How would you define trust and faith in regards to being saved?

[bling]

Yes of course. God IS Love.

My question was: "How do we get this Love ourself?"

 

[bling]

Oh, they can participate, they can pick up their cross daily and follow-or not. They can come to want what God wants. And like a good Parent that's exactly what He's prompting us to do. Salvation is a result of being freely justified, and justification means more that a declared state of righteousness but it's a new state, as we become new creations, now children of God, given the gift of righteousness which is spoken of all through the letter to the Romans and elsewhere, now able to be obedient as we're translated from slaves to sin to slaves to righteousness. And do so they must:
"Make every effort to live in peace with everyone and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord." Heb 12:14

"To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life." Rom 2:7

"For when you were slaves to sin, you were free of obligation to righteousness. What fruit did you reap at that time from the things of which you are now ashamed? The outcome of those things is death. But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God, the fruit you reap leads to holiness, and the outcome is eternal life. " Rom 6:20-22

This is why salvation is spoken of as happening in past, present, and future tense in Scripture. The state of justice/righteousness that means salvation can be compromised and forfeited as we live unjustly, rather than embracing, investing, expressing, and growing in that gift, that grace.

I asked only about the nonbeliever and not what the believer can do with the objective.
I went on in my post 28 giving the only thing he can really do.

 

[fhansen]

Knowledge (experiences) does not come from “faith”, yet knowledge can replace faith and faith can replace the need for knowledge. When I talk with agnostics and atheist, I am not seeing the lack of “knowledge” being the issue, as much as it is their dislike of the Christian God, their pride and their selfishness. Did the Pharisees lack know of Jesus, so was that their problem?

Reason and knowledge can be used by God to supplement and support faith, offering "motives of credibility", as they've been called. Read Rom 1:18-20 Our lives here are a package deal, so to speak, Everything we experience is ultimately meant to play a part in steering us to God. That's why were here!

All mature adults have a God given faith, which they can use to trust in wooden idol and lots of other people and things. What might cause people to direct their faith toward God?

Grace, together with the disappointments and dissatisfaction that false idols provide, for one thing. Adam opened the door to worshipping everything other than God. Were here to learn that we need something "bigger" something perfect, something Adam dismissed. "God, alone, satisfies", as Aquinas put it. That's really the only honest way it works-that's why we might seek God, and respond to Him.

The only way I see to initially obtain this “Love” is what Jesus taught us in Luke 7: 36-50 (he that is forgiven much Loves much), so if we humbly accept as pure undeserved charity, God’s forgiving us of the unbelievable huge debt, our sin has created, we will automatically be gifted with an unbelievable huge “Love” (Godly type Love). This means: “sin has purpose”, and is needed to help the unbeliever in accepting God’s Love in the form of being forgiven. The unbelieving sinner will also need just a little humility to humbly accept pure charity and faith to trust in a benevolent Creator to extend true forgiveness.

Well, none of this is really contrary to what I've said. Love is a gift of God, it's supernatural to the extent that He wants it in us. So He shows and demonstrates and grants it to us as we respond to it. His image already resides inside but must be awoken and strengthened and made responsive. Its a cooperative effort, He calling: like calling out to like and we responding, or not. We can't conjure it up on our own. In any case its not merely an earthly objective, it's the whole enchilada, what we were made for. Gotta go for now.

 

[fhansen]

I asked only about the nonbeliever and not what the believer can do with the objective.
I went on in my post 28 giving the only thing he can really do.

Maybe I misread. I'll go back and revisit later. Work calls now, dang it.

 

[fhansen]

This means: “sin has purpose”, and is needed to help the unbeliever in accepting God’s Love in the form of being forgiven.

Sin definitely has a purpose, which is to help us finally learn to hate and shun it and so, yes, to turn to God when He calls so that we might be forgiven of it and overcome it. This is to choose good over evil, this is to choose God, the ultimate Good, over evil. So God let us touch the hot stove in order to learn about it for ourselves, in order to learn that Adam was wrong in his bid for freedom from God. We all value freedom and freedom is a beautiful gift from Him, but it has its proper and improper use-and God knows best the proper use of it.

And, if you've noticed, all people suffer from an over-abundance of pride, while never having an overabundance of humility. We're all very ego-sensitive to an unreasonable degree IMO. And this pride is a mark of our fallen nature and the source of our distance from God and conflicts with each other. In fact, a teaching I'm familiar with and have come to appreciate says that, with the Fall, man became divided in some manner from God, from his fellow man, from the rest of creation, and from and within himself. So we experiment with and struggle with this pride that causes us trouble as we inevitably carry on the family tradition initiated by Adam. Until, hopefully, with the help of grace we begin to value higher things having become jaded with the paltry offerings of this world, Man was absolutely made for communion with God and can never completely find rest or his true home until that union is complete in the next life.

 

[bling]

Reason and knowledge can be used by God to supplement and support faith, offering "motives of credibility", as they've been called. Read Rom 1:18-20 Our lives here are a package deal, so to speak, Everything we experience is ultimately meant to play a part in steering us to God. That's why were here!

I was addressing your comment about knowledge coming from faith and not if knowledge and reasoning can supplement faith.

Grace, together with the disappointments and dissatisfaction that false idols provide, for one thing. Adam opened the door to worshipping everything other than God. Were here to learn that we need something "bigger" something perfect, something Adam dismissed. "God, alone, satisfies", as Aquinas put it. That's really the only honest way it works-that's why we might seek God, and respond to Him.

I certainly will not be “blaming” Adam for idols in the past.

As I have said: “this messed up world is the very best place for willing individuals to fulfill their earthly objective”, so maybe we should thank Adam and Eve for going through the trauma of the Garden time to bring us to the better place to fulfill our objective with the knowledge of the Garden situation.

We are here to trust in God’s Love to relieve us of the burden our sins in the past have burdened us with and thus accept God’s Forgiveness (Love).

Well, none of this is really contrary to what I've said. Love is a gift of God, it's supernatural to the extent that He wants it in us. So He shows and demonstrates and grants it to us as we respond to it. His image already resides inside but must be awoken and strengthened and made responsive. Its a cooperative effort, He calling: like calling out to like and we responding, or not. We can't conjure it up on our own. In any case its not merely an earthly objective, it's the whole enchilada, what we were made for. Gotta go for now.

OK

 

[bling]

Sin definitely has a purpose, which is to help us finally learn to hate and shun it and so, yes, to turn to God when He calls so that we might be forgiven of it and overcome it. This is to choose good over evil, this is to choose God, the ultimate Good, over evil. So God let us touch the hot stove in order to learn about it for ourselves, in order to learn that Adam was wrong in his bid for freedom from God. We all value freedom and freedom is a beautiful gift from Him, but it has its proper and improper use-and God knows best the proper use of it.

We, as sinners, initially do not choose good over evil, that would be a righteous, worthy, honorable and holy action, deserving of something, and as nonbelievers we cannot “do” anything righteous or worthy,

As sinners we can some time choose to do different sins. We thus can choose for selfish reasons (thus a sinful reason) to humble accept pure undeserved charity even from our hated enemy (God) while we are still hating Him (soldiers do this in war). This allows God to shower us with unbelievable wonderful gifts including forgiveness and thus we Love (Luke 7).

And, if you've noticed, all people suffer from an over-abundance of pride, while never having an overabundance of humility. We're all very ego-sensitive to an unreasonable degree IMO. And this pride is a mark of our fallen nature and the source of our distance from God and conflicts with each other. In fact, a teaching I'm familiar with and have come to appreciate says that, with the Fall, man became divided in some manner from God, from his fellow man, from the rest of creation, and from and within himself. So we experiment with and struggle with this pride that causes us trouble as we inevitably carry on the family tradition initiated by Adam. Until, hopefully, with the help of grace we begin to value higher things having become jaded with the paltry offerings of this world, Man was absolutely made for communion with God and can never completely find rest or his true home until that union is complete in the next life.

Pride is a huge problem, which Jesus repeatedly brings up, with humility always being emphasized.

Did Adam and Eve before the “fall”, have pride and selfishness in order for them to have sinned?

If they did, than the “fall” did not create our pride and selfishness.

I might get a little philosophical here:

We are all born with a needed survival instinct, which even Adam and Eve would need give value to life and to avoid death, but this instinct makes us self-aware and concerned for self.

Being self-aware and concerned for self, fights against selfless concern for others, unless the person already has Godly type Love (is unselfish).

Adam and Eve could communion with God, prior to them sinning, but they did not yet have Godly type Love (only obtained by Luke 7 action), but after obtaining Godly type Love they and us can have a much stronger communion with God.

 

[fhansen]

I was addressing your comment about knowledge coming from faith and not if knowledge and reasoning can supplement faith.

My comment concerned the faith, i.e. Christianity, the purpose of which is to introduce us to God, to give us the "knowledge of God" or "knowledge of Christ" as its called in the bible, a knowledge which begins in the head and is meant to move to the heart, increasingly becoming personal knowledge.

As I have said: “this messed up world is the very best place for willing individuals to fulfill their earthly objective”, so maybe we should thank Adam and Eve for going through the trauma of the Garden time to bring us to the better place to fulfill our objective with the knowledge of the Garden situation.

We're here to learn the value of God and His love over anything else, including false idols. Love opposes and overcomes/triumphs over sin. Adam, it could be said, created idolization, in general, valuing other, created things beginning with himself, it appears, over God first above all else. That's why the first few commandments as well as the greatest commandment are what they are. And, no, blaming Adam will do no good. As I stated before this is all part of a bigger plan of God's. We're left in the hands of our own counsel to see which way we'll proceed, accountable for our own actions. God didn't create evil-and didn't welcome it even though He has determined to bring an even greater good out of it at the end of the day. But He allows it as it does serve a purpose, for us to come to know-and then to shun it.

 

[fhansen]

Pride is a huge problem, which Jesus repeatedly brings up, with humility always being emphasized.

Did Adam and Eve before the “fall”, have pride and selfishness in order for them to have sinned?

If they did, than the “fall” did not create our pride and selfishness.

I might get a little philosophical here:

We are all born with a needed survival instinct, which even Adam and Eve would need give value to life and to avoid death, but this instinct makes us self-aware and concerned for self.

Being self-aware and concerned for self, fights against selfless concern for others, unless the person already has Godly type Love (is unselfish).

Adam and Eve could communion with God, prior to them sinning, but they did not yet have Godly type Love (only obtained by Luke 7 action), but after obtaining Godly type Love they and us can have a much stronger communion with God.

Adam & Eve hadn't yet come to love, to love God and neighbor. That's a tall order for us and presumably one that has been fulfilled by now in them- we can't know at this point, of course. And love produces obedience by its nature.

As with all sin, pride is the abuse of a natural, created good, as gluttony is the abuse of the good and natural appetite for food and the pleasure derived from it. Self-love is a good and healthy gift of God as well. So Aquinas referred to pride as "inordinate self-love", to desire an excellence for oneself beyond our true natures. At its worst it's the desire to be God, to fail to recognize the distinction between Creator and creature. Its the granddaddy of all sins because by it man becomes his own "god", his own moral authority with all that implies. And this is why the first step in man's turning from sin and becoming justified isn't obedience of the law, but turning back to God in faith which is to recognize God as God all over again. A quote somewhat related to all this that I love from a 4th century bishop/believer:

“If we turn away from evil out of fear of punishment, we are in the position of slaves. If we pursue the enticement of wages, . . . we resemble mercenaries. Finally if we obey for the sake of the good itself and out of love for him who commands . . . we are in the position of children.” St Basil of Caesarea

 

[fhansen]

We, as sinners, initially do not choose good over evil, that would be a righteous, worthy, honorable and holy action, deserving of something, and as nonbelievers we cannot “do” anything righteous or worthy,

Oh, we can get tired of the way things are, especially if we've been victims of other’s sins, which we all have been to one degree or another in this life. We also all victimize others to one degree or another as well. But in any case we can certainly at least develop a hunger and thirst for righteousness, for truth, for love in a world that often tramples all over those. The image of God was never totally snuffed out in man.

And I’m curious, if you deny that Adam’s sin affected us all, causing us to be sinners, then why would you think that fallen man can do nothing righteous? God certainly didn't create man to be a sinner.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

My question was: "How do we get this Love ourself?"

How do we Love God?

 

[bling]

My comment concerned the faith, i.e. Christianity, the purpose of which is to introduce us to God, to give us the "knowledge of God" or "knowledge of Christ" as its called in the bible, a knowledge which begins in the head and is meant to move to the heart, increasingly becoming personal knowledge.

Christianity (being Christlike while on earth) is to make disciples. Disciples are students/learner/ mentees, which does mean they gain knowledge/experience.

We're here to learn the value of God and His love over anything else, including false idols. Love opposes and overcomes/triumphs over sin. Adam, it could be said, created idolization, in general, valuing other, created things beginning with himself, it appears, over God first above all else. That's why the first few commandments as well as the greatest commandment are what they are. And, no, blaming Adam will do no good. As I stated before this is all part of a bigger plan of God's. We're left in the hands of our own counsel to see which way we'll proceed, accountable for our own actions. God didn't create evil-and didn't welcome it even though He has determined to bring an even greater good out of it at the end of the day. But He allows it as it does serve a purpose, for us to come to know-and then to shun it.

Loving God and secondly others with our whole being, is not something that can be taught, but it can grow with use. It is not that we sit back and “learn” something, but we go out into the world with the little faith and Love we do have and use it, starting out doing little stuff like washing the dishes without being asked, out of your Love for Jesus/God (doing good for the sake of doing good).

The huge problem Adam had was he idolized (loved) Eve over his love for God.

 

[bling]

Oh, we can get tired of the way things are, especially if we've been victims of other’s sins, which we all have been to one degree or another in this life. We also all victimize others to one degree or another as well. But in any case we can certainly at least develop a hunger and thirst for righteousness, for truth, for love in a world that often tramples all over those. The image of God was never totally snuffed out in man.

And I’m curious, if you deny that Adam’s sin affected us all, causing us to be sinners, then why would you think that fallen man can do nothing righteous? God certainly didn't create man to be a sinner.

Adam and Eve's sin gave all mature adults the knowledge of good and evil, so now go from one way to sin, to having a ton of ways to sin, we will all sin. It did affect us.
That is a good question: 1 Cor. 13:1 If I speak in the tongues of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing.
Without this Godly type Love your motive for doing anything will be wrong (sinful).

 

[bling]

How do we Love God?

The only way I see to initially obtain this “Love” is what Jesus taught us in Luke 7: 36-50 (he that is forgiven much Loves much), so if we humbly accept as pure undeserved charity, God’s forgiving us of the unbelievable huge debt, our sins have created, we will automatically be gifted with an unbelievable huge “Love” (Godly type Love). This means: “sin has purpose”, and is needed to help the unbeliever in accepting God’s Love in the form of being forgiven. The unbelieving sinner will also need just a little humility to humbly accept pure charity and faith to trust in a benevolent Creator to extend true forgiveness.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

The only way I see to initially obtain this “Love” is what Jesus taught us in Luke 7: 36-50 (he that is forgiven much Loves much), so if we humbly accept as pure undeserved charity, God’s forgiving us of the unbelievable huge debt, our sins have created, we will automatically be gifted with an unbelievable huge “Love” (Godly type Love). This means: “sin has purpose”, and is needed to help the unbeliever in accepting God’s Love in the form of being forgiven. The unbelieving sinner will also need just a little humility to humbly accept pure charity and faith to trust in a benevolent Creator to extend true forgiveness.

As long is we Love Him. Some just have faith or trust however this is not theAgape Love that He seeks. The foundation of faith is rooted Love.

Ephesians 3 17-19
that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; that you, being rooted and grounded in love, may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the width and length and depth and height— to know the love of Christ which passes knowledge; that you may be filled with all the fullness of God.

 

[fhansen]

Christianity (being Christlike while on earth) is to make disciples. Disciples are students/learner/ mentees, which does mean they gain knowledge/experience.

Is this is supposed to address my comment somehow? And how can this happen anyway unless they first know God???? And their purpose, after coming to know and believe in Him is first of all to love Him and neighbor. Fruit flows from there: disciplining, feeding the hungry and clothing the naked, doing good, being holy, obeying the commandments. It's our love that sways people most, just as Christ's love swayed us. That's how it works in real life especially if we're to make real disciples rather than sons of satan.

Loving God and secondly others with our whole being, is not something that can be taught, but it can grow with use.

And I didn't say otherwise. What happens in real life is that we come to understand that something is wrong with and something is missing in this world and when we're shown God's love we respond as it contrasts with the worlds offerings. Its the treasure that we give up everything else for (Matt 13). This world is the perfect school for showing us what life is like when the Master's effectively gone away. Someday you will appreciate this understanding- and how it's already affected your own desire for God. Wisdom is a great thing BTW-and God want us cultivate it.

 

[fhansen]

Adam and Eve's sin gave all mature adults the knowledge of good and evil, so now go from one way to sin, to having a ton of ways to sin, we will all sin. It did affect us.

Good answer! And one that we've discussed earlier here. Love, from man, is what was missing in Eden. Love is what must be patiently cultivated in us by God. Love is what Jesus definitively demonstrated on the cross. Love compels obedience by its nature. Love is what we can be open to now whereas man, fresh out of Eden, was not yet ready. Love of God causes us to feed from the Tree of Life, and grow even stronger in that love..

 

[bling]

As long is we Love Him. Some just have faith or trust however this is not theAgape Love that He seeks. The foundation of faith is rooted Love.

Ephesians 3 17-19
that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; that you, being rooted and grounded in love, may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the width and length and depth and height— to know the love of Christ which passes knowledge; that you may be filled with all the fullness of God.

Like all the Letters in the New Testament, Ephesians is written to committed Christians, who have some faith and Love.
What I am trying to point out is we do start with a little "faith" which everyone has been gifted, but must obtain Godly type Love by what Jesus taught in Luke 7.

 

[bling]

Is this is supposed to address my comment somehow? And how can this happen anyway unless they first know God???? And their purpose, after coming to know and believe in Him is first of all to love Him and neighbor. Fruit flows from there: disciplining, feeding the hungry and clothing the naked, doing good, being holy, obeying the commandments. It's our love that sways people most, just as Christ's love swayed us. That's how it works in real life especially if we're to make real disciples rather than sons of satan.

We might be spending way too much time trying to provide head knowledge of God, when all the nonbeliever needs, is a trust in a benevolent Creator who just might be willing to help them and a wiliness to humbly accept that help as pure undeserved charity. The nonbeliever just needs enough faith to try God as a solution to their pain, sorrow and bad future.

You are not directly refuting my understanding that Love (Godly type Love) come initially from what Jesus taught in Luke 7 and not from knowledge (knowing Him).

And I didn't say otherwise. What happens in real life is that we come to understand that something is wrong with and something is missing in this world and when we're shown God's love we respond as it contrasts with the worlds offerings. Its the treasure that we give up everything else for (Matt 13). This world is the perfect school for showing us what life is like when the Master's effectively gone away. Someday you will appreciate this understanding- and how it's already affected your own desire for God. Wisdom is a great thing BTW-and God want us cultivate it.

OK

 

[bling]

Good answer! And one that we've discussed earlier here. Love, from man, is what was missing in Eden. Love is what must be patiently cultivated in us by God. Love is what Jesus definitively demonstrated on the cross. Love compels obedience by its nature. Love is what we can be open to now whereas man, fresh out of Eden, was not yet ready. Love of God causes us to feed from the Tree of Life, and grow even stronger in that love..

After we initially obtain Godly type Love as a result of Luke 7, we can grow that Love by us going forth and using what little Love we do have, start by washing the dishes.