Futurist Only What is the chronological order of Revelation?

Jeffwhosoever · Apr 20, 2022

OK after a deep dive I'm convinced all 21 are individual steps. There is some common topics in the first 5 trumpets and bowls, but still enough differences to make each unique, and there is zero overlap with the 7 seals, none of which have begun as best I can tell.

Jeffwhosoever · Apr 20, 2022

Douggg said:
A generation is 70 years based on Psalms 90:10.

The events of the final 7 years of Daniel 9:27 come upon the world like a flood. Matthew 24:37-39.

The two critical things have to happen in the near future.

1. The formation of the ten kings (leaders) block of the EU, and the one leader over them - the little horn person. (Zelensky could be that guy)

2. Followed by the Russian/Arab alliance of Gog/Magog to attack Israel.

3. Followed by the 7 years.

70 years isn't far off.
Israel Life Expectancy 1950-2022.

Sorn · Apr 20, 2022

Timtofly said:
Yet people born before 48 are still around, and talking about the Second Coming. When no one is no longer around from that generation, then we may have some issues.

I'd say its an issue already if 1948 is your date as really you'd think that a good proportion of the 'generation' live through the events, not just the last 1 or 2%. Even if 'generation' means 'people born that year', its still starting to push it a bit.

Sorn · Apr 20, 2022

Timtofly said:
Russia trying to take Ukraine is already on the 2nd go around. Russia does not seem to be in a big hurry.

Russia didn't try to take Ukraine in 2014, it stopped at Crimea. In any case what Russia doesn't have is time. The longer the war goes for the more time the west has to send ever more sophisticated and bigger weapons to Ukraine and also have the time to train Ukrainian's on their use.

At the start the West was reticent to give aid as they didn't want to fight Russia, now its obvious that Russia couldn't handle them so its only the nuke threat holding the west back but they will & are sending ever more weapons into Ukraine, time is a luxury Russia does not have.

Jamdoc · Apr 20, 2022

Here's a little speculation.. and yes, it's totally just speculation...

as I've pointed out before I think the first 4 seals precede any 70th week.
they are a setup, of man caused disasters on the world, that I believe are designed to bring down the current world powers, opening a power vacuum

If they were to be fulfilled ultimately in a nuclear exchange between NATO and Russia, but limited to just NATO and Russia, IE the rest of the world does not get involved, so you have about 2 billion people dying around the world mostly concentrated in North America, Europe, and Russia, and many predominantly Christian areas of Africa and South America suffer from famine, a lot of the world's "Christian Nations" as the world considers them, will be largely taken out of power, and killed a large number of people as a result of their war.

The people left on Earth, in East Asia, in the Middle East and India, will be overwhelmingly non Christian, largely Islamic, Buddhist, and Hindu.
In their eyes, it will be "Christians" in Russia, and "Christians" in the US and Europe that had the nuke fight that killed so many and put the world in such a disastrous situation that they have to rebuild from.

It becomes plausible then that Christians are then targeted for the 5th seal.

I think along this lines because while it's part of popular in hollywood and Christian movies to depict a future of a secular European Antichrist rounding up Christians to execute, I don't find it very plausible for them to have a REASON where Christians are targeted.

But to the rest of the world, the countries in Europe, the US and Canada, and Russia are considered "Christian" Nations. If they go to a war and it results in a nuclear holocaust felt by the entire world? That'd make "Christians" demonized in most the world's eyes.

Sorn · Apr 20, 2022

Jamdoc said:
Here's a little speculation.. and yes, it's totally just speculation...

as I've pointed out before I think the first 4 seals precede any 70th week.
they are a setup, of man caused disasters on the world, that I believe are designed to bring down the current world powers, opening a power vacuum

If they were to be fulfilled ultimately in a nuclear exchange between NATO and Russia, but limited to just NATO and Russia, IE the rest of the world does not get involved, so you have about 2 billion people dying around the world mostly concentrated in North America, Europe, and Russia, and many predominantly Christian areas of Africa and South America suffer from famine, a lot of the world's "Christian Nations" as the world considers them, will be largely taken out of power, and killed a large number of people as a result of their war.

The people left on Earth, in East Asia, in the Middle East and India, will be overwhelmingly non Christian, largely Islamic, Buddhist, and Hindu.
In their eyes, it will be "Christians" in Russia, and "Christians" in the US and Europe that had the nuke fight that killed so many and put the world in such a disastrous situation that they have to rebuild from.

It becomes plausible then that Christians are then targeted for the 5th seal.

I think along this lines because while it's part of popular in hollywood and Christian movies to depict a future of a secular European Antichrist rounding up Christians to execute, I don't find it very plausible for them to have a REASON where Christians are targeted.

But to the rest of the world, the countries in Europe, the US and Canada, and Russia are considered "Christian" Nations. If they go to a war and it results in a nuclear holocaust felt by the entire world? That'd make "Christians" demonized in most the world's eyes.

But if most Christians have taken themselves out of the fight by going nuclear, there won't be much of a reason for the remaining ones to be killed as they will largely be in contaminated countries or else as small minorities in non-Christian nations without any real power for centuries, plus Christianity would be thoroughly discredited so its not like it was going to grow (miracles not withstanding).

Besides, its not as if non-Christian nation don't want nukes, many would love to have them

Jamdoc · Apr 20, 2022

Sorn said:
But if most Christians have taken themselves out of the fight by going nuclear, there won't be much of a reason for the remaining ones to be killed as they will largely be in contaminated countries or else as small minorities in non-Christian nations without any real power for centuries, plus Christianity would be thoroughly discredited so its not like it was going to grow (miracles not withstanding).

Besides, its not as if non-Christian nation don't want nukes, many would love to have them

It's about 4 (again, from the perspective of the rest of the world, not from our own internal perspective where we see them as liberal secular nations that are apostate from the church largely) "Christian" countries that are most posed to go to nuclear war with each other. It would be seen as the "Christian's" fault.

and while yes, they'll have taken themselves out of power, they won't be totally wiped out, and millions will still exist in South America, Africa (though they'll have suffered from famine, enough to become persecutable minorities), and there will be survivors in Europe and the US and Russia, scattered about, weak, easy to persecute... Similarly, Jews, the "fathers of the Bomb" like Oppenheimer, would also be blamed and persecuted. Australia and New Zealand would also contain millions of "Christians" that were largely untouched.

"Christians" are currently the largest professed religion in the world.
Something like this happening would reduce them to a minority that could be persecuted to the extremes surpassing the Holocaust that would characterize the 5th seal and Great Tribulation.

Sorn · Apr 20, 2022

Jamdoc said:
It's about 4 (again, from the perspective of the rest of the world, not from our own internal perspective where we see them as liberal secular nations that are apostate from the church largely) "Christian" countries that are most posed to go to nuclear war with each other. It would be seen as the "Christian's" fault.

and while yes, they'll have taken themselves out of power, they won't be totally wiped out, and millions will still exist in South America, Africa (though they'll have suffered from famine, enough to become persecutable minorities), and there will be survivors in Europe and the US and Russia, scattered about, weak, easy to persecute... Similarly, Jews, the "fathers of the Bomb" like Oppenheimer, would also be blamed and persecuted. Australia and New Zealand would also contain millions of "Christians" that were largely untouched.

"Christians" are currently the largest professed religion in the world.
Something like this happening would reduce them to a minority that could be persecuted to the extremes surpassing the Holocaust that would characterize the 5th seal and Great Tribulation.

Survivors in the nuked countries would be left alone because they'd be living in contaminated lands but sure, i guess Christians elsewhere could be attacked.

I think when the antichrist is on the scene, it will be all religions/cults that get attacked (ie convert or die), its just that Christians are the ones that belong to the one true God.

JulieB67 · Apr 20, 2022

Jeffwhosoever said:
OK after a deep dive I'm convinced all 21 are individual steps

So you believe in multiple days of wrath?

This seems pretty clear to me there is only one.

Revelation 6:17 "For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"

Jamdoc · Apr 20, 2022

JulieB67 said:
So you believe in multiple days of wrath?

This seems pretty clear to me there is only one.

Revelation 6:17 "For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"

"day" doesn't always mean a single 24 hour period. Sometimes it means just an unspecified length of time that something is happening.

"the day" "the hour" "the year" and even "the age" can all be used that way, especially when preceded by "the"
otherwise if you want to go that route, none of us are saved because according to Isaiah 61, which Jesus quotes in Luke 4, that was "the acceptable year". None of us were alive during this one acceptable year.
or hey, maybe Isaiah had it be only 1 day too, Isaiah 49 has a "day of salvation" which Paul quotes in 2 Corinthians 6. Sorry, but we all missed it, what are we all doing with our lives? We missed "the day of salvation" which happened almost 2000 years ago.
We're doomed!

No. It is still the day of salvation, it is still the acceptable year of the Lord.
Isaiah uses "the day" and "the year" interchangeably several times almost as if to throw off the notion that it is not specific to a single 24 hour period.

Isaiah 34:8

8 For it is the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.

and Isaiah 63, and I just love this one, such powerful imagery, and John definitely references it in Revelation 14 and 19, with it referring to Jesus' appearance in Revelation 19.. and having Jesus describe what He has been doing since Revelation 14 where this started.

Isaiah 63

1 Who is this that cometh from Edom, with dyed garments from Bozrah? this that is glorious in his apparel, travelling in the greatness of his strength? I that speak in righteousness, mighty to save.
2 Wherefore art thou red in thine apparel, and thy garments like him that treadeth in the winefat?
3 I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment.
4 For the day of vengeance is in mine heart, and the year of my redeemed is come.
5 And I looked, and there was none to help; and I wondered that there was none to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought salvation unto me; and my fury, it upheld me.
6 And I will tread down the people in mine anger, and make them drunk in my fury, and I will bring down their strength to the earth.
7 I will mention the lovingkindnesses of the Lord, and the praises of the Lord, according to all that the Lord hath bestowed on us, and the great goodness toward the house of Israel, which he hath bestowed on them according to his mercies, and according to the multitude of his lovingkindnesses.
8 For he said, Surely they are my people, children that will not lie: so he was their Saviour.

JulieB67 · Apr 20, 2022

Jamdoc said:
"day" doesn't always mean a single 24 hour period. Sometimes it means just an unspecified length of time that something is happening.

I realize that. I believe the Lord's Day ushered in will be 1000 years but I believe when the Lord returns that ushers that in. But I don't believe in multiple Lord's Days. I believe there is just one. And upon Christ's return come's God's wrath in that same time period. I don't believe God's wrath comes multiple times. It all comes at the time of Christ returning.

I Thessalonians 5:2 "For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night."

I Thessalonians 5:3 "For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape,.'

Revelation 6:16 "And said to the mountains and the rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:"

Revelation 6:16 "And said to the mountains and the rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:"

Same event just as this is,

Revelation 6:14 "And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places."

Revelation 16:20 "And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found."

For this to happen multiple times, every mountain and island would have to be moved back in their places. That doesn't even make sense.

Jamdoc said:
otherwise if you want to go that route, none of us are saved because according to Isaiah 61, which Jesus quotes in Luke 4, that was "the acceptable year". None of us were alive during this one acceptable year.

I believe Christ was talking about his first advent with the acceptable year of our Lord. He closed the book but we see in Isaiah it says acceptable year of our Lord and day of vengeance. Those cover both advents. His first and second coming. But you will not have multiples of boths.

Jamdoc · Apr 20, 2022

JulieB67 said:
I realize that. I believe the Lord's Day ushered in will be 1000 years but I believe when the Lord returns that ushers that in. But I don't believe in multiple Lord's Days. I believe there is just one. And upon Christ's return come's God's wrath in that same time period. I don't believe God's wrath comes multiple times. It all comes at the time of Christ returning.

I Thessalonians 5:2 "For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night."

I Thessalonians 5:3 "For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape,.'

Revelation 6:16 "And said to the mountains and the rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:"

Revelation 6:16 "And said to the mountains and the rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:"

Same event just as this is,

Revelation 6:14 "And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places."

Revelation 16:20 "And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found."

For this to happen multiple times, every mountain and island would have to be moved back in their places. That doesn't even make sense.

I believe Christ was talking about his first advent with the acceptable year of our Lord. He closed the book but we see in Isaiah it says acceptable year of our Lord and day of vengeance. Those cover both advents. His first and second coming. But you will not have multiples of boths.

It's not that there are multiple "day of the Lord" days like dramatic sudden occurrences on multiple days.
but rather the first day He returns is the Day of the Lord, but time continues to happen after that and all events that happen after that appearing in the clouds are connected to that first day.
Revelation does have that grand entrance after the 6th seal, but then proceeds to have time move on, with the 5th trumpet taking 5 months, so we can see a passing of time does occur and it is not just 1 24 hour day where all events happen at once.
a Youtuber I follow Nelson Walters tends to believe it's going to be a literal year, I'm not that hard lined about the time. There's the Day of the Lord, which specifically refers to when He appears in the clouds at the 6th seal or Revelation 14:14, but all the time between that and Armageddon, is STILL "the Day of the Lord" even though months or years will have passed Chronologically.

To put it simply, it's like how Pearl Harbor is a day that lives in Infamy, even though our war with Japan continued for a little more than 3 and a half years. We still connect our involvement in the longer conflict with that Day that lives in infamy December 7th 1941.. but events kept happening after it. The whole war did not happen in one day. Similarly, the Day of the Lord, the Day He returns and begins His war on the wicked, marks the beginning, but it is not the entirety contained in 24 hours.
You have to allegorize far too much to try to make it a single 24 hour day.

DavidPT · Apr 20, 2022

JulieB67 said:
I don't believe God's wrath comes multiple times. It all comes at the time of Christ returning.

Why do you then think the millennium is after the 2nd coming? Isn't the following also God's wrath---and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them(Revelation 20:9)? Sounds somewhat similar to what happened to Sodom and Gomorrah that time when the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven. I'm pretty certain God was full of wrath at the time.

Jeffwhosoever · Apr 20, 2022

God's wrath and the Day of God's wrath do not necessarily relate to the exact same thing. God's wrath can be seen throughout all the Seal, Trumpet, and Bowls of Wrath judgments, yet there is a reference to a day of God's wrath all throughout the Scripture.

Jeffwhosoever · Apr 20, 2022

Jamdoc said:
Here's a little speculation.. and yes, it's totally just speculation...

as I've pointed out before I think the first 4 seals precede any 70th week.
they are a setup, of man caused disasters on the world, that I believe are designed to bring down the current world powers, opening a power vacuum

If they were to be fulfilled ultimately in a nuclear exchange between NATO and Russia, but limited to just NATO and Russia, IE the rest of the world does not get involved, so you have about 2 billion people dying around the world mostly concentrated in North America, Europe, and Russia, and many predominantly Christian areas of Africa and South America suffer from famine, a lot of the world's "Christian Nations" as the world considers them, will be largely taken out of power, and killed a large number of people as a result of their war.

The people left on Earth, in East Asia, in the Middle East and India, will be overwhelmingly non Christian, largely Islamic, Buddhist, and Hindu.
In their eyes, it will be "Christians" in Russia, and "Christians" in the US and Europe that had the nuke fight that killed so many and put the world in such a disastrous situation that they have to rebuild from.

It becomes plausible then that Christians are then targeted for the 5th seal.

I think along this lines because while it's part of popular in hollywood and Christian movies to depict a future of a secular European Antichrist rounding up Christians to execute, I don't find it very plausible for them to have a REASON where Christians are targeted.

But to the rest of the world, the countries in Europe, the US and Canada, and Russia are considered "Christian" Nations. If they go to a war and it results in a nuclear holocaust felt by the entire world? That'd make "Christians" demonized in most the world's eyes.

As far as Russia-US or Russia-NATO nuclear exchange, did you know the name of the ICBM Russia fired today is called the SATAN-2?

DavidPT · Apr 20, 2022

Jeffwhosoever said:
God's wrath can be seen throughout all the Seal--- judgments

Where do you see God's wrath throughout all the seals? The 6th seal obviously involves God's wrath, but that is only one seal, not all seals.

Take the 5th seal, for instance.

Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth---that speaks of God's wrath, yet in verse 11 we learn it is not yet the time for His wrath because what is recorded in verse 11 has to be fulfilled first. Obviously, or at least to me, as of the 6th seal what is recorded in Revelation 6:11, this has been fulfilled at this point, which means it is now time for this part---judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth. Probably why verse 16 and 17 in that same chapter says what it says. I don't see the text saying anything like that during any of the 5 previous seals, though.

Douggg · Apr 20, 2022

Sorn said:
Don't forget that Israel has to rebuild the temple, that won't happen during war time.

I agree. The temple that the Antichrist will desecrate will have a temporary sanctuary building of the dimensions of the tent of the meeting in the wilderness that traveled with the children of Israel in the Exodus. The size was 15 ft by 30 ft.

Jamdoc · Apr 20, 2022

Jeffwhosoever said:
As far as Russia-US or Russia-NATO nuclear exchange, did you know the name of the ICBM Russia fired today is called the SATAN-2?

Yup, it's not the name they themselves call it of course but it's the NATO reporting name. Russians call it the Sarmat.

But I know some people claim Russia as Magog or "Rosh" (horrible hermeneutics), but I don't see either US or Russia in bible prophecy and I see a middle east focused end times.
I think we destroy each other. I'm 99% convinced we do, we destroy each other and the power vacuum results in a more middle eastern focused world order.
Why did God let us develop nuclear weapons? To fulfill His plans.
Why has He stopped us from using them over decades?
For His timing.

Jamdoc · Apr 20, 2022

DavidPT said:
Where do you see God's wrath throughout all the seals? The 6th seal obviously involves God's wrath, but that is only one seal, not all seals.

Take the 5th seal, for instance.

Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth---that speaks of God's wrath, yet in verse 11 we learn it is not yet the time for His wrath because what is recorded in verse 11 has to be fulfilled first. Obviously, or at least to me, as of the 6th seal what is recorded in Revelation 6:11, this has been fulfilled at this point, which means it is now time for this part---judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth. Probably why verse 16 and 17 in that same chapter says what it says. I don't see the text saying anything like that during any of the 5 previous seals, though.

I agree, the seals are not God's judgement, the seals are God taking away His restraints from men. The first 5 from wicked worldly men, the last 2 from His Son.
Jesus has spent the last 1900 years desiring two things and being withheld from doing them. gathering those who are His to Him.. and executing wrath on the world.

Luke 12

49 I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled?

JulieB67 · Apr 20, 2022

I don't know. I just don't see the seals as actions/events that happen before the rest of the book. They are signets/stamps. I still see them as a basic summary of events that will happen. They start off with "come and see"...And certain events described in the seals most definitely happen when the 7th trump has started to sound.

Jamdoc said:
Revelation does have that grand entrance after the 6th seal

Christ returns at the 7th trump (farthest out, time no longer etc) so that would already make the 6th seal finishing up with everything. The seals cover the entire tribulation. That's what I mean about the seals are knowledge a person is to be "sealed with", stamped with.

Jamdoc said:
There's the Day of the Lord, which specifically refers to when He appears in the clouds at the 6th seal or Revelation 14:14, but all the time between that and Armageddon, is STILL "the Day of the Lord" even though months or years will have passed Chronologically.

I believe trumps will take a certain amount of time but once the 7th has sounded, that brings about the Lord's Day/God's wrath. And if God's wrath is being discussed in the 6th seal the 7th trump has started to sound. You can't have Christ return/God's wrath and then start the trumps. Christ returns at the last trump which is the 7th and the trump of God. No other number fits this. It's spiritual completeness.

DavidPT said:
Why do you then think the millennium is after the 2nd coming? Isn't the following also God's wrath---and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them(Revelation 20:9)? Sounds somewhat similar to what happened to Sodom and Gomorrah that time when the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven. I'm pretty certain God was full of wrath at the time.

Yes, but there's a difference between God showing anger/wrath and the particular "day of vengeance/wrath" that's been talked about all through scripture.

That happens at Christ return and I just don't see how every island and mountain will move out of it's place and some will believe this happens before the tribulation of Antichrist. God's wrath happens after the tribulation. The 6th seal shows people wanting to have mountains to fall on them. They are that scared because they've been thinking peace and safety worshipping the fake Christ and then bam the true Christ returns.
The very first seal is the rider on the white horse which is Antichrist. By the time of the 6th seal we have Christ returning and God's wrath. It's a basic summary of what's going to happen but the proceeding chapters lay it all out.

But I guess we're all going to have different beliefs on how this unfolds.

Futurist Only What is the chronological order of Revelation?

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