What is the age of accountabilty to get saved and accept Jesus?

[Lion King]

Great question. God is of course at work in believers cooperating with us in order to bring about good, loving works in us for the benefit of us. But since we are involved in those, they are human works- although they are also divine works. That's not a bad thing; in fact, it's a great thing, since it allows us to be involved in God's work to renew his creation. But they are also commands that order us to behave according to his plan for our lives, and don't merit anything for us. But Lutherans, again, believe that's a good thing, because when we're not working for some sort of reward, our works are more genuinely focused on the good of our neighbor, whom he ought to love.

Contrast this with our views of the sacraments, which are God's works exclusively. Yes, the bread and wine in communion are products of human material culture, and yes, water is part of God's creation, but the direct actor in the sacraments is God. In a good, ethical, loving action on the part of a Christian on behalf of his/her fellow human being, we are the direct actor, however much God is there behind us, enabling us in the Spirit and filling us with Christ's love. In the sacraments, the human recipient- the person being baptized or the person receiving communion- is a completely passive vessel. There's a pastor there usually administering the sacrament, and in that sense a sacrament is a good work of cooperation between humans and God; but for the recipient, who is the primary subject in the sacramental act, there is no human action whatsoever. It is God alone, and God coming with grace upon grace.

So, baptism is a work of God alone, but loving others is a combination of God and human effort?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't the Scriptures say that those born of God have rested from all their works, and rely solely on the works of God for salvation?

Holy communion is a big one for the life of Christians. Granted, most Lutherans, like most Christians in the western tradition, don't believe infants should receive communion (though I do), but baptism and communion together form the pillars of the Christian life. They're absolutely central to our identity as individuals and as a community, and infants and the mentally-handicapped can fully participate in that. That same is true of holy absolution, which is the formal proclamation of the forgiveness of sins which, like other sacraments, is dependent solely on God's grace and not human activity. It is something unilateral that God alone does through the mouth of the pastor or fellow Christian.

In other words, you believe that babies and mentally handicapped people receive the grace of God that brings salvation by partaking in the sacraments?

If yes, how were babies and mentally handicapped people in the OT saved?

 

[ViaCrucis]

What do babies need to do to see the Kingdom of God?

Nothing. They are already inheritors of the Kingdom.

But Jesus called them to him, and said, Suffer little children to come to me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God. Luke 18:16

Christ further says that we must be like them. Are we, then, also as adults inheritors of the kingdom by default?

Also, when did I cease being a default inheritor of the kingdom and have to become born again?

Methinks you may need to try working on your theology a bit.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

If yes, how were babies and mentally handicapped people in the OT saved?

Same as us, trust in God's promises, "Abraham believed, and it was accounted to him as righteousness"

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Lion King]

Christ further says that we must be like them. Are we, then, also as adults inheritors of the kingdom by default?

And he said: "Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven." Matthew 18:3

No. You need to change and become like children to enter the promised land. In other words, humble yourself and totally depend on your Parent as all children do, and only then will you inherit His Kingdom.

Also, when did I cease being a default inheritor of the kingdom and have to become born again?

When you reached the age where you knew what is good and what is evil. Before reaching that age, God protected you and did not count your sins against you (Deut 1:37-40, James 4:17, John 9:41), but now He fully expects you to seek Him and His Kingdom.

Methinks you may need to try working on your theology a bit.

Way ahead of ya.

Same as us, trust in God's promises, "Abraham believed, and it was accounted to him as righteousness"

-CryptoLutheran

Why do Lutherans believe infant baptism is necessary for salvation?

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

So, baptism is a work of God alone, but loving others is a combination of God and human effort?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't the Scriptures say that those born of God have rested from all their works, and rely solely on the works of God for salvation?

Right. But loving others isn't a work for our salvation. It's a work for the benefit of others, and that takes some degree of human effort.

Plus, I'd have to see that passage in context. What sort of working are we resting from? Working for the renewal of the covenant? Absolutely. Working for the renewal of the creation? Absolutely not.

In other words, you believe that babies and mentally handicapped people receive the grace of God that brings salvation by partaking in the sacraments?

If yes, how were babies and mentally handicapped people in the OT saved?

By receiving the grace of God that brings salvation by partaking in those covenant signs and covenant actions that make people part of the covenant community- circumcision, Sabbath, Yom Kippur, and Pesach primarily. Of course, for Christians, the extended family of God built on the Jewish family of God, baptism fulfills the function of circumcision, and holy communion fulfills the functions of Sabbath, Yom Kippur, and Pesach. But the underlying reality remains the same- something is done to you (circumcision), comes to you inevitably (Sabbath), conveys forgiveness for you even though the event is far off (Yom Kippur), and delivers you (Pesach). So as ViaCrucis said, same as us: trust in God, for God is the one at work in us.

 

[HighwayMan]

No. All children belong to the LORD whether born of Christians, Atheists, Hindus, Muslims, Satanists, Buddhists etc. There is no need for invitation into God's Kingdom, since they are already of it. In Ezekiel, for instance, God calls the children born to pagan parents His own.

And you took your sons and daughters whom you bore to me and sacrificed them as food to the idols. Was your prostitution not enough? You slaughtered my children and sacrificed them to the idols. Ezekiel 16:20-21

While that sounds like a much more reasonable and merciful point of view, because asking people to worship a God that even sends babies to hell, well, I'll let the evangelicals answer that one...

But then the question becomes...well why not kill all these children before they grow old enough to be accountable for their actions? Surely a 3 year old kid who died and goes to heaven simply because she was too young is a better fate than living till your 30, making unrepentant mistakes and ending up in hell? Surely the person who does the killing will be damning himself, but that will save as many children as he possibly can from growing up and going to hell. Wouldn't it be a sacrifice worth making - one soul for many?

 

[ViaCrucis]

And he said: "Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven." Matthew 18:3

No. You need to change and become like children to enter the promised land. In other words, humble yourself and totally depend on your Parent as all children do, and only then will you inherit His Kingdom.

So I need to re-enter my mother's womb and become a child again? How does becoming like a child work in your theology exactly; sans the birth of regeneration mentioned in John 3.

When you reached the age where you knew what is good and what is evil. Before reaching that age, God protected you and did not count your sins against you (Deut 1:37-40, James 4:17, John 9:41), but now He fully expects you to seek Him and His Kingdom.

What age was that exactly? And how can I tell that I am fully capable of differentiating what is good and what is evil?

Is there a test I could take?

This is an awful lot of weight that you're putting on me to make sure I get all my t's crossed and i's dotted.

Can't I just trust in God's own good faithfulness toward me in and through Jesus Christ?

Way ahead of ya.

Not really. It's still awfully convoluted.

Why do Lutherans believe infant baptism is necessary for salvation?

We don't. We believe that Baptism is the Christ-instituted means by which God brings sinners into Christ, covering them with Christ and His righteousness, giving them the Holy Spirit, making them sons and daughters of God the Father, so that we might be made disciples, Christians.

As it is Jesus Christ who said, "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit and teaching them all that I have instructed."

It's how He said it's done, and so we--the Christian Church--do just that.

We don't refuse infants this Christ-instituted Baptism because infants are part of "all nations", and part of "for you and your children" (Acts 2:39); and there's simply no good reason, biblically, to deny to our children what Christ has given to all people to bring them into the joy and salvation of His eternal kingdom.

Now, perhaps, if we conveniently ignored everything the Bible says about Baptism and invent some non-biblical "spiritual baptism" that involves a lot of warm fuzzies by accomplishing some arbitrary thing such as "walking down the aisle" or some such then there wouldn't be much reason to baptize our children. But since we don't ignore what Scripture says, but embrace it, believe it, and confess it, we baptize our children so that they too might be disciples of Jesus Christ, heirs of salvation, and citizens of God's gracious kingdom.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Lion King]

While that sounds like a much more reasonable and merciful point of view, because asking people to worship a God that even sends babies to hell, well, I'll let the evangelicals answer that one...

But then the question becomes...well why not kill all these children before they grow old enough to be accountable for their actions?

..because murder is an abomination to God (Exodus 20:13).

Surely a 3 year old kid who died and goes to heaven simply because she was too young is a better fate than living till your 30, making unrepentant mistakes and ending up in hell? Surely the person who does the killing will be damning himself, but that will save as many children as he possibly can from growing up and going to hell. Wouldn't it be a sacrifice worth making - one soul for many?

No.

 

[Lion King]

Right. But loving others isn't a work for our salvation. It's a work for the benefit of others, and that takes some degree of human effort.

Plus, I'd have to see that passage in context. What sort of working are we resting from? Working for the renewal of the covenant? Absolutely. Working for the renewal of the creation? Absolutely not.

Tell me, what was Jesus Christ's reply in Luke 10:25-28 when asked "how does one receive eternal life"?

Since you consider love to be both a work of God and of man, then is not faith also a work of God and man in tandem? After all, faith, like love, is a gift from God.

By receiving the grace of God that brings salvation by partaking in those covenant signs and covenant actions that make people part of the covenant community- circumcision, Sabbath, Yom Kippur, and Pesach primarily. Of course, for Christians, the extended family of God built on the Jewish family of God, baptism fulfills the function of circumcision, and holy communion fulfills the functions of Sabbath, Yom Kippur, and Pesach. But the underlying reality remains the same- something is done to you (circumcision), comes to you inevitably (Sabbath), conveys forgiveness for you even though the event is far off (Yom Kippur), and delivers you (Pesach). So as ViaCrucis said, same as us: trust in God, for God is the one at work in us.

Oh, so male babies were saved by circumcision in the OT? Fascinating thoughts! Ever read Romans 4:9-12?

Anyway, how were female babies of the pagan Israelites saved in the OT?

 

[Lion King]

So I need to re-enter my mother's womb and become a child again? How does becoming like a child work in your theology exactly; sans the birth of regeneration mentioned in John 3.

Nicodemus, is that you?

No, you do not need to become a child again. You need to become LIKE a little child to enter the Kingdom of God. Note the difference?

Becoming like a little child = being born of water and the Spirit.

And he said: "Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven." Matthew 18:3

=​

Jesus answered, "Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit." John 3:5

What age was that exactly? And how can I tell that I am fully capable of differentiating what is good and what is evil?

In the OT, God let all the children under twenty years of age into the promised land because they had no knowledge of good and evil yet (Deuteronomy 1:34-40, Numbers 32:10-13).

Personally, I believe it's different for each child. For instance, Jesus Christ knew good from bad at an early age (Luke 2:52).

Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, and shall call His name Immanuel. Curds and honey He shall eat, that He may know to refuse the evil and choose the good. For before the Child shall know to refuse the evil and choose the good, the land that you dread will be forsaken by both her kings. Isaiah 7:14-16

Is there a test I could take?

Therefore to him that knows to do good, and does it not, to him it is sin. James 4:17

This is an awful lot of weight that you're putting on me to make sure I get all my t's crossed and i's dotted.

Can't I just trust in God's own good faithfulness toward me in and through Jesus Christ?

What burdens have I made you carry?

We don't. We believe that Baptism is the Christ-instituted means by which God brings sinners into Christ, covering them with Christ and His righteousness, giving them the Holy Spirit, making them sons and daughters of God the Father, so that we might be made disciples, Christians.

As it is Jesus Christ who said, "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit and teaching them all that I have instructed."

It's how He said it's done, and so we--the Christian Church--do just that.

We don't refuse infants this Christ-instituted Baptism because infants are part of "all nations", and part of "for you and your children" (Acts 2:39); and there's simply no good reason, biblically, to deny to our children what Christ has given to all people to bring them into the joy and salvation of His eternal kingdom.

Now, perhaps, if we conveniently ignored everything the Bible says about Baptism and invent some non-biblical "spiritual baptism" that involves a lot of warm fuzzies by accomplishing some arbitrary thing such as "walking down the aisle" or some such then there wouldn't be much reason to baptize our children. But since we don't ignore what Scripture says, but embrace it, believe it, and confess it, we baptize our children so that they too might be disciples of Jesus Christ, heirs of salvation, and citizens of God's gracious kingdom.

Yeah, you do.

Article 9 - Baptism
We believe, teach and confess that Baptism with water in the name of God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit is necessary because Christ commanded it so and that the grace of God (forgiveness and renewal) is offered through it (Matt. 28:29; John 3:5; Eph 5:26; 1 Pet. 3:21). Children should also be baptized, for in their being offered to God through Baptism the too are received into His grace (Mark 10:14; Acts 2:38-39).

According to Lutherans, it is necessary for babies to be baptized for salvation. This in my opinion, is contradictory to what the Scriptures teaches- infants don't need baptism to be received into the Kingdom of God, for they already belong to it. Infant baptism is nothing more than an empty ritual.

Anyway, if babies are received into God's grace by baptism, why did God call babies born to pagans His own children (Ezekiel 16:20-21)?

Why did refer to those children sacrificed by their pagan parents as innocents?

They did not destroy the peoples
as the Lord had commanded them,
35 but they mingled with the nations
and adopted their customs.
36 They worshiped their idols,
which became a snare to them.
37 They sacrificed their sons
and their daughters to false gods.
38 They shed innocent blood,
the blood of their sons and daughters,
whom they sacrificed to the idols of Canaan,
and the land was desecrated by their blood.
39 They defiled themselves by what they did;
by their deeds they prostituted themselves.- Psalm 106:34-39


PS. By the way, Acts 2:38-39 does not support infant baptism. The word "children" in that passage refers to the descendants of Israel. The promise was given to Israel/Jacob and his descendants.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Nicodemus, is that you?

No, you do not need to become a child again. You need to become LIKE a little child to enter the Kingdom of God. Note the difference?

Becoming like a little child = being born of water and the Spirit.

And he said: "Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven." Matthew 18:3

=​

Jesus answered, "Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit." John 3:5




In the OT, God let all the children under twenty years of age into the promised land because they had no knowledge of good and evil yet (Deuteronomy 1:34-40, Numbers 32:10-13).

Personally, I believe it's different for each child. For instance, Jesus Christ knew good from bad at an early age (Luke 2:52).

Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, and shall call His name Immanuel. Curds and honey He shall eat, that He may know to refuse the evil and choose the good. For before the Child shall know to refuse the evil and choose the good, the land that you dread will be forsaken by both her kings. Isaiah 7:14-16



Therefore to him that knows to do good, and does it not, to him it is sin. James 4:17

Okay, so in your theology a child is born automatically saved, and then at some point becomes unsaved because they become in some sense aware of the difference between wrong and right, and this happens sometime before the age of twenty based on the fact that the Israelites under 20 were allowed to enter the promised land because they hadn't snubbed their noses at God as their parents had in the past and for which reason they were forced to wander. Ergo sometime by age 20 one becomes accountable, and thus loses their default infant salvation, at which point they have to be born again by doing some odd combination of believing certain things and obeying certain commandments in order to return back to that child-like, pre-20 status they held previously.

Am I close?

What burdens have I made you carry?

You're placing the onus of salvation upon the shoulder of the sinner to get his t's crossed, rather than on the certain promises of God which God freely gives apart from ourselves.

Perhaps you are unfamiliar with St. Paul's letter to the Galatians, if so take a moment to give it a read.

Yeah, you do.Article 9 - Baptism
We believe, teach and confess that Baptism with water in the name of God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit is necessary because Christ commanded it so and that the grace of God (forgiveness and renewal) is offered through it (Matt. 28:29; John 3:5; Eph 5:26; 1 Pet. 3:21). Children should also be baptized, for in their being offered to God through Baptism the too are received into His grace (Mark 10:14; Acts 2:38-39).

According to Lutherans, it is necessary for babies to be baptized for salvation. This in my opinion, is contradictory to what the Scriptures teaches- infants don't need baptism to be received into the Kingdom of God, for they already belong to it. Infant baptism is nothing more than an empty ritual.

One can receive Baptism as an adult if they are coming to Christianity as an adult. I was baptized at 17 at my Foursquare church, my baptism is no less valid than if I had been baptized as an infant. You asked why Lutherans believe infant Baptism is necessary for salvation--and I answered that. We don't. We believe Baptism is necessary, and we do not exclude infants from Baptism.

By the way, that is the meaning of Article IX of the Augustana,

"Of Baptism they teach that it is necessary to salvation, and that through Baptism is offered the grace of God, and that children are to be baptized who, being offered to God through Baptism are received into God's grace."

Anyway, if babies are received into God's grace by baptism, why did God call babies born to pagans His own children (Ezekiel 16:20-21)?

Pagans eh?

"Again the word of YHVH came to me: 'Son of man, make known to Jerusalem her abominations," - Ezekiel 16:1-2

Why did refer to those children sacrificed by their pagan parents as innocents?

They did not destroy the peoples
as the Lord had commanded them,
35 but they mingled with the nations
and adopted their customs.
36 They worshiped their idols,
which became a snare to them.
37 They sacrificed their sons
and their daughters to false gods.
38 They shed innocent blood,
the blood of their sons and daughters,
whom they sacrificed to the idols of Canaan,
and the land was desecrated by their blood.
39 They defiled themselves by what they did;
by their deeds they prostituted themselves.- Psalm 106:34-39

Because they hadn't committed any crime, and were butchered in a brutal and cruel way by being offered as sacrifices to false gods. Also, those being addressed aren't pagans, but Israelites who whored themselves out to the gods of the Canaanites.

You seem to be getting a bit confused on that matter in your reading of these texts.

PS. By the way, Acts 2:38-39 does not support infant baptism. The word "children" in that passage refers to the descendants of Israel. The promise was given to Israel/Jacob and his descendants.

So Peter was telling Jacob, long dead, to repent and be baptized in the name of Christ; not the people who were present there, gathered in Jerusalem for Pentecost?

Fascinating.

-CryptoLuthearn

 

[PaladinValer]

As usual, the Lutheran position is something to behold.

I ascent to both Gratia's and Via's various replies and second them.

 

[Lion King]

Okay, so in your theology a child is born automatically saved, and then at some point becomes unsaved because they become in some sense aware of the difference between wrong and right, and this happens sometime before the age of twenty based on the fact that the Israelites under 20 were allowed to enter the promised land because they hadn't snubbed their noses at God as their parents had in the past and for which reason they were forced to wander. Ergo sometime by age 20 one becomes accountable, and thus loses their default infant salvation, at which point they have to be born again by doing some odd combination of believing certain things and obeying certain commandments in order to return back to that child-like, pre-20 status they held previously.

Am I close?

Nope.

Points of correction:

1. The children of Israel were allowed into the promised land not because they didn't disobey God as their parents did, but because they had no knowledge of good and evil. In a sense, they were like Adam and Eve before the fall.

2. Never said 20 years old was the cut off age. I merely gave an example as used in the Scriptures. Personally, I believe the age of accountability is different for each child. For instance, Jesus Christ knew good from bad at an early age (Luke 2:52).

3. A person does not become "unsaved" simply because they have reached the age of accountability. They become "unsaved" when they willingly choose to leave God's side and wander off [to never return], following the way of Balaam the son of Beor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness. There are several examples in the Scriptures of righteous people who never abandoned God from their births right until to their deaths (Abel, John the baptist). On the other hand, you have others, who like the prodigal son, strayed from the righteous path for a while, but eventually returned to the fold (Samson).

You're placing the onus of salvation upon the shoulder of the sinner to get his t's crossed, rather than on the certain promises of God which God freely gives apart from ourselves.

Perhaps you are unfamiliar with St. Paul's letter to the Galatians, if so take a moment to give it a read.

Why is everyone not saved? Our God is a merciful God, is He not? So why doesn't He save everyone?

One can receive Baptism as an adult if they are coming to Christianity as an adult. I was baptized at 17 at my Foursquare church, my baptism is no less valid than if I had been baptized as an infant. You asked why Lutherans believe infant Baptism is necessary for salvation--and I answered that. We don't. We believe Baptism is necessary, and we do not exclude infants from Baptism.

By the way, that is the meaning of Article IX of the Augustana,

"Of Baptism they teach that it is necessary to salvation, and that through Baptism is offered the grace of God, and that children are to be baptized who, being offered to God through Baptism are received into God's grace."

Isn't your motto, "we need not do anything for our salvation"?

So, why insist parents take their infants to be baptized for salvation?

Pagans eh?

"Again the word of YHVH came to me: 'Son of man, make known to Jerusalem her abominations," - Ezekiel 16:1-2

Yes. Pagans. You know, a person who sacrifices their children as food to idols/false gods (Jeremiah 32:30-35). That kind of thing.

And you took your sons and daughters whom you bore to me and sacrificed them as food to the idols. Was your prostitution not enough? You slaughtered my children and sacrificed them to the idols. In all your detestable practices and your prostitution you did not remember the days of your youth, when you were naked and bare, kicking about in your blood. Ezekiel 16:20-22


Why did God call the children born of pagans parents His own children?

Because they hadn't committed any crime, and were butchered in a brutal and cruel way by being offered as sacrifices to false gods. Also, those being addressed aren't pagans, but Israelites who whored themselves out to the gods of the Canaanites.

You seem to be getting a bit confused on that matter in your reading of these texts.

So, a person is considered innocent before God, simply because they are murdered in a horrible manner?

Btw, you do understand that pagans are people who worship other gods? The people of Israel became pagans when they chose to bow down to other gods.

So Peter was telling Jacob, long dead, to repent and be baptized in the name of Christ; not the people who were present there, gathered in Jerusalem for Pentecost?

Fascinating.

The nation of Israel is also called JACOB.

“But do not fear, O My servant Jacob,
And do not be dismayed, O Israel!
For behold, I will save you from afar,
And your offspring from the land of their captivity;
Jacob shall return, have rest and be at ease;
No one shall make him afraid.
28 Do not fear, O Jacob My servant,” says the Lord,
“For I am with you;
For I will make a complete end of all the nations
To which I have driven you,
But I will not make a complete end of you.
I will rightly correct you,
For I will not leave you wholly unpunished.”- Jeremiah 46:27-28

 

[Tangible]

Points of correction:

1. The children of Israel were allowed into the promised land not because they didn't disobey God as their parents did, but because they had no knowledge of good and evil. In a sense, they were like Adam and Eve before the fall.

Let's stop right there. You do realize that the children of Israel were all grown up when they crossed into the promised land, right? Or do you believe that Joshua and his cohorts were all adolescents?

Also, I'm wondering if you have any children or have ever been in the company of children, because my children have all exhibited knowledge of right and wrong at very early ages - I would say definitely by 18 months.

Check these out ...

Research shows toddlers understand right from wrong at just 19 months | Mail Online

Psychologists say babies know right from wrong even at six months

Children are born to know right from wrong, new research shows | Mail Online

The passage that speaks of a child knowing right from wrong is a prophetical passage, and the reference to the child's moral development is a reference to a specific time in the prophecy, not an indication of whether or not the child is accountable to God for his sinfulness.

 

[SAAN]

Let's stop right there. You do realize that the children of Israel were all grown up when they crossed into the promised land, right? Or do you believe that Joshua and his cohorts were all adolescents?

Also, I'm wondering if you have any children or have ever been in the company of children, because my children have all exhibited knowledge of right and wrong at very early ages - I would say definitely by 18 months.

Check these out ...

Research shows toddlers understand right from wrong at just 19 months | Mail Online

Psychologists say babies know right from wrong even at six months

Children are born to know right from wrong, new research shows | Mail Online

The passage that speaks of a child knowing right from wrong is a prophetical passage, and the reference to the child's moral development is a reference to a specific time in the prophecy, not an indication of whether or not the child is accountable to God for his sinfulness.

So if that is true, it is proof a teenager (13-17) will have the same accountability as a grown adult for rejecting the Gospel assuming they heard the message, understood it, and then rejected it.

I know God will have Mercy on many, but a 17yr old that has been to church and knows right from wrong in anything else should be able to know about biblical stuff too.

To me I think by 15-16yrs old a teen should be saved, assuming they have heard the message of Jesus and understand it.

 

[Lion King]

Let's stop right there. You do realize that the children of Israel were all grown up when they crossed into the promised land, right? Or do you believe that Joshua and his cohorts were all adolescents?

Yes, I understand that. God made Israel wander aimlessly in the wilderness until Moses and his generation were all dead, before allowing Joshua, Caleb and the kids (who were now adults) to enter the promised land.

How does that negate the fact that God only allowed infants and children (and two adults) into the promised land because they had no knowledge of good and evil?

Also, I'm wondering if you have any children or have ever been in the company of children, because my children have all exhibited knowledge of right and wrong at very early ages - I would say definitely by 18 months.

Check these out ...

Research shows toddlers understand right from wrong at just 19 months | Mail Online

Psychologists say babies know right from wrong even at six months

Children are born to know right from wrong, new research shows | Mail Online

For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the first principles of the oracles of God; and you have come to need milk and not solid food. For everyone who partakes only of milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, for he is a babe. But solid food belongs to those who are of full age, that is, those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil. Hebrews 5:12-14

Babies don't know how to discern between right and wrong. Does an 18 month old infant know lying is a sin?

PS. did you just quote from a tabloid newspaper like daily mail as your proof?

The passage that speaks of a child knowing right from wrong is a prophetical passage, and the reference to the child's moral development is a reference to a specific time in the prophecy, not an indication of whether or not the child is accountable to God for his sinfulness.

I never directly used Isaiah 7:14-16 to prove babies are not held accountable for sin.

 

[Tangible]

So if that is true, it is proof a teenager (13-17) will have the same accountability as a grown adult for rejecting the Gospel assuming they heard the message, understood it, and then rejected it.

I know God will have Mercy on many, but a 17yr old that has been to church and knows right from wrong in anything else should be able to know about biblical stuff too.

To me I think by 15-16yrs old a teen should be saved, assuming they have heard the message of Jesus and understand it.

But again, God does not need us to rationally understand the Gospel in order for it to do its work of justification in us. A 15-16 month old can be saved by hearing the word just as well as a 15-16 year old because it's not the one being justified that is doing the justifying, it's God doing the justifying.

As for accountability, there is nothing in scripture to suggest that any sinner, regardless of age, is not accountable to God for their sinfulness. We are all by nature children of wrath.

 

[Tangible]

Yes, I understand that. God made Israel wander aimlessly in the wilderness until Moses and his generation were all dead, before allowing Joshua, Caleb and the kids (who were now adults) to enter the promised land.

How does that negate the fact that God only allowed infants and children (and two adults) into the promised land because they had no knowledge of good and evil?



For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the first principles of the oracles of God; and you have come to need milk and not solid food. For everyone who partakes only of milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, for he is a babe. But solid food belongs to those who are of full age, that is, those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil. Hebrews 5:12-14

Babies don't know how to discern between right and wrong. Does an 18 month old infant know lying is a sin?

PS. did you just quote from a tabloid newspaper like daily mail as your proof?



I never directly used Isaiah 7:14-16 to prove babies are not held accountable for sin.

There is simply no scriptural basis for the idea that each and every human being is not born under the wrath of God, righteously condemned by a righteous God for their inborn sinfulness.

Knowing right from wrong and being able to think rationally and process language never enters into it.

 

[HighwayMan]

But again, God does not need us to rationally understand the Gospel in order for it to do its work of justification in us. A 15-16 month old can be saved by hearing the word just as well as a 15-16 year old because it's not the one being justified that is doing the justifying, it's God doing the justifying.

As for accountability, there is nothing in scripture to suggest that any sinner, regardless of age, is not accountable to God for their sinfulness. We are all by nature children of wrath.

I wonder if all the unsaved babies and toddlers burning in the eternal fires of hell right now go to kindergarten torture there, or if they are allowed to hang and be tortured with the adults...

The 'good news,' everyone...

 

[Lion King]

But again, God does not need us to rationally understand the Gospel in order for it to do its work of justification in us. A 15-16 month old can be saved by hearing the word just as well as a 15-16 year old because it's not the one being justified that is doing the justifying, it's God doing the justifying.

If understanding the Gospel is of no importance, then why did most of the disciples walk away from Jesus Christ?

Why did the Jews want to kill Christ when He said He was the Son of God?

As for accountability, there is nothing in scripture to suggest that any sinner, regardless of age, is not accountable to God for their sinfulness.

The kids of Israel were let into the promised land because they had no knowledge of good and evil. God didn't hold them accountable for their sins as He did to Moses and the rest of adults. That's one example shown in the Scriptures, which you repeatedly choose to disregard.

We are all by nature children of wrath.

You are taking Ephesians 2:3-5 out of context. Mankind is created in the image of God (Genesis 9:6, James 3:9), but become children of wrath due to following our own fleshly desires.

In other words, no baby is born spiritually dead because of Adam's sin, but we become spiritually dead due to our own sins and trespasses.

There is a reason Jesus Christ commands us all to become like little children if we desire to inherit the Kingdom of God:

And he said: "Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven." Matthew 18:3