Classical Dispensationalist Only What is the Dispensational view of the ‘Times of the Gentiles’?

[Christian Gedge]

Exactly when are the ‘Times of the Gentiles’ according to the classical Dispensational prophetic viewpoint?

“There will be great distress upon the earth and wrath against this people. They will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive among all nations, and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.” (Luke 21:23-24)​

I am looking for a precise start date, and a defining finish event. Also, a brief summary of the Dispensational futurist thinking concerning this prophecy would be useful.

I wont be disagreeable - just want to understand what people are saying.
Thanks.

 

[Brian Mcnamee]

HI some see it as Daniel's 70th week where the 69 weeks were to the day Jesus rode in as Messiah but was rejected than the people of the prince who shall come destroyed the city and the sanctuary. This gap in the 70 weeks some see as the time of the Gentiles. Now Israel is back and has Jerusalem as its capital so some say it is over. The Book of Rev says however that it ( jerusalem) will be trampled again for 42 months in the tribulation .
“But leave out the court which is outside the temple, and do not measure it, for it has been given to the Gentiles. And they will tread the holy city underfoot for forty-two months. This does tie in with Daniels 70th week. So In my eyes when the LORD returns He will fulfill all prophecies to the T and we will see it more clearly in hindsight.

 

[Christian Gedge]

So, if Im reading you right, there are 2 thoughts?

1. Palm Sunday (when the 69th week ended) to AD 70
2. Palm Sunday to AD 1967 (when Jerusalem was retaken by Israel)

Which of these views would be considered 'classic dispensational' ?

 

[Behold]

The "time of the Gentiles" began when the Cross was raised.
Its reflected in this verse.....John 3:16.

Jesus the JEW, came : to the "house of Israel" and "signs are for the JEWS" and this was the situation right until "For God so loved the WORLD that He GAVE, That WHOSOEVER WILL COME< may come".... So, that is no longer just dealing with the Jews...(House of Israel) is it.

So, if you want the Theological road map, then.... the time of the Gentiles began when Jesus said "It is finished" and lasts right until the Rapture of the Body of Christ.

It really kicked into overdrive when Jesus called Saul to be the Apostle Paul, and took him away for a few years by himself, and taught him all the church doctrine that he wrote in His epistles for the "body of Christ", as "the apostle to the Gentiles"...etc.

If you want the wide angle lens on it, then its when the foreknowledge of God said that He "found fault" with the Old Testament and the Old Covenant, (Laws & Commandments) because these could not....> GIVE righteousness.
So, God cames as Jesus in the Flesh and gave you His Righteousness, as "the gift of righteousness". (Salvation) (Born again).
So, the NT, is the new reveal of How God revealed this change = " the law shall have dominion over you"....INTO = "for you are no longer under the law but you are under GRACE".

 

[food4thought]

Exactly when are the ‘Times of the Gentiles’ according to the classical Dispensational prophetic viewpoint?

“There will be great distress upon the earth and wrath against this people. They will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive among all nations, and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.” (Luke 21:23-24)​

I am looking for a precise start date, and a defining finish event. Also, a brief summary of the Dispensational futurist thinking concerning this prophecy would be useful.

I wont be disagreeable - just want to understand what people are saying.
Thanks.

It is my understanding that the "times of the gentiles" began when the line of David temporarily ceased from ruling over Jerusalem... if I am remembering correctly, this would be the final conquest of Jerusalem by Nebuchadnezzar, when he destroyed the city and the temple (after the first and second conquest he set up a descendant of David as king over the land). I think this is when the gentile dominion over Jerusalem began in earnest. Even though the Hasmoneans set up a relatively independent rule for a time, they were not ruled by the line of David as God promised. If my view is correct, the times of the gentiles will not end until Jesus returns and sets up His Kingdom.

Thank you for the interesting and thought provoking question, Gedge. I had not attempted to set an exact start and end date to "the times of the gentiles" before. I think my view makes sense, but it is my own, not something I gleaned from a classical dispensationalist writer... I could be misrepresenting the classical dispensational view (I am still learning). Anyways, I hope this helps.

God bless you;
Michael

 

[Behold]

It is my understanding that the "times of the gentiles" began when the line of David temporarily ceased from ruling over Jerusalem...
Michael

Jesus came as a Divine MAN, to the "house of Israel". Not to the Gentiles.
In Matthew 15:26, Jesus told a gentile that same fact.
So, until the Cross, God was not dealing with Gentiles.
He is now, specifically.
When the GrtTrb starts, that stops.

 

[rockytopva]

The purpose of Revelation was to reveal what was going to come to pass....

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John.... - Revelation 1:1

Which all of this was to heavy for just ordinary churches in Asia that did not amount to anything....

The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches. Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks; - Revelation 1:20 - Revelation 2:1

Ephesus - Messianic - Beginning with the Apostle to the Circumcision, Peter
Smyrna - Martyr - Beginning with the Apostle to the Un-Circumcision, Paul
Pergamos - Orthodoxy formed in this time... Pergos is a tower... Needed in the dark ages
Thyatira - Catholicism formed in this time - The spirit of Jezebel is to control and to dominate.
Sardis - Protestantism formed in this time- A sardius is a gem - elegant yet hard and rigid
Philadelphia - Wesleyism formed in this time - To be sanctioned is to acquire it with love.
Laodicea - Charismatic movement formed in this time - Beginning with DL Moody, the first to make money off of ministry

Candlesticks - Seven church congregations
Stars - Individuals within the congregations, all held in the right hand of Christ
Seals - The seven seals sealed each congregation within the lambs book of life

And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon. - Revelation 5:4

If this interpretation is not correct why all the ado?

Now... This is not saying the Catholic church is Thyatirian, bun that they were influenced by the spirit of the age. When I was growing up I would attend Baptist, Catholic, and Pentecostal churches. It seemed to me that while visiting the Catholic church was not at all a Thyatierian experience as the people were all good an friendly. The Holy Family Catholic church in Saginaw, Michigan. Just walking through the doors for me as a child was an incredible experience!

It is also of interest that so many Messianic are re-forming what I believe to be in spirit of first church age congregations.

 

[rockytopva]

And to quote an earlier thread....

"The bible, especially Revelation, is written with much metaphor. I cannot believe one can study Revelation, and the bible, and see the same perspective as another fellow believer. You will agree and disagree on the interpretation of different passages."

Revelation and biblical metaphors

 

[food4thought]

Jesus came as a Divine MAN, to the "house of Israel". Not to the Gentiles.
In Matthew 15:26, Jesus told a gentile that same fact.
So, until the Cross, God was not dealing with Gentiles.
He is now, specifically.
When the GrtTrb starts, that stops.

Hi, Behold, thanks for the reply! That is another possible interpretation of "the times of the gentiles". I considered this view before I posted... The problem it runs into is that apparently no gentiles were saved until Peter went to the house of Cornelius in Acts 9, many years after the resurrection. Also, the church was predominantly Jewish until well into the 1st century.

The question is who ruled over Judah and Jerusalem at the time of the resurrection? The Romans. What about when Cornelius was saved? The Romans. Right now the nation Israel does control Jerusalem, but not the temple mount, which is controlled by the gentile Muslims. The temple mount will be trampled by the gentiles in the great tribulation (Revelation 11:2). Gentile domination of Judah and Jerusalem can be traced all the way back to Nebuchadnezzar's desolation of Jerusalem, and will not completely end until Jesus returns.

Also, I did a little research after I posted and found that the Bible Knowledge Commentary, published by the Dallas Theological Seminary (which, from what I understand, is probably the leading authority on Classical Dispensationalism), seems to agree with my post:

Luke 21:20-24
Jesus then returned to the disciples’ original question about when the temple would be destroyed. In these five verses He noted that Gentile domination included the destruction of Jerusalem which would come about when the city was surrounded by armies. Gentile domination would continue until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled (Luk_21:24). The times of the Gentiles’ domination over Jerusalem actually began when the Babylonians took the city and the nation into Captivity in 586 b.c. Jerusalem will again fall under Gentile domination in the Tribulation (Zec_14:1-2) just before the Messiah returns to restore Jerusalem. It is that restoration of which Jesus spoke next (Luk_21:25-28).
​

It very well may be that this commentary is the source of the view I thought was my own construct... I do own the commentary, but don't remember for sure whether I had read this section of it before or not. Also, I am not certain that 586 BC is the third conquest of Jerusalem by the Babylonians... it may be referring to the first conquest... and it makes no mention of a connection with the rulership of the Davidic line.

Hope this helps, and God bless you;
Michael

 

[readywriter]

Exactly when are the ‘Times of the Gentiles’ according to the classical Dispensational prophetic viewpoint?

“There will be great distress upon the earth and wrath against this people. They will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive among all nations, and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.” (Luke 21:23-24)​

I am looking for a precise start date, and a defining finish event. Also, a brief summary of the Dispensational futurist thinking concerning this prophecy would be useful.

I wont be disagreeable - just want to understand what people are saying.
Thanks.

Hello @Christian Gedge,

I have read that 'Gentile dominion' is co-extensive and co-terminative with 'the treading down' of Jerusalem by the Gentiles' (Luke 21:24).

Daniel 2 makes it certain that Gentile dominion continues unbroken unto the coming of the Lord, when the whole image, not some portion of it, will be broken to pieces (Dan. 2:35 & 45).

'Then was the iron, the clay, the brass,
the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together,
and became like the chaff of the summer threshing-floors;
and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them:
and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain,
and filled the whole earth.'
(Dan 2:35)

'Forasmuch as thou sawest
that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands,
and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold;
the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter:
and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.'
(Dan 2:45)

In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Behold]

Exactly when are the ‘Times of the Gentiles’ according to the classical Dispensational prophetic viewpoint?

“There will be great distress upon the earth and wrath against this people. They will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive among all nations, and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.” (Luke 21:23-24)​

I am looking for a precise start date, and a defining finish event. Also, a brief summary of the Dispensational futurist thinking concerning this prophecy would be useful.

I wont be disagreeable - just want to understand what people are saying.
Thanks.

Start with Jesus dying on the Cross, and end with the start of the Great Trib.
All that is in between, is the "Time of the Gentiles". With Paul as the "apostle to the Gentiles".

 

[Marilyn C]

Exactly when are the ‘Times of the Gentiles’ according to the classical Dispensational prophetic viewpoint?

“There will be great distress upon the earth and wrath against this people. They will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive among all nations, and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.” (Luke 21:23-24)​

I am looking for a precise start date, and a defining finish event. Also, a brief summary of the Dispensational futurist thinking concerning this prophecy would be useful.

I wont be disagreeable - just want to understand what people are saying.
Thanks.

I`m not sure if I am a classic dispensationalist. But here goes -

My understanding is related to King Nebuchadnezzar`s dream of the Great Image. It reveals the 5 Gentile World Rulers - Babylon, Medes & Persians, Greece, Rome and finally in our day, Islam. (Isa. 31: 8 the Assyrian / Islam).

God has judged four of those kingdoms and He will also judge the last when it arises and takes over rulership of the world, (by deception at first then with horrendous, terrifying force.)

So the precise start date - King Neb. (Dan. 2: 37)
And the final date - when the Lord returns and deals with the world`s armies and their leaders. (Rev. 19: 15, Dan. 7: 23 - 27)

 

[Christian Gedge]

Interesting that you should place Islam after Rome. But it makes sense and is historically correct.

 

[5thKingdom]

My understanding is related to King Nebuchadnezzar`s dream of the Great Image. It reveals the 5 Gentile World Rulers - Babylon, Medes & Persians, Greece, Rome and finally in our day, Islam. (Isa. 31: 8 the Assyrian / Islam).

God has judged four of those kingdoms and He will also judge the last when it arises and takes over rulership of the world, (by deception at first then with horrendous, terrifying force.)

(1) Your first problem is that Daniel 7 shows FOUR (4)
empires on earth... with the Lord's Return happening at
the destruction of the Fourth Kingdom. How do you
harmonize your theory about there being five (5)
Kingdoms?


(2) Your second problem is the "Season and Time" on earth
AFTER the destruction of the Fourth Kingdom of Daniel 7


How do you harmonize Daniel 7:11-12 into your theory?
Recognizing the Fourth Beast = Revelation Beast = Great Tribulation
"Kingdom of Heaven" [Mat 25:1]


-----------------------------------------------------------

Or do you reject each of those periods represent the SAME
people and the SAME events?

---------------------------------------------------------------


In Daniel 7:11-12 the Fourth Beast is "given to the Burning Flame"
which is the same EVENT as the Revelation Beast being "cast alive
into the Lake of Fire" [Rev 19:20]


In Daniel 7:11-12 we are told the remaining Beasts have
"their lives prolonged for a Season and Time" after the Fourth
Beast is cast into the Burning Flame (representing the LOF)


Do you suggest the the people of the Babylonian Empire and
the Persian Empire and the Grecian Empire all continue to live
on earth AFTER the Roman Empire (Fourth Beast) has been
"cast alive into the Lake of Fire"?


And that an empire of Islam appear AFTER the Fourth Beast
has been "cast alive into the Lake of Fire"?


(3) Have you considered the idea that the physical/political
"Kingdoms" in Daniel 2 are "shadows" or "types" of the four (4)
Kingdoms of Daniel 7 and the four (4) spiritual "Kingdoms of Heaven"
which Jesus specifically NAMED?


(4) Have you considered that both Daniel 2 and Daniel 7
are showing the SAME KINGDOMS... only Daniel 2 shows
the FIRST KINGDOM from a pre-fall and post-fall perspective?


If the FOURTH Kingdom is the Great Tribulation
"Kingdom of Heaven" that Jesus NAMED in Mat 25:1


And the THIRD Kingdom is the Christian
"Kingdom of Heaven" that Jesus NAMED in Mat 13


And the SECOND Kingdom is the Jewish
"Kingdom of Heaven" Jesus NAMED in Mat 22:2-7 and 21:43


And the FIRST Kingdom is the Pre-Flood Kngdom containing
all the Saints from Adam to Noah. With Daniel 2 showing both
the pre-fall and the post-fall state of the Kingdom.


---------


(5) Finally... do you simply REJECT Daniel 12:4 and 12:8-10
as being false. Since those verses PROMISE the Truth about
Daniel's prophecies would remain "closed-up" and "sealed" to
all the Saints until the Last Saints living in the "time-of-the-end"
(aka, the "Season and Time" after the Fourth Beast)... but your
theory about Babylon and Persia and Greece and Rome has been
taught for at least the last 600 years.


If the Bible PROMISED the truth would remain "sealed" then any
and all "interpretations" of Daniel 2 and Daniel 7 made BEFORE
the Last Saints would automatically be proven FALSE.. or else
the Bible would be proven false. It is really as simple as that.


Really... how presumptuous are men to believe they can
understand the TRUTH about Daniel 2 and Daniel 7 when
the Bible PROMISED that TRUTH would remain "sealed"?


Now, I understand people living 600 years ago THOUGHT
they were the last generation... so they would NOT have
seen a contradiction with them understanding "sealed"
mysteries. But obviously people preaching those same
"interpretations" today cannot claim the same privilege.


I respectfully request you address all five (5) of these points
before you presume to understand the (Biblical) TRUTH about
these prophecies.


Thank you

Jim

 

[Marilyn C]

(1) Your first problem is that Daniel 7 shows FOUR (4)
empires on earth... with the Lord's Return happening at
the destruction of the Fourth Kingdom. How do you
harmonize your theory about there being five (5)
Kingdoms?

Thank you

Jim

I`ll address this first.

In Daniel Chapter 7 we see four kingdoms, that come up one at a time but rule concurrently. thus they are NOT each world Rulers but great Federations of our time. The last one matches the final kingdom in Dan. 2. God is giving us more details here in Dan. 7 and NOT a repeat of Dan. 2.

 

[5thKingdom]

And the final date - when the Lord returns and deals with the world`s armies and their leaders. (Rev. 19: 15, Dan. 7: 23 - 27)

BTW... Daniel 7:23-27 is talking about the destruction of
the FOURTH KINGDOM... not a fifth.

With all due respect, apparently this Biblical FACT
destroys all of your theories noted above.

Jim

 

[5thKingdom]

I`ll address this first.

In Daniel Chapter 7 we see four kingdoms, that come up one at a time but rule concurrently. thus they are NOT each world Rulers but great Federations of our time. The last one matches the final kingdom in Dan. 2. God is giving us more details here in Dan. 7 and NOT a repeat of Dan. 2.

.

Where is the Scripture to support the kingdoms
(a) come up at one time and
(b) rule concurrently

And how can you have it BOTH ways... saying the Fourth Kingdom
in Daniel 7 is the same as the FIFTH Kingdom in Daniel 2 which YOU
claim are NOT ruling concurrently at the same time. See the irony?

And then you have this:

Dan 7:7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.


Dan 7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.


And PLEASE do not ignore my other questions....
that would be like running and hiding... which is not the "fruit"
of any Saint or Bible "teacher".

I look forward to you addressing EACH question.

Jim
.

 

[5thKingdom]

I`ll address this first.

Addressing the first question by REPEATING what someone
told you while they are only REPEATING what someone told them
is not "Bible study" and certainly not "harmony of Scripture".

I look forward to your response to ALL the questions because
your response to the first question has been "taught" for hundreds
of years... which conflicts with the Daniel 12:8-10 question.

Please take your time.. but address all the questions.

Sincerely
Jim
.

 

[5thKingdom]

Interesting that you should place Islam after Rome. But it makes sense and is historically correct.

I believe that history shows there have been a couple of
"Kingdoms" (empires) on earth AFTER the Roman Empire fell.

While some may like to PRETEND all empires AFTER Rome are
still PART of Rome... that does not even pass the giggle test.

Jim

 

[Christian Gedge]

I'm sure there have been more than a couple of "Kingdoms" (empires) on earth AFTER the Roman Empire fell. However, I understand the empires to be referring to those that arise in the same general area - all trampling underfoot Jerusalem. Hence, Babylon, Persia, Greece, Rome, Islam have that in common.

Lets see what Marilyn has to say?