who literally comes from heaven, sets up His government.

This seems to be the consensus. You all (and classical disps. generally) seem to be saying that the 'Times of the Gentiles' end at the 'rapture.

Thanks for answering my question everyone.

 

[5thKingdom]

This seems to be the consensus. You all (and classical disps. generally) seem to be saying that the 'Times of the Gentiles' end at the 'rapture.

Thanks for answering my question everyone.

Luk 21:24
And they [the "ten virgins" of Matt 25:1-13] shall fall by the edge
of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and
Jerusalem [the "ten virgins" or LAST "wheat and tares"] shall be
trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles
be fulfilled. [at the END of the Great Tribulation/Rev. Beast]


However... there is a "Season and Time" on earth AFTER
the destruction of the Revelation Beast. This period is shown
in Rev 11:14 and Daniel 7:11-12 and is specifically called the
"time-of-the-end" in Daniel 12:8-10.


Also: note Luke 21:24 is a parallel verse to Matthew 24:15-21
which speaks of Daniel's "Abomination of Desolation"... showing
the EVENT occurs durng Daniel's Fourth Beast/Kingdom.


So now you have your "consensus" and you have Biblical Truth.
Which will you believe?


Jim

 

[Behold]

This seems to be the consensus. You all (and classical disps. generally) seem to be saying that the 'Times of the Gentiles' end at the 'rapture.

Thanks for answering my question everyone.

Well, here is something that no one teaches, who is of the "classical" pre-trib, Theology.

If we say that the Church has to go through the TRIB, then that becomes very odd for many reasons.
Here's one..
In the time of the Gentiles, the CHURCH is created by "justification by FAITH"...>"Salvation is a GIFT".
The GRACE OF GOD< is ...."justified by Faith, without works"..
So, that is how SALVATION is offered in the time of the Gentiles. = GIFT ONLY
If you study salvation in the Trib.......you find that God changes the plan of Salvation.
It becomes, "enduing to the end".. It becomes Faith + WORKS..

So, why would God want those who were Given "the gift of Righteousness"..."Grace THRU FAITH"< without WORKS to now be involved in a LACK OF Grace situation, where you have to also WORK to keep your salvation.

So, is God going to put the "Grace through Faith Body of Christ" into a "faith + works" Tribulation?

Answer.) NOPE.

 

[5thKingdom]

Well, here is something that no one teaches, who is of the "classical" pre-trib, Theology.

Of course no one can give you pre-trib Scriptures because
they do not exist. Why do they not exist? Because the
Great Tribulation and/or Revelation Beast and/or Daniel's
Fourth Beast is about the Last Saints being "overcome"
by the Antichrist.


The Last Saints are part of the "ten virgins" of Matt 25:1-13
that "went forth" following the Antichrist and they are part of
the ten "kings/horns" of Daniel 7:24-25 (below) that are ruled
by the "Little Horn" (Antichrist) and they are part of the ten
"kings/horns" of Revelation 17 (below) who all "agree to
give their Kingdom to the Beast".


The PURPOSE of Revelation Beast/Great Tribulation/Fourth Beast
is to bring Judgment on the Last "wheat" (wise virgins) during the
1st Woe/Fifth Trumpet and then bring Judgment on the last "tares"
(foolish virgins) during the 2nd Woe/Sixth Trumpet. Revelation
shows TWO BEASTS for this reason.


Generally speaking, people who believe in a "rapture" are only
not understanding verses talking about the "Final Harvest"...
where one is taken (wise virgins) and one is left (foolish virgins)


So NOBODY will EVER be able to give you SCRIPTURE showing
a rapture (much less a pre-trib rapture) because those verses
do not exist in the Bible.

But you already knew that... right?

Jim


Dan 7:24-25
And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another [Little horn] shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first [ten horns/kings], and he shall subdue three kings.
[representing the wise virgins] And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they [the ten "kings/horns"] shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
[representing the duration of the Great Tribulation/Rev Beast]


Rev 17:12-13
And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet [during the Great Commission]; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast. These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.


Rev 17:17
For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree,
and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.

.

 

[Behold]

Of course no one can give you pre-trib Scriptures because
they do not exist. Why do they not exist? Because the
Great Tribulation and/or Revelation Beast and/or Daniel's
Fourth Beast is about the Last Saints being "overcome"
by the Antichrist.

No one is "overcome" in the Time of the Gentiles, who is born again.

Ane because salvation is not "Grace through faith", in the Great Trib, you have those who will not "endure to the end"..
Thats true.
However, the born again dont have to endure to the end, as the born again are this..

"As Christ is so are the born again, in this WORLD".

"time of the Gentiles"...

 

[Behold]

Luk 21:24
And they [the "ten virgins" of Matt 25:1-13]
Jim

There are no "10 Virgins" in the "time of the Gentiles".

There is just the "body of Christ" who is the BRIDE.

 

[5thKingdom]

Of course no one can give you pre-trib Scriptures because
they do not exist.

The Last Saints are part of the "ten virgins" of Matt 25:1-13
that "went forth" following the Antichrist and they are part of
the ten "kings/horns" of Daniel 7:24-25 (below) that are ruled
by the "Little Horn" (Antichrist) and they are part of the ten
"kings/horns" of Revelation 17 (below) who all "agree to
give their Kingdom to the Beast".


The PURPOSE of Revelation Beast/Great Tribulation/Fourth Beast
is to bring Judgment on the Last "wheat" (wise virgins) during the
1st Woe/Fifth Trumpet and then bring Judgment on the last "tares"
(foolish virgins) during the 2nd Woe/Sixth Trumpet. Revelation
shows TWO BEASTS for this reason.


Generally speaking, people who believe in a "rapture" are only
not understanding verses talking about the "Final Harvest"...
where one is taken (wise virgins) and one is left (foolish virgins)


So NOBODY will EVER be able to give you SCRIPTURE showing
a rapture (much less a pre-trib rapture) because those verses
do not exist in the Bible.

But you already knew that... right?

Jim


Dan 7:24-25
And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another [Little horn] shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first [ten horns/kings], and he shall subdue three kings.
[representing the wise virgins] And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they [the ten "kings/horns"] shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
[representing the duration of the Great Tribulation/Rev Beast]


Rev 17:12-13
And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet [during the Great Commission]; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast. These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.


Rev 17:17
For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree,
and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.

.

 

[5thKingdom]

No one is "overcome" in the Time of the Gentiles, who is born again.

You do understand (I hope) there is a time when the Great Commission is finished... when the "testimony" of the Two Witnesses (church) is "finished"... when all the Saints have been "sealed". And THAT is when the Great Tribulation/Revelation Beast begins. That is the time when
Jesus said "no man can work"... and the beginning of the four "watches of the night". The Lord even NAMED each of the four "watches" and the Lord Returns about half-way through the FOURTH "watch" which is why we have references about the DURATION of the Revelation Beast being shown as 3.5 "times" and 3.5 "days" and 3.5 "years" (42 mo) and 3.5 "watches of the night".


Joh 9:4
I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day:
the night cometh, when no man can work.


Rev 7:3
Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.


Rev 11:7
And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.


Luk 23:29
For, behold, the days are coming [during the Great Trib/Rev Beast], in the which they shall say, Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck.
[because all the Saints have been "sealed"]


Jim

 

[Behold]

You do understand (I hope) there is a time when the Great Commission is finished... when the "testimony" of the Two Witnesses (church) is "finished"... when all the Saints have been "sealed".


Jim

2 witnesses is the "church".
Ok, now i see you.
You're a Jehovah's Witness.
Thats the issue with your theology, as that is what the JW's Teach.

also..

Im already sealed.
All the born again are sealed until the day of Redemption.
How are we sealed?
"Christ IN YOU the hope of Glory".

 

[5thKingdom]

2 witnesses is the "church".
Ok, now i see you.
You're a Jehovah's Witness.
.

The Two Witnesses are called "candlesticks" and "olive trees"
do some real BIBLE STUDY and learn what most mature Christians
already know... those terms represent the church.

I know nothing about Jehovah's Witnesses but I do know that
5 minutes of BIBLE STUDY reveals WHO is represented by the
terms "candlesticks" and "olive trees".

Why is this "news" to you?

.