Futurist Only What is the chronological order of Revelation?

Douggg said:

To get the animal sacrifices going as quickly as possible, a temporary sanctuary building will be built.

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animal sacrifice? So what?, the megalomaniac pretend god will demand the temple be fully rebuilt before he will set foot in it. A tent just won't do, only the best for him.

Jamdoc said:

well Isaiah 63 makes it clear


I don't know what exactly the 144k are doing or where they are during this, but they're not there to help Jesus dish out the wrath of God.

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No one else died on the Cross as the Atonement. Are you saying there were no disciples nor apostles at that time? God always takes all the glory and credit. That does not mean there are no humans and no angels involved in the final harvest. The winepress of the Second Coming is the same point as the Cross was at the first coming. The Messiah on the Cross. The Prince with an iron rod crushing His enemies at the Second Coming. The symbolism being a sickle or sword.

Sorn said:

When did he get here?

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At the Second Coming. The only sign of His coming is listed in Matthew 24 and Revelation 6. Zechariah 14 states He comes to the Mount of Olives.

Jamdoc said:

Supernatural events are not part of the Great Tribulation.

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Supernatural in the fact that Antichrist/Satan will be perfoming miracles in the sight of men. And it's by those miracles that he is able to deceive most of the world -thinking he's savior. Paul says he will be disguised as an angel of light. And that's what the armour is for, to fight the wiles (trickery) of the devil. And to be able to stand in that "evil day".

Revelation 12:11 "And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death

And that's why Christ says if they say Christ is here or there, believe it not. That's the true deception of the tribulation. Many will fall away at that time and be harvested out of season instead of waiting on the true Christ. That's why they'll be wanting to hide/escape. We can all agree or disagree on certain aspects but that is the most important information that a Christian can put in their mind in case it happens in their lifetime. And this is even the first seal. The first rider on the white horse is a fake. One has to wait on the true Christ.

Supernatural events will most definitely be part of he very end times and be an ability of the ac/beast combo. In part this is why I think these events are quite some time of yet.

Can you imagine if some people started doing serious miracles now, what skepticism it would arouse, not to mention the investigations by various world govt's and organizations.
People would want to know the physics behind it all and be able to reproduce it, at least in a lab etc.

But if the future some scientific breakthrough illuminates some other reality then the world public may be a lot more accepting (and importantly trusting) of miracles that may be explained as being possible in part by a connection to this other reality that science has somehow given validity too. Just my opinion as i just don't think a miracle performing ac/beast combo would get traction in todays current world

Jamdoc said:

I split it in half. The narratives are consistent that way, in the same order, without things like Jesus taking control of the world then giving it back to Satan for 42 months.
I'm also very firmly pre wrath, or post trib-pre wrath, or "6th seal rapture" as it gets called sometimes.

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The only reason there is a 42 month hold, given to Satan, is that there are still souls left after the final harvest, the gleanings.

No one is beheaded during the Trumpets and Thunders. There is no beast nor mark of the beast prior to the 7th Trumpet. All this is falsely viewed as "leading up" to the Second Coming. That is as totally wrong as a "Millennium" leading up to the Second Coming.

There is no leading up to the Second Coming. It is instant and without warning. The only sign is when it happens. John gives us 4 alliterative "horses" that seem to imply some kind of warning. But even Zechariah 14 claims there is war prior to the Second Coming. Jesus says there will be war and rumors of war all the way until the end. John says when the 4th Seal is opened there will be war and 2 billion people killed. Yet can war be leading up to the Second Coming. We had 2 major world wars, then Israel became a Nation.

We have been lulled to sleep with constant war and constant rumors. There is still the point, do those 2 billion in the 4th Seal also include the church removed at the Second Coming. What if like Paul stated not all of Israel are Israel, and not all who claim to be the church are the church? Currently the church is in the same condition Israel was in at the first coming. Many have remained faithful, but some have become self serving shepherds. The more power and authority the "church" amasses, the more corruption like the Sanhedren will be her downfall. Sure there are signs. Yet the same signs have been consistent for hundreds of years. The only big game changer was the restoration of Israel as a nation.

The removal of the church could be the greater part of the first 2 billion souls harvested. I think if John could have given us the 7 Thunders, each set of events would see 2 billion souls harvested in each event. In the Trumpets we see a third of the remaining 6 billion also killed. That is also 2 billion. Revelation is chronological with a systematic removal of Adam's sinful corruptible flesh and blood.

Does God plan on given Satan 42 months? No. The death of His saints by beheading is not a planned event. Yet in the last 100 years the church has been taught to wait for an AC who would do just that, and that the church would have to endure until the end. The plan is to see the 7th Trumpet complete in a week of days from Sunday to Sunday. Then the Millennium starts. Those 42 months are an interruption to that plan, not part of a plan.

What if 2 billion do leave in the rapture, and 2 billion killed before the Second Coming? John is not accounting for the church at all. What if by the time the 7th Trumpet sounds, only millions are left on earth, and none of them will decide to reject Satan? We actually do not know how many die during the Thunders, because John was not allowed to convey that information to the church. Then there is just the winepress, and no 42 months at all.

You ask why there is 42 months after Jesus has a successful harvest? Why hand Satan the throne in Jerusalem after sitting on it for a few months during the GT, Jacob's trouble, and the Thunders that have not been disclosed? Because God is longsuffering, and has allowed this time, because some on earth will still reject Satan and by faith, with an act of having their head chopped off, remain in the Lamb's book of life, and avoid the mark that states time is up for Adam's flesh and blood. The mark is the 7th Trumpet expiration date. Time is up at the sound of the 7th Trumpet, Revelation 10:6-7. All earth has been brought under the control of Christ as Prince. But if there are any more gleanings left, then Daniel 9:27 is when Jesus declares 42 months handed to Satan, and utter desolation, as Jesus leaves the throne for Mt. Zion with the 144k. Only then, 42 months later, we see God's wrath poured out in the 7 vials, for those 3.5 days the 2 witnesses lay dead in Jerusalem. The Chronology is just as John wrote. There are specific reasons why everything in Revelation is written just how John wrote it. The book has always applied to every single generation of the last 1992 years. Human theology and popular opinions not withstanding, God's Word remains faithful.

Should we have retained the knowledge given to Moses concerning the 4th Commandment? I am not sure, because somehow the Hebrews thought that the 6,000 year mark was between 500 and 1,000 AD. I think they did know something even though such Rememberance was lost to history. Now since Usher, we conclude a new calendar that is about 1,000 years behind the Hebrew accounting. Simply stated, no one interprets Genesis 2 correctly. That is where the discrepancy can be located.

Did Paul's influence eclipse such knowledge and that is why the church was literally placed in the dark ages? Paul clearly pointing out Adam's fall, and thus "a beginning". Or did Satan himself do exactly what Paul declared (2 Thessalonians 2:1-10), and Satan slipped in a little knowledge here and there and now with modern science we have left God's Word for mere human understanding, with a "big bang" and some "14 billion year old creation" instead of what the Hebrews claim, we have had only 7,000 years of human history, and humans were there at the very beginning?

Sorn said:

animal sacrifice? So what?, the megalomaniac pretend god will demand the temple be fully rebuilt before he will set foot in it. A tent just won't do, only the best for him.

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There is no such event. Satan is a created angel, not a "megalomaniac pretend god". Besides, Satan is the beast with two horns speaking as a dragon. Only after the FP is presented, will Satan come and claim that throne. Jesus as Prince, Himself, will have already established that throne in Jerusalem. Matthew 25:31 takes place way before Satan is given a single second on that throne, if ever.

Timtofly said:

There is no such event. Satan is a created angel, not a "megalomaniac pretend god". Besides, Satan is the beast with two horns speaking as a dragon. Only after the FP is presented, will Satan come and claim that throne. Jesus as Prince, Himself, will have already established that throne in Jerusalem. Matthew 25:31 takes place way before Satan is given a single second on that throne, if ever.

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The "megalomaniac pretend god" i was referring to is the antichrist

Jeffwhosoever said:

As I understand Scripture, there are two second comings. Jesus comes at the beginning of Tribulation in secret as a thief in the night (or middle of tribulation or prior to the wrath called the pre-wrath rapture),

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I used to believe that as well until after further study and reading past 1st Thessalonians 4:17 we see the thief in the night brings sudden destruction to those unaware, it's not some whisking away in secret.

This is all the same subject with chapter 4 going into 5. We know there were no chapters back then and Paul is still talking about our gathering back to him.

I Thessalonians 4:17 "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

I Thessalonians 4:18 "Wherefore comfort one another with these words."

I Thessalonians 5:1 "But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

I Thessalonians 5:2 "For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night."

I Thessalonians 5:3 "For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape

The false sense of peace and safety will be brought on by Antichrist/Satan. When the true Christ arrives people will be wanting to hide but as verse 3 states they shall not escape -God's wrath.

JulieB67 said:

Supernatural in the fact that Antichrist/Satan will be perfoming miracles in the sight of men. And it's by those miracles that he is able to deceive most of the world -thinking he's savior. Paul says he will be disguised as an angel of light. And that's what the armour is for, to fight the wiles (trickery) of the devil. And to be able to stand in that "evil day".

Revelation 12:11 "And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death

And that's why Christ says if they say Christ is here or there, believe it not. That's the true deception of the tribulation. Many will fall away at that time and be harvested out of season instead of waiting on the true Christ. That's why they'll be wanting to hide/escape. We can all agree or disagree on certain aspects but that is the most important information that a Christian can put in their mind in case in happens in their lifetime. And this is even the first seal. The first rider on the white horse is a fake. One has to wait on the true Christ.

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okay sure but what I meant is that massive earthquakes, meteor impacts, and demonic armies aren't a part of the Great Tribulation, they're part of the wrath of God, those things are distinct, which is the point.

Sorn said:

Supernatural events will most definitely be part of he very end times and be an ability of the ac/beast combo. In part this is why I think these events are quite some time of yet.

Can you imagine if some people started doing serious miracles now, what skepticism it would arouse, not to mention the investigations by various world govt's and organizations.
People would want to know the physics behind it all and be able to reproduce it, at least in a lab etc.

But if the future some scientific breakthrough illuminates some other reality then the world public may be a lot more accepting (and importantly trusting) of miracles that may be explained as being possible in part by a connection to this other reality that science has somehow given validity too. Just my opinion as i just don't think a miracle performing ac/beast combo would get traction in todays current world

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What I meant is that the wrath of God events, the trumpets and vials, are not part of the Great Tribulation.
that's a misunderstanding of what Jesus meant when He said Great Tribulation. Because what Jesus said in Matthew 24, is that AFTER the midpoint, the Abomination of Desolation, there will be Great Tribulation, and then after the tribulation, the sun and moon will darken. That's the 6th seal in Revelation 6.
so it's not a "7 year tribulation" by any means.

Jeffwhosoever said:

Couldn't 1 Thessalonians chapter 4 be referring to the rapture of the church and Thhessaolians chapter 5 refer to the second coming visibly for all the world to see? Verse 2 seems to suggest that like the pre-tribulation rapture of the church, the post-tribulation coming of Christ to make war and defeat the beast, antichrist, and false messiah (the unholy trinity I've heard it called) also happens suddenly.

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I think Julie will agree with me if maybe on nothing else, but this.. the rapture is the second coming, the first thing that happens is Jesus descends from heaven, then the dead are resurrected, finally the rapture occurs, and carrying into 1 Thessalonians 5, it's the wrath of God.
There is no rapture prior to the second coming, and the second coming that Paul talks about is very noisy and very visible. There will be no need to disguise it as something else or explain away "sudden disappearances" Revelation 6:15-17 show that the people on earth are very much aware of exactly what is happening, but they still won't repent.
You see it's not enough to believe God exists, or believe that Jesus exists. Or even that you are a sinner who deserves God's wrath.
It's believing that God is good, and that God has provided the atonement for your sins for you through the death of Jesus.
Many people cannot get to that step, it seems irresponsible to have someone else be punished for what we did, and many people think we can "earn" salvation through our own works, or practice some "faith + works" salvation model.
So yes, the rapture is an awesome, overt display, and everyone sees it and knows what happens next, God's wrath. Revelation 6:17

Jeffwhosoever said:

Can you please explain why demonic armies are not part of the Great Tribulation? My understanding of Scripture suggests that the first half of tribulation's 7 years are 3.5 years after the antichrist makes a peace treaty with Israel, then the second half of tribulation's 7 years (both of which are the same as Daniel's 70th week) is the outpouring of God's wrath, which Revelation 3 says that the church will be saved from that time? The mid point (or so I understand thus far) begins the Great Tribulation when the Antichrist will break the peace treaty and attack Israel, which then unleashes the wrath of God which is all supernatural driven events including the release of the demons that up until the mid point were held back by the Holy Spirit.

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It's the timing Jesus gave in Matthew 24 paired with comparing scripture to scripture using Revelation.
Jesus defined the Great Tribulation as starting after the midpoint, and declared that the sun and moon go dark after it. That's the 6th seal in Revelation 6. That's the only time the sun and moon go dark in that book.
So logic. Jesus says that happens after the tribulation. That means everything taking place after it is no longer the Great Tribulation, but rather something else. That is the wrath of God.
That means Jesus had a definition for Tribulation that meant something different than what most people assume which is "bad things happen". Jesus meant a very specific "bad thing happens"
and I believe these mark the Great Tribulation, going with that timing.

Revelation 6

9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

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Revelation 12

13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

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Now yes, this does involve supernatural, I suppose I was wrong to make a blanket statement, i was just trying to distinguish between the Great Tribulation and the wrath of God, using the timing Jesus gave.

Revelation 13

7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
9 If any man have an ear, let him hear.
10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.
11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

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Daniel 7

19 Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast, which was diverse from all the others, exceeding dreadful, whose teeth were of iron, and his nails of brass; which devoured, brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with his feet;
20 And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows.
21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.
23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.
24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.
25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

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So you see.. what follows specifically after the Antichrist arises is not just "bad thing happens" but specifically persecution, specifically war against the saints.

See what follows the 6th seal in Revelation

Revelation 7

9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

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So you see, after the 6th seal, but before the 7 trumpets, there's this massive sudden multitude in heaven, and John recognizes them as those who came out of great tribulation. That means the great tribulation, happened prior to this. Nothing about locust swarms or asteroid impacts of mountains on fire that they overcame... but the last thing they overcame, was the persecution of the 5th seal, before their redemption came at the 6th seal.

Think this is parenthetical and this is a "flash forward"?
Well, if that's the case, and since you recognize that there is parallel between the trumpets and vials, then surely this wouldn't happen before the vials in the second parallel narrative.. would it?

Well Revelation 14:14-20 shows Jesus in the clouds and 2 harvests, 1 done by Jesus, not specified to be put through the wrath of God, and the second harvest done by an angel and those are put through the wrath of God.

Then this happens in Revelation 15

1 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.
2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.
3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.
4 Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.
5 And after that I looked, and, behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened:
6 And the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles.
7 And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.

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So you see.. consistently.. in between Jesus being on the clouds, and the wrath of God, the saints are in heaven, having overcome great tribulation, and the mark of the beast.

Consistently. You can't say "Revelation 15 is parenthetical, it's a flash forward"
Because they're showing the angels receiving the 7 last plagues WHILE the saints are in heaven having overcome the mark of the beast THEN the angels are sent out to deliver the plagues.

This is the reason why we are given parallels. It is 2 witnesses of the same events to establish that they are true, and not just "that's parenthetical" "that's allegory" when Revelation gives a symbol, it explains the symbol in the text, or is a reference back to an old testament symbol that itself was explained in the text.

What Revelation 3:10 is promising is not deliverance prior to persecution of the 5th seal and the mark of the beast, but deliverance prior to the wrath of God.

It is ALL OVER
(Isaiah 26)

17 Like as a woman with child, that draweth near the time of her delivery, is in pain, and crieth out in her pangs; so have we been in thy sight, O Lord.
18 We have been with child, we have been in pain, we have as it were brought forth wind; we have not wrought any deliverance in the earth; neither have the inhabitants of the world fallen.
19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.
20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.
21 For, behold, the Lord cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

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and OVER
(Daniel 12)

1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

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in scripture.
Birth pangs, tribulation, coming of Messiah, resurrection, rapture, wrath of God, God's Kingdom.

That's the order I see.

There are 3 doctrines based on faulty (or lack of) bible understanding that are required for pretribulationism or the entire idea falls apart.
#1. the Rapture and the Second coming are not the same thing.
1 Thessalonians 4:16, 2 Thessalonians 2:1, 1 Corinthians 15:23, and Titus 2:13 all show that it is connected. I see Titus 2:13 as a "proof text" for pretribulationism when it itself actually shows that it is the second coming that is our blessed hope, not a pretribulation rapture.
#2. The Rapture has no signs before it.
Matthew 24 shows signs preceding it, and it is not "to the unbelieving Jews" it was and always has been, to believers. There were no Pharisees listening to the Olivet Discourse. It was a private teaching among 4 disciples.
#3. That the entire 70th week is a "seven year tribulation" that is ALL God's wrath so when Paul says we're not appointed to wrath, it means the entire 7 year period. They will always, ALWAYS regurgitate "the seven year tribulation" because if they actually separate it into birth pains, great tribulation, and then the wrath of God... they will find their position crumbles. Nowhere in the bible is it ever called "the seven year tribulation". That is a fabrication.

Sorn said:

Maybe, but in any case your scenario is decades into the future.

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Not really for the UK and USA plus others are already preparing. China and some other countries have a CBDC already.

Things are moving faster than we realize behind our everyday life.

Marilyn C said:

Not really for the UK and USA plus others are already preparing. China and some other countries have a CBDC already.

Things are moving faster than we realize behind our everyday life.

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There is probably still a little time yet, but later 2022 and 2023 could see widespread famine and global economic collapse, I mean we are right now standing on a bubble, and with Ukraine not planting harvest and all that grain shoots up in price as supplies dwindle, and the current Chinese lockdowns. A few months from now we'll start feeling the bite of all those ships stuck off the coast of China not moving goods. It'll start with consumer products, electronics, stuff like that, and as it is, this bird flu is really hitting poultry. but when the effects of the fertilizer shortages and major breadbasket countries either being at war or sanctioned from exporting get felt..
It's gonna be a game changer for the whole world.
Does a world war 3 follow that and go nuclear? Maybe.

Basically this year and next could go hot and really bad.

Jamdoc said:

I think Julie will agree with me if maybe on nothing else, but this.. the rapture is the second coming, the first thing that happens is Jesus descends from heaven, then the dead are resurrected, finally the rapture occurs, and carrying into 1 Thessalonians 5, it's the wrath of God.
There is no rapture prior to the second coming, and the second coming that Paul talks about is very noisy and very visible.

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Yes, we do agree on that. And hey, we do agree that the the seals line up with Matthew 24, that's 2 things ;0

Sorn said:

The "megalomaniac pretend god" i was referring to is the antichrist

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You mean the image that becomes the beast then?

Marilyn C said:

Not really for the UK and USA plus others are already preparing. China and some other countries have a CBDC already.

Things are moving faster than we realize behind our everyday life.

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They may be working on them but it will take a couple of decade before they are fully rolled out and then they need to be used widely and accepted widely. Only then can they then be co-opted for some nefarious purpose.