What is the age of accountabilty to get saved and accept Jesus?

[Lion King]

Not proof of them already being inheritors. They needed to be invited first. And that is what Jesus does here, and since Jesus Himself said that He came to save sinners, that means those little children were sinners too.

Thus says the Holy Scripture. No Age of Accountability. No Gnosticism. Just salvation by grace alone by living faith alone, which is done, begun, and is made possible by the Sacrament of Holy Baptism, prefigured in such stories as Creation itself, the Deluge, the Crossing of the Sea of Reeds, and many, many others.

No. All children belong to the LORD whether born of Christians, Atheists, Hindus, Muslims, Satanists, Buddhists etc. There is no need for invitation into God's Kingdom, since they are already of it. In Ezekiel, for instance, God calls the children born to pagan parents His own.

And you took your sons and daughters whom you bore to me and sacrificed them as food to the idols. Was your prostitution not enough? You slaughtered my children and sacrificed them to the idols. Ezekiel 16:20-21

 

[Standing Up]

All that.

There may be an age of accountability for ethics, but there is no such thing when it comes to getting saved, because we aren't accountable for getting saved. God's the one doing that, and it has nothing to do with our intellectual ability and everything to do with his grace and our being in his grace: a situation of total dependence, or trust, or- no surprise here- faith.

What I want to know is whether Baptistic theology developed the concept of an age of accountability in order to rescue non-Christian babies from hell, or to justify withholding baptism from infants. The former is laudable if misguided, whereas the latter is a monstrous denial of God's grace from human sinners.

I suspect you have that backwards. It was the idea of regenerative water baptism that led to infant baptism. And the RC idea of inherited/original sin. Believe EO does not have that doctrine in that form.

 

[Rubiks]

It doesn't exist. If someone sins, they sin. regardless of age. The age of accountability has no biblical support whatsoever.

 

[PaladinValer]

What about toddlers many have yet to understand and some do. Are they bound to hell. What of many children and teens who have not yet understood what they have gotten themselves into. I do I was one.

No one is put in any special category.

The good news is that salvation is completely unintellectual. That's a GIFT! We don't have to comprehend complex theology; we just need to trust it. A severely or even profoundly mentally challenged child can trust; he or she just cannot understand, but that's not what is necessary.

That is why Age Accountability is so dangerous. It makes God's grace dependent on our ability to receive it. The only thing we need is faith, which is supplied by God. Anything else is not necessary.

I don't need to know how the quadratic equation works for it to work. Likewise, I don't need to understand the Triune truth of God for Him to truly be as the Nicene Creed theologizes. Equally so, I don't need to understand salvation to be saved.

The Scriptures say otherwise and that's all that matters to me. Your church's teachings and traditions are of no significance to me.

None of the passages cited had anything to do with age accountability.

When the Lord heard what you said, he was angry and solemnly swore: 35 “No one from this evil generation shall see the good land I swore to give your ancestors, 36 except Caleb son of Jephunneh. He will see it, and I will give him and his descendants the land he set his feet on, because he followed the Lord wholeheartedly.”

37 Because of you the Lord became angry with me also and said, “You shall not enter it, either. 38 But your assistant, Joshua son of Nun, will enter it. Encourage him, because he will lead Israel to inherit it. 39 And the little ones that you said would be taken captive, your children who do not yet know good from bad—they will enter the land. I will give it to them and they will take possession of it. 40 But as for you, turn around and set out toward the desert along the route to the Red Sea.” Deuteronomy 1:34-40

Again, only Caleb, Joshua and the children were allowed to enter the promised land by God.

Oh for crying out loud...

I'm 32 and I'm still a child of my parents. My age doesn't mean I am not longer their child.

Argument destroyed.

 

[Lion King]

None of the passages cited had anything to do with age accountability.

Yes, they do.

Oh for crying out loud...

I'm 32 and I'm still a child of my parents. My age doesn't mean I am not longer their child.

Argument destroyed.

Ummm, didn't you claim that none of the people that left Egypt made it into the promised land?

So the Lord’s anger was aroused on that day, and He swore an oath, saying, 11 ‘Surely none of the men who came up from Egypt, from twenty years old and above, shall see the land of which I swore to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, because they have not wholly followed Me, 12 except Caleb the son of Jephunneh, the Kenizzite, and Joshua the son of Nun, for they have wholly followed the Lord.’ 13 So the Lord’s anger was aroused against Israel, and He made them wander in the wilderness forty years, until all the generation that had done evil in the sight of the Lord was gone. Numbers 32:10-13


Joshua, Caleb and everyone under twenty years old made it into the promised land as proven by the Scriptures.

You're welcome.

 

[SayaOtonashi]

what of babies who have yet to heard the good news or any toddler. What will happen to them?

 

[SAAN]

I know its not supported as a biblical doctrine as far as a set age as to when one should be saved assuming they have heard about and been taught the gospels and can actually comprehend it, but I have heard pastors before strongly say the age is 13 even though that is THEIR opinion and not God.

I know many 16-18 yr olds that know much of the bible better than 30-40 yr old adults.


But if we think a young adult that has heard about Jesus should be saved by 16-18 yrs old before they go off to college or out into the world, is it wrong to assume that at some point and time a teenager needs to make that decision if they want to follow Christ or not. Im not saying getting saved means they will become angels, since many kids go off to college and dont come back to church after they graduate college, but atleast if they are saved and serious about their walk they have some sort of spiritual conviction to try to guide them back in the right path.

 

[Lion King]

what of babies who have yet to heard the good news or any toddler. What will happen to them?

They will be in the promised land.

 

[Tiredknight]

They will be in the promised land.

There is no scripture to back that up though, atleast any scripture that has to do with Justification...

I agree with that, babies are protected, but that is whole other subject and can o worms...

 

[Lion King]

There is no scripture to back that up though, atleast any scripture that has to do with Justification...

I agree with that, babies are protected, but that is whole other subject and can o worms...

Moreover your little ones, which you said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and to them will I give it, and they shall possess it. Deuteronomy 1:39


“Because they have forsaken Me and made this an alien place, because they have burned incense in it to other gods whom neither they, their fathers, nor the kings of Judah have known, and have filled this place with the blood of the innocents (they have also built the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings to Baal, which I did not command or speak, nor did it come into My mind), therefore behold, the days are coming,” says the Lord, “that this place shall no more be called Tophet or the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, but the Valley of Slaughter. Jeremiah 19:4-6


Brothers and sisters, stop thinking like children. In regard to evil be infants, but in your thinking be adults. 1 Corinthians 14:20

There are several passages in the Scriptures that suggest that God all babies are innocent.

 

[PaladinValer]

Yes, they do.

None.

Ummm, didn't you claim that none of the people that left Egypt made it into the promised land?

Yup.

So the Lord’s anger was aroused on that day, and He swore an oath, saying, 11 ‘Surely none of the men who came up from Egypt, from twenty years old and above, shall see the land of which I swore to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, because they have not wholly followed Me, 12 except Caleb the son of Jephunneh, the Kenizzite, and Joshua the son of Nun, for they have wholly followed the Lord.’ 13 So the Lord’s anger was aroused against Israel, and He made them wander in the wilderness forty years, until all the generation that had done evil in the sight of the Lord was gone. Numbers 32:10-13

Joshua, Caleb and everyone under twenty years old made it into the promised land as proven by the Scriptures.

You're welcome.

That may correct my "yup" but it is, in no way, proof of your unorthodox belief because it assumes a reason for their exclusion that isn't explicit.

And the fact of the matter is, the Holy Writ makes it clear many times God doesn't care about such considerations:

"Then Peter began to speak to them: 'I truly understand that God shows no partiality, but in every nation anyone who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him.'" (NRSV Acts 10:34-35)

We cannot have one passage contradict another, so if the above is true, then your interpretation of the other passages cannot.

Gnosticism is an invalid theology that condemns.

 

[Lion King]

None.

Not surprised one bit.

That may correct my "yup" but it is, in no way, proof of your unorthodox belief because it assumes a reason for their exclusion that isn't explicit.

And the fact of the matter is, the Holy Writ makes it clear many times God doesn't care about such considerations:

"Then Peter began to speak to them: 'I truly understand that God shows no partiality, but in every nation anyone who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him.'" (NRSV Acts 10:34-35)

We cannot have one passage contradict another, so if the above is true, then your interpretation of the other passages cannot.

Gnosticism is an invalid theology that condemns.

What are you going on about? Who said the children of Israel were saved because of their bloodline?

Strawman argument.

 

[Tangible]

I know its not supported as a biblical doctrine as far as a set age as to when one should be saved assuming they have heard about and been taught the gospels and can actually comprehend it, but I have heard pastors before strongly say the age is 13 even though that is THEIR opinion and not God.

I know many 16-18 yr olds that know much of the bible better than 30-40 yr old adults.


But if we think a young adult that has heard about Jesus should be saved by 16-18 yrs old before they go off to college or out into the world, is it wrong to assume that at some point and time a teenager needs to make that decision if they want to follow Christ or not. Im not saying getting saved means they will become angels, since many kids go off to college and dont come back to church after they graduate college, but atleast if they are saved and serious about their walk they have some sort of spiritual conviction to try to guide them back in the right path.

This assumes that the one being saved is required to pass some test of cognition.

Hearing the Gospel does not necessarily require rational comprehension any more than dead Lazarus was required to rationally comprehend Jesus calling him back to life.

It is not our comprehension of language that saves us. It is the Word of God, acting through the means of the spoken word (or combined with water) that acts to save.

What saves us is God's living, active, creative, efficacious Word.

There are no prerequisites to salvation for the one being saved. There is no test of age or ability. As a matter of fact, that's exactly what Jesus was talking about when he said that we must be saved in the same manner as a little child and why Jesus likens justification to birth. We contribute nothing of ourselves to salvation.

But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. (Rom 3)

 

[Lion King]

This assumes that the one being saved is required to pass some test of cognition.

Hearing the Gospel does not necessarily require rational comprehension any more than dead Lazarus was required to rationally comprehend Jesus calling him back to life.

It is not our comprehension of language that saves us. It is the Word of God, acting through the means of the spoken word (or combined with water) that acts to save.

What saves us is God's living, active, creative, efficacious Word.

There are no prerequisites to salvation for the one being saved. There is no test of age or ability. As a matter of fact, that's exactly what Jesus was talking about when he said that we must be saved in the same manner as a little child and why Jesus likens justification to birth. We contribute nothing of ourselves to salvation.

But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. (Rom 3)

If comprehension of the language is of no necessity, why did God give the apostles the ability of speaking in other tongues?

When the day of Pentecost came, they were all together in one place. 2 Suddenly a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3 They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. 4 All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them. Acts 2:1-4

 

[Lion King]

There are no prerequisites to salvation for the one being saved. There is no test of age or ability. As a matter of fact, that's exactly what Jesus was talking about when he said that we must be saved in the same manner as a little child and why Jesus likens justification to birth. We contribute nothing of ourselves to salvation.

If we contribute nothing to our salvation, why do you think baptizing infants gets them into heaven?

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

If we contribute nothing to our salvation, why do you think baptizing infants gets them into heaven?

Baptism isn't something we do to ourselves. It's something God does to us. Even on the most literal level, people are taken under and carried back up in immersion, or sprinkled with water, or have water poured over them. This is especially true with infants. Baptism is done to us, not a work we do. And being done to us, the ultimate actor doing the action is God, imparting his grace, regenerating us, making us part of his body, just as the New Testament teaches in almost every reference to baptism.

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

If comprehension of the language is of no necessity, why did God give the apostles the ability of speaking in other tongues?

When the day of Pentecost came, they were all together in one place. 2 Suddenly a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3 They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. 4 All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them. Acts 2:1-4

Because faith comes by hearing the word, and for those who can understand it is good and important that they understand, since faith does have an intellectual component. But faith doesn't necessarily have an intellectual component, and so God gave us other means of grace for infants and severely mentally handicapped people.

 

[Lion King]

Baptism isn't something we do to ourselves. It's something God does to us. Even on the most literal level, people are taken under and carried back up in immersion, or sprinkled with water, or have water poured over them. This is especially true with infants. Baptism is done to us, not a work we do. And being done to us, the ultimate actor doing the action is God, imparting his grace, regenerating us, making us part of his body, just as the New Testament teaches in almost every reference to baptism.

Interesting. Why do the Lutherans consider then keeping the commandments of God as "works"? I mean, is it not God working in us that enables us to love others?

 

[Lion King]

Because faith comes by hearing the word, and for those who can understand it is good and important that they understand, since faith does have an intellectual component. But faith doesn't necessarily have an intellectual component, and so God gave us other means of grace for infants and severely mentally handicapped people.

What other means of grace did God give for babies and mentally-handicapped people?

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

Interesting. Why do the Lutherans consider then keeping the commandments of God as "works"? I mean, is it not God working in us that enables us to love others?

Great question. God is of course at work in believers cooperating with us in order to bring about good, loving works in us for the benefit of us. But since we are involved in those, they are human works- although they are also divine works. That's not a bad thing; in fact, it's a great thing, since it allows us to be involved in God's work to renew his creation. But they are also commands that order us to behave according to his plan for our lives, and don't merit anything for us. But Lutherans, again, believe that's a good thing, because when we're not working for some sort of reward, our works are more genuinely focused on the good of our neighbor, whom he ought to love.

Contrast this with our views of the sacraments, which are God's works exclusively. Yes, the bread and wine in communion are products of human material culture, and yes, water is part of God's creation, but the direct actor in the sacraments is God. In a good, ethical, loving action on the part of a Christian on behalf of his/her fellow human being, we are the direct actor, however much God is there behind us, enabling us in the Spirit and filling us with Christ's love. In the sacraments, the human recipient- the person being baptized or the person receiving communion- is a completely passive vessel. There's a pastor there usually administering the sacrament, and in that sense a sacrament is a good work of cooperation between humans and God; but for the recipient, who is the primary subject in the sacramental act, there is no human action whatsoever. It is God alone, and God coming with grace upon grace.

What other means of grace did God give for babies and mentally-handicapped people?

Holy communion is a big one for the life of Christians. Granted, most Lutherans, like most Christians in the western tradition, don't believe infants should receive communion (though I do), but baptism and communion together form the pillars of the Christian life. They're absolutely central to our identity as individuals and as a community, and infants and the mentally-handicapped can fully participate in that. That same is true of holy absolution, which is the formal proclamation of the forgiveness of sins which, like other sacraments, is dependent solely on God's grace and not human activity. It is something unilateral that God alone does through the mouth of the pastor or fellow Christian.