LDS What is the basis of changes to the BoM?

tampasteve

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If you seen me you see the father, does not speak of the Father having flesh and ????

Ether 3:8 And he saith unto the Lord: I saw the finger of the Lord, and I feared lest he should smite me; for I knew not that the Lord had flesh and blood.

verse 14 says it is Jesus

1 Corinthians 15:50 What I mean, friends, is that what is made of flesh and blood cannot share in God's Kingdom, and what is mortal cannot possess immortality.

Based on your own scriptures the LDS god can not go to heaven.

This topic posted here LDS - Based on your own scriptures the LDS god can not go to heaven.
How do we reconcile 1st Corinthians with mainstream beleifs? Most mainstream Christianity believes Elijah, Enoch, and of course Jesus were all bodily assumed (or ascended) into Heaven, and the RCC adds Mary to that list. Perhaps 1 Corinthians is speaking more of the "things of this world" ie, sin or another "worldly" issue having no place in Heaven?
 
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Daniel Marsh

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How do we reconcile 1st Corinthians with mainstream beleifs? Most mainstream Christianity believes Elijah, Enoch, and of course Jesus were all bodily assumed (or ascended) into Heaven, and the RCC adds Mary to that list. Perhaps 1 Corinthians is speaking more of the "things of this world" ie, sin or another "worldly" issue having no place in Heaven?

I am not LDS, so it is not my problem. Jesus was resurrected before going back to Heaven.
So, that is not my problem either.
 
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tampasteve

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I am not LDS, so it is not my problem. Jesus was resurrected before going back to Heaven.
So, that is not my problem either.
Perhaps I misunderstood the question posed? I read it as:
1: 1 Corinthians 15:50 states "what is made of flesh and blood cannot share in God's Kingdom"
2: Ether 3:8 States: the Lord had flesh and blood.
3: Therefor there is a contradiction with Ether and 1 Corinthians and God cannot share in His own kingdom.
 
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Daniel Marsh

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...Gah...

You're relying on the Smithsonian statement?

Really?

Did you not research that out?

Response to the Smithsonian Institute Statement on the Book of Mormon

The Smithsonian was forced to retract that same statement and cease distributing it because it was wrong and did not represent the most up-to-date research on the region.

The retraction happened back in 1998, so it's not anything new.

In fact, by 2001, a far more neutral, far less embarrassing for the Smithsonian statement was being circulated instead.

"FairMormon likewise confirms (or otherwise ignores) key anachronisms in the Book of Mormon, such as the existence of steel, wheat, horses, and many more items. Given the current state of archaeological understanding, experts would absolutely expect to find these items, had they actually existed. Indeed, no respectable non-Mormon institution (including the National Geographic and Smithsonian institutions) or scholar that has considered the historicity of the Book of Mormon deems it a historical record. Although FairMormon contends that certain items previously thought to have been anachronisms have since been found, FairMormon has not provided credible evidence and sources to support its extraordinary and amazing claims."Debunking FairMormon - Letter to a CES Director - Book of Mormon

I just emailed this question to the Smithsonian Institution,

What is the current statement by the Smithsonian Institution concerning the Book of Mormon?
 
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Daniel Marsh

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JS may not have even had farm animals...

But yeah - there are people who are just that strong.

I mean, when I was about that age, I succeeded in pulling a Humvee out of a ditch using nothing more than a good length of rope.

I do not believe you pulled a 5,000 pound vehicle out of a ditch because that is not an emergency situation. Last Winter myself and others lifted a small car off of someone and I hurt my back.
 
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Daniel Marsh

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Ironhold a game we used to play when I was a kid was to fill a field with tacklers and one guy without blockers run through them. I was 12 or 13 at that time. Pick a 14 year old, give him a bag of portland cement and have him play that game.
 
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Daniel Marsh

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Perhaps I misunderstood the question posed? I read it as:
1: 1 Corinthians 15:50 states "what is made of flesh and blood cannot share in God's Kingdom"
2: Ether 3:8 States: the Lord had flesh and blood.
3: Therefor there is a contradiction with Ether and 1 Corinthians and God cannot share in His own kingdom.

Correct on the logic, argument. Ether 3 is in the book of mormon, not the Bible. So, it is an LDS problem. Not ours.
 
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tampasteve

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Correct on the logic, argument. Ether 3 is in the book of mormon, not the Bible. So, it is an LDS problem. Not ours.
Ok, but what I was pointing out is that mainstream Christianity also believes that Enoch, Elija, and Jesus as well as Mary in the RCC were bodily assumed/ascended to Heaven. So, either the verse in 1 Corinthians means something else than you are positing, or we also have a difficulty.
 
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Daniel Marsh

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Did the disciples not believe Jesus a ghost after he rose from the tomb?

Did they not feel the wounds in his body?

Did Jesus not eat in front of them?

LDS theology has no problem with this, as it holds that once a person is resurrected they will receive a perfected body that has none of the flaws a mortal body has.

Only problem with your statement is Ether 3 was written around the time of the Tower of Bethel, not post Resurrected Jesus. And, Ether 3:14 clearly says that Jesus is the Father, whom in true Christian Theology does not have a physical body. Also, did not JS see two persons in his First Vision or at least in one of the editions of it?

Also, Ether 3:8 has flesh and blood, in the resurrection it is flesh and bone. According to I Cor 15 flesh and blood can not go to heaven. So, since Ether is part of the BOM, your scriptures, LDS have that problem.

Peter had something similar happen.

Luke 24:34-43 Good News Translation (GNT)
34 and saying, “The Lord is risen indeed! He has appeared to Simon!”

35 The two then explained to them what had happened on the road, and how they had recognized the Lord when he broke the bread.

Jesus Appears to His Disciples
36 While the two were telling them this, suddenly the Lord himself stood among them and said to them, “Peace be with you.”[a]

37 They were terrified, thinking that they were seeing a ghost. 38 But he said to them, “Why are you alarmed? Why are these doubts coming up in your minds? 39 Look at my hands and my feet, and see that it is I myself. Feel me, and you will know, for a ghost doesn't have flesh and bones, as you can see I have.”

40 He said this and showed them his hands and his feet. 41 They still could not believe, they were so full of joy and wonder; so he asked them, “Do you have anything here to eat?” 42 They gave him a piece of cooked fish, 43 which he took and ate in their presence.

Acts 12:3-19 21st Century King James Version (KJ21)
3 And because he saw that it pleased the Jews, he proceeded further to take Peter also. (This was during the Days of Unleavened Bread.)

4 And when he had apprehended him, he put him in prison and delivered him to four quaternions of soldiers to guard him, intending after Easter to bring him forth to the people.

5 Peter therefore was kept in prison, but prayer was made without ceasing by the church unto God for him.

6 And when Herod would have brought him forth, that same night Peter was sleeping between two soldiers, bound with two chains; and the keepers were guarding the door of the prison.

7 And behold, the angel of the Lord came upon him, and a light shined in the prison; and he smote Peter on the side and raised him up, saying, “Arise up quickly.” And his chains fell off from his hands.

8 And the angel said unto him, “Gird thyself and bind on thy sandals.” And so he did. And the angel said unto him, “Cast thy garment about thee and follow me.”

9 And he went out and followed him, and knew not whether what was being done by the angel was real, but thought he saw a vision.

10 When they had passed the first and the second guard, they came unto the iron gate that leadeth unto the city, which opened to them of his own accord. And they went out and passed on through one street, and forthwith the angel departed from him.

11 And when Peter had come to himself, he said, “Now I know in truth that the Lord hath sent His angel, and hath delivered me out of the hand of Herod and from all the expectations of the people of the Jews.”

12 And when he had considered this thing, he went to the house of Mary the mother of John, whose surname was Mark, where many were gathered together praying.

13 And as Peter knocked at the door of the gate, a damsel named Rhoda came to ask who was there.

14 And when she recognized Peter’s voice, she opened not the gate for gladness, but ran in and told how Peter stood before the gate.

15 And they said unto her, “Thou art mad.” But she continued to affirm that it was even so. Then they said, “It is his angel.”

16 But Peter continued knocking, and when they opened the door and saw him, they were astonished.

17 But he, beckoning unto them with his hand to hold their peace, declared unto them how the Lord had brought him out of the prison. And he said, “Go and tell these things unto James and to the brethren.” And he departed and went into another place.

18 Now as soon as it was day, there was no small stir among the soldiers over what had become of Peter.

19 And when Herod had sought him and found him not, he examined the guards and commanded that they should be put to death. And he went down from Judea to Caesarea and there stayed.
 
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You assume that they would have been wide open 24/7, and that they wouldn't have stoppers or something else to seal them up when they needed to be closed.

Pop them open to get air, close them to keep the water out.

That simple.

Not that simple, And, why would one install a hole in the bottom again?

Ether 6
5 And it came to pass that the Lord God caused that there should be a furious wind blow upon the face of the waters, towards the promised land; and thus they were tossed upon the waves of the sea before the wind.

6 And it came to pass that they were many times buried in the depths of the sea, because of the mountain waves which broke upon them, and also the great and terrible tempests which were caused by the fierceness of the wind.

7 And it came to pass that when they were buried in the deep there was no water that could hurt them, their vessels being tight like unto a dish, and also they were tight like unto the ark of Noah; therefore when they were encompassed about by many waters they did cry unto the Lord, and he did bring them forth again upon the top of the waters.

8 And it came to pass that the wind did never cease to blow towards the promised land while they were upon the waters; and thus they were driven forth before the wind.

9 And they did sing praises unto the Lord; yea, the brother of Jared did sing praises unto the Lord, and he did thank and praise the Lord all the day long; and when the night came, they did not cease to praise the Lord.

10 And thus they were driven forth; and no monster of the sea could break them, neither whale that could mar them; and they did have light continually, whether it was above the water or under the water.

11 And thus they were driven forth, three hundred and forty and four days upon the water.

What is the distance they traveled? Speed?

It is about 6,762 miles from Israel to America from a goolge search for air plane.
It took 344 days of wind.
which is about 8256 hours.

Speed = Distance / Time

I am guessing that is about 19.66 miles per day or about 0.82 miles per hour?

My Math is only an estimate off the top of my head. What is your math?

I am tired so, my math could be off since I am just doing this in my head.

What is your math? for distance and speed?
 
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Jane_Doe

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Only problem with your statement is Ether 3 was written around the time of the Tower of Bethel, not post Resurrected Jesus. And, Ether 3:14 clearly says that Jesus is the Father, whom in true Christian Theology does not have a physical body. Also, did not JS see two persons in his First Vision or at least in one of the editions of it?
Let me help clarify things:
In Ether 3, verses 13-16 the speaker is Jesus Christ. It says how He is the creator, redeemer of the world, through whom all shall be saved. In regards to the body being talked about, it specifically states that it's a body of spirit not flesh (verse 16). This is pre Him being born of Mary.

Does that make sense and alleviate some of your confusion in regards to this verse?
(I can happily address other verses later, but wanted to make this part clear first)
 
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Daniel Marsh

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Ok, but what I was pointing out is that mainstream Christianity also believes that Enoch, Elija, and Jesus as well as Mary in the RCC were bodily assumed/ascended to Heaven. So, either the verse in 1 Corinthians means something else than you are positing, or we also have a difficulty.

Matthew 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

1 Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

Galatians 1:16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:

Ephesians 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

Hebrews 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

1 Corinthians 15:40-57 J.B. Phillips New Testament (PHILLIPS)
40-41 There are bodies which exist in this world, and bodies which exist in heaven. These bodies are not, as it were, in competition; the splendour of an earthly body is quite a different thing from the splendour of a heavenly body. The sun, the moon and the stars all have their own particular splendour, while among the stars themselves there are different kinds of splendour.

42-44 These are illustrations here of the raising of the dead. The body is “sown” in corruption; it is raised beyond the reach of corruption. It is “sown” in dishonour; it is raised in splendour. It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power. It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. As there is a natural body so will there be a spiritual body.

45 It is written, moreover, that: ‘The first man Adam became a living being’.

46-49 So the last Adam is a life-giving Spirit. But we should notice that the order is “natural” first and then “spiritual”. The first man came out of the earth, a material creature. The second man came from Heaven and was the Lord himself. For the life of this world men are made like the material man; but for the life that is to come they are made like the one from Heaven. So that just as we have been made like the material pattern, so we shall be made like the Heavenly pattern.

50 For I assure you, my brothers, it is utterly impossible for flesh and blood to possess the kingdom of God. The transitory could never possess the everlasting.

The dead and the living will be fitted for immortality
51-53 Listen, and I will tell you a secret. We shall not all die, but suddenly, in the twinkling of an eye, every one of us will be changed as the trumpet sounds! The trumpet will sound and the dead shall be raised beyond the reach of corruption, and we who are still alive shall suddenly be utterly changed. For this perishable nature of ours must be wrapped in imperishability, these bodies which are mortal must be wrapped in immortality.

54 So when the perishable is lost in the imperishable, the mortal lost in the immortal, this saying will come true: ‘Death is swallowed up in victory’ ‘O death, where is your sting? O Hades, where is your victory?’

55-57 It is sin which gives death its power, and it is the Law which gives sin its strength. All thanks to God, then, who gives us the victory over these things through our Lord Jesus Christ!

1 Corinthians 15:40-55 Good News Translation (GNT)
40 And there are heavenly bodies and earthly bodies; the beauty that belongs to heavenly bodies is different from the beauty that belongs to earthly bodies. 41 The sun has its own beauty, the moon another beauty, and the stars a different beauty; and even among stars there are different kinds of beauty.

42 This is how it will be when the dead are raised to life. When the body is buried, it is mortal; when raised, it will be immortal. 43 When buried, it is ugly and weak; when raised, it will be beautiful and strong. 44 When buried, it is a physical body; when raised, it will be a spiritual body. There is, of course, a physical body, so there has to be a spiritual body. 45 For the scripture says, “The first man, Adam, was created a living being”; but the last Adam is the life-giving Spirit. 46 It is not the spiritual that comes first, but the physical, and then the spiritual. 47 The first Adam, made of earth, came from the earth; the second Adam came from heaven. 48 Those who belong to the earth are like the one who was made of earth; those who are of heaven are like the one who came from heaven. 49 Just as we wear the likeness of the man made of earth, so we will wear[a] the likeness of the Man from heaven.

50 What I mean, friends, is that what is made of flesh and blood cannot share in God's Kingdom, and what is mortal cannot possess immortality.

51-52 Listen to this secret truth: we shall not all die, but when the last trumpet sounds, we shall all be changed in an instant, as quickly as the blinking of an eye. For when the trumpet sounds, the dead will be raised, never to die again, and we shall all be changed. 53 For what is mortal must be changed into what is immortal; what will die must be changed into what cannot die. 54 So when this takes place, and the mortal has been changed into the immortal, then the scripture will come true: “Death is destroyed; victory is complete!”

55 “Where, Death, is your victory?
Where, Death, is your power to hurt?”

Look at each use in scripture and I cor 15 in context. Are you aware of the parallelism in verse 50?
 
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Daniel Marsh

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Let me help clarify things:
In Ether 3, verses 13-16 the speaker is Jesus Christ. It says how He is the creator, redeemer of the world, through whom all shall be saved. In regards to the body being talked about, it specifically states that it's a body of spirit not flesh (verse 16). This is pre Him being born of Mary.

Does that make sense and alleviate some of your confusion in regards to this verse?
(I can happily address other verses later, but wanted to make this part clear first)

Well, what is the meaning of "flesh and blood"???
 
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Daniel Marsh

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Let me help clarify things:
In Ether 3, verses 13-16 the speaker is Jesus Christ. It says how He is the creator, redeemer of the world, through whom all shall be saved. In regards to the body being talked about, it specifically states that it's a body of spirit not flesh (verse 16). This is pre Him being born of Mary.

Does that make sense and alleviate some of your confusion in regards to this verse?
(I can happily address other verses later, but wanted to make this part clear first)

Ether 3: 14
Ether 3: 14
14 Behold, I am he who was aprepared from the foundation of the world to b redeem my people. Behold, I am Jesus Christ. I am the cFather and the Son. In me shall all mankind have dlife, and that eternally, even they who shall believe on my name; and they shall become my esons and my daughters.

Before the Son came to earth in the Hebrew Scriptures, He was never called Jesus, nor Christ. What do you understand "I am the Father and the Son" to mean?
 
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Jane_Doe

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Ether 3: 14
Ether 3: 14
14 Behold, I am he who was aprepared from the foundation of the world to b redeem my people. Behold, I am Jesus Christ. I am the cFather and the Son. In me shall all mankind have dlife, and that eternally, even they who shall believe on my name; and they shall become my esons and my daughters.

Before the Son came to earth in the Hebrew Scriptures, He was never called Jesus, nor Christ. What do you understand "I am the Father and the Son" to mean?
First things first: did what I said in post #92 make sense to you?

I just want to make sure that point was clear and we're understanding each other first, before moving on to the next question.
 
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Ironhold

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What is the current statement by the Smithsonian Institution concerning the Book of Mormon?

The link I posted rather clearly presented the current response: it's a neutral, business-like bit simply noting that the Smithsonian does not use *any* religious texts as guides when examining history or conducting archaeological efforts.

As for the "CES Letter", here's a direct link to the PDF version of something that FAIR put out as a response. Why is it a PDF? It's a full 92 pages.

https://www.fairmormon.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/Bamboozled-by-the-CES-Letter-Final1.pdf

But yeah - even the CES Letter is old hat by now.

Took me longer to make a sandwich just now than to look that up.
 
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Ironhold

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Ironhold a game we used to play when I was a kid was to fill a field with tacklers and one guy without blockers run through them. I was 12 or 13 at that time. Pick a 14 year old, give him a bag of portland cement and have him play that game.

Show me a kid who's grown up under the circumstances JS grew up under.

Nowadays we don't even have enough people who are physically fit enough to pass muster for military enlistment...
 
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