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. . .My position is that we aren't condemned for individual sins, but for a life that's worthless or even damaging to others.
Don't you think that section of Jesus' teaching has a certain aspect of hyperbole? He goes on to talk about amputating parts of our anatomy. I don't think for a minute that we would go to hell for calling someone "you fool." There's nothing in teaching about judgement to suggest that."But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the hell of fire."
Don't you think that section of Jesus' teaching has a certain aspect of hyperbole? He goes on to talk about amputating parts of our anatomy. I don't think for a minute that we would go to hell for calling someone "you fool." There's nothing in teaching about judgement to suggest that.
A few years ago I had a 7th grade student with Asperger's Syndrome. I was unable to convince him that the thing about cutting was intended non-literally. What's your pastor's excuse?That's a good question, and I just got into a debate with my pastor about it. My point was that Jesus wasn't giving a way to be saved when He talked about cutting off limbs.
There's nothing in teaching about judgement to suggest that." Other than the verse I quoted?
A few years ago I had a 7th grade student with Asperger's Syndrome. I was unable to convince him that the thing about cutting was intended non-literally. What's your pastor's excuse?
Yes, other than that verse.
Thanks be to God that we aren't saved or lost through our DNA! Eugenics has no place in the kingdom of God.Question:
Did God spare the children of the Canaanites from being killed along with the rest of their tribes? (Deuteronomy 7:1-6) Was he neutral toward the infants and children of the Hittites, Girgashites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites, and Jebusites?
Answer:
The children would have eternal life... anyone who had not reached a state of mental capacity to understand sin or right and wrong.
Question:
Did he instruct the Israelites to spare the children and bring them along with them into the Promised Land?
Answer:No
Question:
Do you think the children of the Canaanites were any more guilty or sinful than any other children before or since? Or any less?
Answer:No
What do you think happened to the children of the Canaanites after they were killed by the Israelites? Were they given a place in Abraham's Bosom like the children of Israel who believed the promises of God, or were they condemned with all the others of their tribes? If so, why?
Answer:Yes... due to not being accountable.
Now, let me add a twist to these situations.
There are many who have studied the times and people of the pre flood and post flood eras. From there findings and there teachings I have come to a belief in why these women and children were not spared as was typical in war times.
You can investigate this for yourself, but you probably won't.
The reason is simple but controversial because it goes into details and facts of these times that people have a hard time accepting.
This reason is.... before the flood..."all flesh was corrupted" except Noah, his wife and three sons. Noah and his family were clean and pure human DNA.
Noah picked three wives for his sons. They were NOT of pure DNA.
Without getting to technical, with the curse of Ham's son, this impure DNA rears it's ugly head again and thus we get Nimrod, the Hittites, Girgashites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites, and Jebusites.
These were remnants of the pre flood "corruption of all flesh" and God was ending each bloodline and, most importantly, did not want the Israelite's to take them as wives and corrupt the bloodline to Christ. Period.
Now, I have not looked any deeper BUT..... if these people were, in fact, Nephilim... they were not pure human DNA and may not of even had the option of salvation.
Like I said, you can research this for yourself and you will find that nephilim were hybrids had no chance for redemption. The souls of dead nephilim is where demons come from..
This would then mean that no woman or child would have had the opportunity for salvation anyway.
The only way you could possibly choose to acknowledge Christ as your Savior is if God had already granted you his gift of Faith through the ministry of the Holy Spirit. When God acts to convert an individual, it is his will that is converted. The natural man cannot comprehend the things of God because they are spiritually discerned.So, it is not a conscious choice that I made to accept Christ? It was the Holy spirit controlling me?
You seem to put a lot of "faith" in salvation based on the application of water.Law again. God has graciously ordained that his promises of forgiveness of sins, eternal life and salvation may be given through the means of the application of water connected with the commandment and the Word of God. He has charged his Church with being his body on earth to preach his Gospel and administer his Sacraments. Jesus told his disciples, the beginning of his Church, “The one who hears you hears me, and the one who rejects you rejects me, and the one who rejects me rejects him who sent me.” And also, "If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you withhold forgiveness from any, it is withheld."
Well, if you are referring to permitting them to hear the Gospel as "ritual" then sadly, yes, as far as we know from scripture. Of course, God may save whom he will.
According to scripture, we can have full assurance of such a child's salvation when they are baptized in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.
According to scripture, we can have full assurance of such a child's salvation when they are baptized in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.
If you were to research this, you would understand.Thanks be to God that we aren't saved or lost through our DNA! Eugenics has no place in the kingdom of God.
Thanks! But remember, baptism is not just plain water, but it is the water included in God’s command and combined with God’s word.You seem to put a lot of "faith" in salvation based on the application of water.
Law again? God has promised salvation to all his children who are baptized. Outside of baptism we simply have no such clear and certain promise in which we can trust.Are you saying that any infant, if they die even at the age of one year, who has not been baptized, does not have salvation?
Well, first of all, people with cerebral palsy are normally intellectually astute. Their limitations are physical, not mental.What happens if an infant, or autistic child, or cerebral palsy adult or any mentally handicapped person of any age who cannot even talk or clean themselves physically, never gets baptized in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit and dies.
You're right. I have more pressing matters to attend. Like arguing with people on the internet.If you were to research this, you would understand.
I don't, however, see you ever researching this.
Ok.............Thanks! But remember, baptism is not just plain water, but it is the water included in God’s command and combined with God’s word.
It's the word of God in and with the water does such wonderful things, along with the faith which trusts this word of God in the water. For without God’s word the water is plain water and no Baptism. But with the word of God it is a Baptism, that is, a life-giving water, rich in grace, and a washing of the new birth in the Holy Spirit.
Law again? God has promised salvation to all his children who are baptized. Outside of baptism we simply have no such clear and certain promise in which we can trust.
Well, first of all, people with cerebral palsy are normally intellectually astute. Their limitations are physical, not mental.
Otherwise, the fate of those like you mentioned is the same as anyone else. If they have been graciously given the gift of faith in Jesus Christ they have also been granted forgiveness of sin and eternal life. Baptism is not the only means God uses to save sinners, but baptism is indeed one way through which God acts to save us.
Whether concupiscence is sin for which God holds us accountable was one of the major debates between the Roman Catholic church and the Reformers during the Reformation. The Catholics held that there is a distinction between sins, that concupiscence was not a damnable sin, and that baptism only was effective in removing original sin and not for actual sin. The Reformers held that there is no distinction between sins, that both concupiscence and actual sins are mortal sins for which Christ died, and that through baptism God acts to forgive all sins both actual and otherwise.
I agree.If original sin was removed at infant baptism then kids wouldn't sin. I can't imagine still trying to hold onto such logic. Original sin is the causation of actual sin. SMH.
I've tried to be as explicit as possible. I'm sorry we're not understanding each other very well. I'll try to be more clear.Ok.............
Enough with the vague statements.
Do you subscribe to the Reformation solas? That we are saved by grace alone, through faith alone in Christ alone? If so, then you know that saving faith in Jesus Christ is not something that we produce from within ourselves, it is a gift that God graciously gives us (Ephesians 2). So the "if" in my statement was meant to indicate that some have been given the gift of faith and some haven't. If you are a believer, you can rest assured that you have been given faith. If you are an unbeliever, you either have not been given the gift of faith or you have rejected the gift once given.What in the world is:
1/ "If they have been graciously given the gift of faith in Jesus Christ"?
What is this "IF"? Do we not have assurance? Do we not have a certainty? Do we stumble along with doubt?
2/ "baptism is not just plain water,"?
I wonder if you carefully read what I cited earlier.What is this "special" water? I was baptized in a tank of water from our city water supply. Am I covered?
3/ "Outside of baptism we simply have no such clear and certain promise in which we can trust."
Is it still by works if God is the one working? You are still understanding baptism as law when it is perfectly clear from scripture that baptism is visible gospel, God acting to save sinners. How can it take away from the work of Christ when it is through his word with the water in baptism that God gives to the individual all the benefits of Christ's works and merits done on our behalf for our salvation?Outside of baptism... now......that sounds like law and works.... baptism doing the saving. Does that not take away from the work of Christ? Is it not "belief" in the Lord Jesus Christ? Now it is baptism that saves? Ya.......that is works and law.
4/ "Otherwise, the fate of those like you mentioned is the same as anyone else
Yes, perhaps I was unclear. Those not baptized are either saved or not depending on whether or not God has granted them faith in Jesus Christ through his word by some other means than baptism.."
"Otherwise" meaning "not baptized", ..... right?
What is the fate of those?
I wonder if you're playing with me. That's quite a twist on what I actually meant. There is no special water. There is only good old dihydrogen monoxide, but when it is combined with the living, powerful, efficacious, performative word of God it can do miraculous things.From what I can see and read, you have heavy reliance on baptism. Not just any baptism but with some special water and words of God.
There is no reason to separate faith and baptism. In the scriptural view of baptism God is acting to justify, and how would he justify other than through faith in Christ?The bible teaches a much different view..... It is faith. Faith that Christ was the messiah. Faith that His death, burial and resurrection were sufficient for my salvation. Faith that I cannot do anything, of my own accord or actions to bring my salvation. Faith that admitting my guilt and asking forgiveness will save me.
Well, that's a false statement. I have been pointing out whenever you have been using a law-based view of baptism in an attempt to catch me saying that baptism is required for salvation. That's not what I'm saying (for the record). God saves whom he will, through baptism or through some other means of proclaiming his word. The power is in the word. The word of the Gospel is the power of God for salvation.You're pointing fingers at others for their relying on "law" when your whole concept is based on legalistic baptism.
Please, please show me where this is found in scripture. It must be there somewhere because so many people believe it to be true despite scriptural passages to the contrary. I've never found it, though, try as I might, and no one has ever be able to show it to me.Baptism is the obedience of those who are already saved, to profess their commitment to faith in Christ.
True. It's not that original sin is removed in Holy Baptism, but that it is forgiven. We constantly sin, in commission and omission, in thought, word and deed, and yet each and every trespass is covered by the blood of Christ. That doesn't mean we will no longer sin.If original sin was removed at infant baptism then kids wouldn't sin. I can't imagine still trying to hold onto such logic. Original sin is the causation of actual sin. SMH.
Again, how more secure can someone be than in relying totally on the sure and certain promises of God?I agree.
Baptism of an infant is false security.
True. But this is also true of any Christian, regardless of how they were first brought into the family of God. Baptism isn't a magic charm. It only is effective if the faith in Christ given in baptism persists.That child could grow up to be an amazing child for God.
It could also grow up to be a flaming atheist and denounce Christ from the mountain top.
All this chatter is pointless.I've tried to be as explicit as possible. I'm sorry we're not understanding each other very well. I'll try to be more clear.
Do you subscribe to the Reformation solas? That we are saved by grace alone, through faith alone in Christ alone? If so, then you know that saving faith in Jesus Christ is not something that we produce from within ourselves, it is a gift that God graciously gives us (Ephesians 2). So the "if" in my statement was meant to indicate that some have been given the gift of faith and some haven't. If you are a believer, you can rest assured that you have been given faith. If you are an unbeliever, you either have not been given the gift of faith or you have rejected the gift once given.
So in Christ God is reconciling us to himself. We can completely depend on what Christ alone has done for us and for our salvation apart from any supposed merit or worthiness on our part. Believe it!
I wonder if you carefully read what I cited earlier.
Baptism is not about the water, although water is involved. Baptism is about the word of God that is in and with the water. The water does nothing but convey the word and serve as a physical sign to which God has attached his promise. I hope you believe that God's word is living and active, that it accomplishes the purpose for which he sends it? If so, you will readily see that the same word of God that called the universe into existence, that raised people from the dead, is also the same word that now calls each new believer into new life in Christ. When God speaks, things happen - real things, spiritual things, things that have eternal power. We can trust God's word completely to accomplish what it says. God has given us his promises, and God never breaks his word.
I would be glad to give you at least five scripture passages that clearly show what God accomplishes in us through Holy Baptism if you are unfamiliar with them.
Is it still by works if God is the one working? You are still understanding baptism as law when it is perfectly clear from scripture that baptism is visible gospel, God acting to save sinners. How can it take away from the work of Christ when it is through his word with the water in baptism that God gives to the individual all the benefits of Christ's works and merits done on our behalf for our salvation?
Yes, perhaps I was unclear. Those not baptized are either saved or not depending on whether or not God has granted them faith in Jesus Christ through his word by some other means than baptism.
I wonder if you're playing with me. That's quite a twist on what I actually meant. There is no special water. There is only good old dihydrogen monoxide, but when it is combined with the living, powerful, efficacious, performative word of God it can do miraculous things.
There is no reason to separate faith and baptism. In the scriptural view of baptism God is acting to justify, and how would he justify other than through faith in Christ?
Some will question whether or not an infant is capable of having faith in Christ. Faith does not necessarily mean a conscious, intentional act of the will. Faith is simply trust, and infants can easily be shown to trust their mother or their father, even to the exclusion of other people. The faith of an infant is a faith appropriate to their awareness and ability. John the Baptizer is shown in scripture to have reacted in faith to the presence of Our Lord in utero, even before he was born.
But it is not the faithful actions from us that determines whether or not we possess saving faith. The gift depends on the giver, not on the one receiving the gift. If God is giving his gifts, he may certainly give them to whomever he pleases.
Well, that's a false statement. I have been pointing out whenever you have been using a law-based view of baptism in an attempt to catch me saying that baptism is required for salvation. That's not what I'm saying (for the record). God saves whom he will, through baptism or through some other means of proclaiming his word. The power is in the word. The word of the Gospel is the power of God for salvation.
Please, please show me where this is found in scripture. It must be there somewhere because so many people believe it to be true despite scriptural passages to the contrary. I've never found it, though, try as I might, and no one has ever be able to show it to me.
Seriously. Please show me the scripture that this law-based view of baptism is based on.
I'll just let St Paul answer this one. Here Paul, you can use my keyboard right here."It's not that original sin is removed in Holy Baptism, but that it is forgiven"
Are you suggesting we need to be forgiven for the sins that Adam committed?
We are born with a sinful nature, due to Adams sin."It's not that original sin is removed in Holy Baptism, but that it is forgiven"
Are you suggesting we need to be forgiven for the sins that Adam committed?
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