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What is the Baptist view on Speaking/Praying in Tongues?

Discussion in 'Baptists' started by Colfax, Jan 25, 2014.

  1. now faith

    now faith Veteran Supporter

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    I apologize if I have offended you.
     
  2. Bluelion

    Bluelion Peace and Love

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    You don't think a demon could speak this way? I have heard a demon speak this way. I am not saying all tongues are unholy. I am saying If a person could speak tongues of God they could also of the evil one. Might not have even been tongues it was not understandable, but I did here a demon speak this same word for word way.

    That is great you speak in tongues not saying it is unholy at all in fact it could very well be from God, but what I am saying is what my brother spoke was un holy. The Spirit Of Truth was with me, you should know who that is, and when I heard it my first question pop out of my mouth was "do you have a demon". Notice the perfection of the question, It did not accuse at all but convicted. I am incapable of such perfection on my own, in fact i often accuse, which is something I am working on after I read Angels are even careful not to accuse.

    sorry if we got are wires crossed, but I was not saying tongues were evil just what my brother spoke was. In fact it was a spirit of lust, that was what the demon was I heard speak this way. That would make sense because He is living with a woman unmarried. He would be open to such a spirit. Just trying to figure it out. Its why I posted it.
     
  3. Bluelion

    Bluelion Peace and Love

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    did you make a mistake brother? I forgive you if you did and you are right to seek forgiveness from him. but if not state your position, does the word speak on such matters?

    1 cor 14

    For if you have the ability to speak in tongues,[a] you will be talking only to God, since people won’t be able to understand you. You will be speaking by the power of the Spirit, but it will all be mysterious.


    To me this suggest the spirit compels a person to speak in tongues and it is not a persons own will to do as they choose.

    The problem I have is when you say by your own will you can do this. I don't think this is right. A teacher can not teach of his own will or else he will be teaching his own doctrine. A Teacher much wait for The Holy Spirit to tell him what to say.
    8 Here are some of the parts God has appointed for the church:

    first are apostles,
    second are prophets,
    third are teachers,
    then those who do miracles,
    those who have the gift of healing,
    those who can help others,
    those who have the gift of leadership,
    those who speak in unknown languages.

    Are any of these gifts of our own will or by The Will Of The Holy Spirit?
     
  4. OzSpen

    OzSpen Regular Member

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    Near where I live in the outer suburbs of Brisbane Qld, at Burpengary, there is a Baptist Church called 'Access Church', that is as full-on Pentecostal-charismatic a many such churches I've visited.

    Are you aware that this topic has been addressed previously in this Baptist thread, 'What do Baptists believe about speaking in tongues?'

    However, to pick up your theme (only briefly):

    a. I Cor. 14:2, 4 refers to tongues for personal edification and not requiring interpretation — therefore it is not for use in the church. This seems to be what Paul is referring to when he says, “I thank God, I speak in tongues more than you all” (I Cor. 14:18). In the church, he prefers intelligibility: “I desire to speak five words with my mind, that I may instruct others also, rather than ten thousand words in a tongue” (14:19)

    b. I Cor. 14:14-18 contrasts speaking and singing “with the spirit” (tongues on the basis of v. 14) and praying with the mind. Therefore, throughout I Cor. 12-14, there seems to be an interchange of tongues (spiritual language or ecstatic utterance) as a language spoken to God for personal edification and tongues requiring interpretation for the edification of the church.

    Therefore, my conclusion is that I Cor. 12:28, 30 is referring to both kinds of tongues, which are not given to all believers. Why? Because “one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills” (I Cor. 12:11 NASB). I Cor. 12:14 emphasises: “For the body is not one member, but many.” Therefore, I do not find it surprising that tongues is restricted to some believers by the sovereignty of the Holy Spirit.

    This has led charismatic leader and pastor of a Vineyard church (USA), George Mallone, to state quite a few years ago: “Beyond doubt, one of the greatest theological tragedies to befall the church is the suggestion that tongues is a visible sign of having been baptized or filled with the Spirit” (Mallone 1983:90).

    I have provided fuller details at #151 at: http://www.christianforums.com/t1133006-16/.

    In Christ,
    Oz


    Works consulted
    Mallone, G. 1983, Those controversial gifts. Downers Grove, Illinois: InterVarsity Press.
     
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2014
  5. OzSpen

    OzSpen Regular Member

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    These verses give the 'purpose' for speaking in tongues and it is not to help a person speak in a foreign language for missionary service:
    Here 14:2,4 give 2 excellent reasons for the Spirit-given gift of tongues:

    • to speak to God, and
    • to be personally edified (build up oneself).
    I want to pursue these purposes that God has given to the church.


    Oz
     
  6. OzSpen

    OzSpen Regular Member

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    Why are you speaking pejoratively - calling it 'gibbering' and 'gibberish' - when God speaks of the genuine gift of tongues that is for the purpose of

    • speaking to God (1 Cor 14:2);
    • for personal edification (1 Cor 14:4);
    • revelation, knowledge, prophecy and teaching when it is accompanied with interpretation when the church gathers (1 Cor 14:6, 12-13).
    So the Scriptures teach that there are two purposes for tongues for the believer when not in a church gathering: speaking to God and personal edification. Sadly much of this personal gift of tongues (without interpretation) makes its way into the public gathering of the church. My understanding is that this is in error, based on 1 Cor 14.

    However, when in the midst of other people there must be the gift of interpretation of tongues for there to be a communication of revelation, knowledge, prophecy and teaching.

    There are extremes and errors in many dimensions of theology. That does not nullify the genuine. What applies to theology such as soteriology also applies to glossolalia. Extremes and error do not negate the authentic.

    In Jesus,
    Oz
     
  7. now faith

    now faith Veteran Supporter

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    Oz I agree with you post,and on tongues being qualified by Baptism of the Holy Spirit as a sign.

    Even though I believe it is,would you not agree that any gift or spiritual edification would be from the Holy
    Spirit.

    I am not contradicting myself between my statements,as in some Pentecostal circles the Baptism is believed to be necessary for salvation,as well as tongues.

    This is where the statements get crossed.

    Quite possibly the prophetic tongue would be manifest with the Baptism.


    Acts 19:1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples, 19:2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. 19:3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism. 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. 19:5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 19:6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2014
  8. South Bound

    South Bound I stand with Israel.

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    OK. Why must you speak in tongues to speak to God? Is speaking in tongues more efficacious than speaking to God in English?

    How does tongues personally edify you?

    Also, when you speak in tongues for "personal edification", who interprets that for you?



    Then why didn't you post the rest of the passage, which addresses the use of tongues in the Church?

    Because the way it is practiced today is gibbering and gibberish. I would go further and say that it's foolish.
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2014
  9. OzSpen

    OzSpen Regular Member

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    Let me make it very clear. I never said and I do not support how you put it by asking why I 'MUST ... speak in tongues'. Nobody MUST speak in tongues. Of all of the gifts, the Scriptures state, 'earnestly desire' spiritual gifts. I desire God's best for me - and I'll thank him for the gifts He gives me.
    God has stated that the gift of tongues does edify personally and that has been my experience. I take him at his word and that is how it happens. It enhances my relationship with the Lord for which I'm grateful.

    If you read the Scriptures I gave carefully, esp. 1 Cor 14:2, 4, you would not ask this second question about the need to interpret for personal edification. The Scriptures do not state that interpretation is necessary for personal edification. I agree with what the Scriptures state.
    Because I understood that any who read my post could read the rest of the passage.
    It might sound like 'gibbering and gibberish' and 'foolish' to you, but by the kinds of comments you have made in this response to me, you seem to be wanting to denigrate the gift of tongues. I have never experienced the gift of tongues as gibberish for personal edification but as one of God's special gifts for my relationship with God. If God gives the gift of tongues in the church, tongues must be accompanied by the gift of interpretation. That's Bible.

    I encourage you not to disparage the spiritual gifts that God has taught us about: 'Pursue love, and earnestly desire the spiritual gifts, especially that you may prophesy' (I Cor 14:1 ESV).

    May God encourage all of us to 'earnestly desire' the spiritual gifts. These are gifts of the Spirit of the Trinitarian Lord God almighty.

    In Christ,
    Oz
     
  10. South Bound

    South Bound I stand with Israel.

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    OK. If that's true, then why can't you answer the question?

    Not only did I read them, I even went to scripturetext.com and read the portions of the passage you conveniently omitted.

    That's why I asked you about them (which you still haven't answered, by the way).

    ...which brings me to my next question: How can you be edified by speaking an alleged language you don't even understand?

    Not at all. I'm merely pointing out that the way it is currently practiced in the Church today is Unbiblical.

    You keep saying that, but then you refuse to tell us how it benefits your relationship with God.

    You also refuse to answer my question, is tongues more efficacious than English?

    I don't. I disparage the Unbiblical use of those gifts.

    So, to recap, the questions you have left unanswered are:

    1. Are tongues more efficacious than English?

    2. How does tongues edify you?

    3. How are you edified by a language you don't understand?
     
  11. OzSpen

    OzSpen Regular Member

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    I join with you in offering a biblical correction for the unbiblical use of the gifts (incl tongues) that can be evident in some churches.

    Let's turn to the Scripture to answer your questions:

    1. Are tongues more efficacious than English?
    A yes or no answer is not helpful without an explanation of the nature of the gift of tongues and the issue that Paul was attempting to correct:
    (a) Ch 14:11-13 tells us some of the problem Paul was trying to correct. There were tongues without interpretation at Corinth in the church gathering and this was not on. One would be a 'foreigner' in such an atmosphere without interpretation. So Paul's message to the 21st century Pentecostal, charismatic, and other churches allowing expression of these gifts, would be the same as for Corinth: 'One who speaks in a tongue should pray for the power to interpret' (14:13 ESV).

    (b) 'If I pray in a tongue my spirit prays but my mind is unfruitful' (14:14). So tongues are more efficacious when I'm praying with my spirit to God. God gives a place to the spirit of the human being in communication with God.
    2. How does tongues edify you?
    Paul tells us things that are critical when speaking about tongues:
    (a) The tongues' speaker 'speaks not to men but to God' (14:2). So tongues is a means of communing with God by the Holy Spirit. We know from 14:13-14, 28 that those who speak in tongues are 'communing with God by the Spirit.... Paul understands the phenomenon basically to be prayer and praise' (Gordon Fee's language 1987:656)

    (b) My experience in God's prayer and praise language in the spirit/Spirit is just that. It's a special way of communing with God that I've never experienced while praying in my Aussie English.

    (c) So tongues edifies me in by my spirit communing with the Spirit of God in a language He has given me. I would never want to crush that understanding through Enlightenment thinking.
    3. How are you edified by a language you don't understand?
    That is partly answered by #2, but there is additional communication in 1 Cor 12-14. It is important not to minimise and underestimate what Paul states in 14:5, 'Now I want you all to speak in tongues', but even more to prophecy'. The first half of that sentence is often diminished, ignored, minimised or excised by some Christians.

    The one who speaks in tongues 'utters mysteries in the Spirit' (14:2 ESV). That is not possible in English. These 'mysteries' spoken by the Holy Spirit could mean what is stated in 1 Cor 13:2, but my experience is that the gift of tongues for personal edification (thus not needing interpretation) involves an encounter with the Spirit of God that is outside my rational understanding as a speaker. It would be the same for the hearer, so there is no place for the gift of tongues in a public gathering without a God-given gift of interpretation.

    How is it possible for language given by the Holy Spirit (tongues) and not understood in English to be edifying for the speaker, to be self-edifying? This is not egotistic, self-centred spiritual elitism. My experience is that this is through prayer and praise with the gift of glossolalia (tongues) as I Cor 14:14-15 indicates.

    However, 1 Cor 14:14-15 tells us how we can be edified by a language we cannot understand through the gift of tongues:
    The Spirit of God, through the Scriptures, here tells us that there is a way to be spiritually edified without using the cortex of the brain - through the gift of tongues where the spirit prays and the mind is not playing a pivotal part - thus being 'unfruitful'.

    So the Scripture exhorts us to use both - pray and sing with the spirit/Spirit through the gift of tongues and pray and sing with the mind. Paul taught us that there are favourable things that can happen in private devotions through the gift of tongues without interpretation, but his concern in the Corinthian church (and by application to the contemporary church) is that there should be no gift of tongues in a public, group church gathering without the gift of interpretation (see 14:5, 13, 27).

    By application, Paul's message to the contemporary church is, 'I want you all to speak in tongues' (14:5) but in the public gathering, 'one who speaks in a tongue should pray for the power to interpret' (14:13).

    Sincerely in Christ,
    Oz

    Works consulted
    Fee, G D 1987. The first epistle to the Corinthians (The New International Commentary on the New Testament), F F Bruce (gen ed). Grand Rapids, Michigan: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company.
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2014
  12. now faith

    now faith Veteran Supporter

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    Amen, Ozspen.

    Often times people do not realize the credentials of the other person,they are chatting with.


    Just a thought,what would the language in the heavenly realms be?

    I'm of the opinion it would have to be comprehended spirituality,due to the natural man's lack of understanding of spiritual
    Things.

    Our minds are temporal,our spirit is celestial in the Body of Christ.
     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2014
  13. Andrea411

    Andrea411 Guest

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    Derek Prince explains the reason why and how the disciples were saved and then baptized and how that is how we should do it also….
    he explains it in the first 20 minutes (approx) God bless, andrea

    Derek Prince - Exercising Spiritual Gifts (Part 1-3) - YouTube
     
  14. OzSpen

    OzSpen Regular Member

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    Thanks, brother for your encouragement. I'm not calling for exaltation of credentials, but for accuracy of exegesis and NT expression.

    Those of us who have had some involvement in the Pentecostal-charismatic movement know some of the extremes. I want to provide biblical material to counter those accusations. I am disappointed with that which is not supportable by Scripture, but that happens with a number of doctrines that are not unique to the charismatic movt, e.g. deity of Christ, extra-biblical revelation, etc.

    We don't know very much about the language in the spiritual realm except that it is language that communicates between our spirit and God's Spirit.

    I hope you understand that it is difficult to share with those who are skeptical towards tongues what it is that one experiences from the gift of glossolalia. We are blessed in the knowledge that 1 Cor 14 does provide us with some basic information - enough so that we know that there is a dimension of the gift of tongues for prayer and praise (without interpretation - in private devotions) that is not experienced in English and comprehended by the human brain.

    In Jesus,
    Oz
     
  15. Jeffwhosoever

    Jeffwhosoever Faithful Servant Staff Member Red Team - Moderator Supporter

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  16. OzSpen

    OzSpen Regular Member

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  17. now faith

    now faith Veteran Supporter

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    Among conversation with others about the gifts,it seems the tongues is the main issue.

    My dad was a Bapist Pastor,and when he was young he had a negative experience.
    It was in a church to him looked nuts and vulgar.

    I guess the ladies were rolling around dresses up,to my dad it was outlandish.

    Would be to me too especially if they brought out snakes.

    So we had few talks about the subject,but later on I had come to realize the truth in the Word is undeniable.

    It is hard to convey at times the blessing of praying in tongues,for me not being taught about
    The subject still received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit.

    It started in prayer utterance in tongues,then 3 years later a great outpouring was given to me that was like nothing I could ever imagine.
     
  18. OzSpen

    OzSpen Regular Member

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    Now Faith,

    Yes, tongues is among the main issue re the gifts, but that is understandable because it is so often abused and misunderstood. However, one of the reasons we have 1 Cor in the Bible is because of the abuse of tongues at Corinth. We have similar abuses today, but we have the dynamite correction of 1 Cor 12-14 to help us.

    I'm ashamed at times to be identified with the charismatic movement because of the abuse. I recently was invited to attend a nearby charismatic house church where it wasn't long before people were rolling on the floor, screaming, etc. I was so disgusted with what I was seeing that I spoke with the leader (guru?) and left the meeting. I will not submit myself to such ungodly behaviour where things were not being done decently and in order (cr 1 Cor 14:40).

    I have a low tolerance for false doctrine and disorder that I saw in that house church.

    I was fortunate in that it was quite a way back that I was introduced to the movement of God by his Spirit in a small group where the supernatural gifts were evident and there was order.

    I am blessed that my Baptist background gave me a solid base in theology in the early years of my Christian life. I have to admit that my involvement with the charismatic movement has caused me to be exposed to churches and interdenominational groups where there was sometimes a lack of solid biblical foundation.

    Oz


     
  19. South Bound

    South Bound I stand with Israel.

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    Why? They were questions to you about your experience.

    OK. We'll just mark that one down as a "no".

    That's not an answer. All you did is repeat the claim.
     
  20. OzSpen

    OzSpen Regular Member

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    You have taught me something very valuable. Spending about an hour in preparing material to respond to your post was a waste of time, as demonstrated by this kind of response.
     
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