What is the "abomination of desolation"?

[Dave-W]

but the anti-christ spoken of in daniel and revelation is the papacy system.

So far that system has NOT denied the deity of our Lord, nor that HE came in the flesh.

 

[steve hartman]

Impressive list. (but standard fare)

You left one out: Denies that Christ came in the flesh:

1 John 2:22
Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son.

1 John 4:3
and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world.

I never denied that their were many anti-christ's as you can see by the fruits of people I am just clarifying that the anti-christ spoken of in daniel and revelation is the papacy always has been and always will be and that can not be denied or proven to be anyone other than the papacy.

 

[Dave-W]

I am just clarifying that the anti-christ spoken of in daniel and revelation is the papacy always has been and always will be and that can not be denied or proven to be anyone other than the papacy.

ONLY if you can prove that the pope has denied either the Divinity of Christ, or that He did NOT come in the flesh.

Those points are absolute MUSTS.

 

[steve hartman]

So far that system has NOT denied the deity of our Lord, nor that HE came in the flesh.

491. "Through the centuries the Church has become ever more aware that Mary, 'full of grace' through God,[Lk 1:28 .] was redeemed from the moment of her conception. That is what the dogma of the Immaculate Conception confesses, as Pope Pius IX proclaimed in 1854: The most Blessed Virgin Mary was, from the first moment of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege of almighty God and by virtue of the merits of JESUS Christ, Saviour of the human race, preserved immune from all stain of ORIGINAL SIN.[Pius IX, Ineffabilis Deus (1854): DS 2803

You can also verify this in the online version of the Catechism book at the Vatican website in the "Original Sin" section. Direct link = http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/p1s2c1p7.htm#III

Besides the fact they lie about Mary and her state of salvation, to declare that Jesus Christ came to this world in a flesh OTHER THAN the flesh the catholic church teaches we bear, is to preach that Jesus did NOT come in the flesh! They say He came in a flesh "not stained" with the stain we supposedly bear! To say Jesus did NOT have in His flesh what "we" have in ours, is to say He did NOT come in our flesh. Therefore, He can not possibly be the same Jesus John spoke of in 1John 4:3 The Roman Catholic Jesus is NOT the Jesus of the Bible. The Jesus of Rome cheated and prevented His flesh from being stained with what Rome calls "original sin." But what is the definition of original sin according to Rome?

 

[Dave-W]

Besides the fact they lie about Mary and her state of salvation, to declare that Jesus Christ came to this world in a flesh OTHER THAN the flesh the catholic church teaches we bear, is to preach that Jesus did NOT come in the flesh! They say He came in a flesh "not stained" with the stain we supposedly bear! To say Jesus did NOT have in His flesh what "we" have in ours, is to say He did NOT come in our flesh. Therefore, He can not possibly be the same Jesus John spoke of in 1John 4:3

That is a very far stretch. IMO.

The Roman Catholic Jesus is NOT the Jesus of the Bible.

Neither is the blonde haired blue eyed effeminate pictured in most protestant churches.

He was a JEW. Dark skinned, curly haired. bushy beard. Totally observant with the Law of Moses. Never taught AGAINST any point of the Law of Moses.

IOW - the most observant Orthodox Jew that ever lived.

 

[steve hartman]

That is a very far stretch. IMO.

Neither is the blonde haired blue eyed effeminate pictured in most protestant churches.

He was a JEW. Dark skinned, curly haired. bushy beard. Totally observant with the Law of Moses. Never taught AGAINST any point of the Law of Moses.

IOW - the most observant Orthodox Jew that ever lived.

I do not believe he was white like they portray him either I believe he was middle eastern looking that may be a far stretch but you can not deny twice now pope francis has said Jesus failed so how can they claim he is divine but yet fail?

 

[reddogs]

This is study forum is for new Adventist members, so please refrain from posting here if you are a non-member.

 

[steve hartman]

This is study forum is for new Adventist members, so please refrain from posting here if you are a non-member.

how are we supposed to reach other denominations then or show them truth?

 

[reddogs]

Infinite forums for that my friend.....

 

[david p]

How can I say this..
Daniel 9:20-23
"And whiles I was speaking, and praying, and confessing my sin and the sin of my people Israel, and presenting my supplication before the LORD my God for the holy mountain of my God; Yea, whiles I was speaking in prayer, even the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, touched me about the time of the evening oblation. And he informed me, and talked with me, and said, O Daniel, I am now come forth to give thee skill and understanding. At the beginning of thy supplications the commandment came forth, and I am come to shew thee; for thou art greatly beloved: therefore understand the matter, and consider the vision."

Okay. Not too many, in fact, not even a few non Mosaic Law keepers really care about the commandments of God and of The LORD. Not really even in those places they confess to be Law keepers

But seeing how The LORD and God Are not man, it's more obvious to place trust that They would not violate Their Own Law(s) while humans, and these possibly having evolved from being homo erectus to homo sapiens, etc .. are too diverse to have any sort of agreement on Law matters. But for Holy, They are not homo erectus nor homo sapiens..

This being said, these statements being told to Daniel related to The Law of The LORD and of God ..


So even during these BC years while these were in captivity, still, schemers and deceivers lived. And they schemed and deceived even to the point not being afraid of Holiness, even as it is today.

The transgressions, iniquity, lawlessness spoken of is just that. How Holy deals with 'sin', even in (J)udea, even pertaining to (J)ews is what this is about. Not how Non (J)ews are going to be held accountable for what those in (J)udea did, does ..


Matthew 23:27 'O (J)erusalem, (J)erusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!'


I mean, if you want to talk about (J)ews, how many wealthy businessmen are at least part, from, a (J)ewish background?

Facebook, etc...


List of Jewish American businesspeople - Wikipedia

Have these abdicated from being accountable?


Trivia: did you have knowledge that before they were known as (J)ews that they were known as Iewes? Even phonetically?

But strangely, although all the names beginning with the letter I in the very first King Iames Bible, not King James Version,
were changed to have the letter J replace the letter I...

Ierusalem... Jerusalem
Iesus... Jesus
Iakob... Jacob
Iethro... Jethro
Ieremiah... Jeremiah
King Iames... King James
etc ..

Isaac didn't become Jisaac?

Iudea...Judea
Iudah...Judah

etc.. etc .

Ieroboam... Jeroboam
..


What does this mean?
That a non Gentile male who was crucified under Roman Law had His Name changed into a Gentile one.

According to this, God's Only Begotten Huios is of a Gentile lineage.

So interestingly, why would God need to send His Huios to any people when Law about the cleansing and atoning for sin was already understood?

Okay.

Which class of persons do you think would be more affected?

The upper class, the lower class or the upper upper class?


Now you have to remember that if God is attempting to reach into the lower class to be able to rescue some from oppression that if He meets opposition from the upper classes, He might not be too pleased.



What sort of 'sin' was being committed back in the days of Daniel and Ieremiah that The Messiah is Ordained to arrive after a certain number of 'weeks' from/pertaining with/to the time of the visitation to Daniel?


In other words, is being self accountable to sin more or less important than attempting to figure who or what the anti- Holy could/might be? Especially if NOT of The Mosaic Law.


Mark 3:4 "And he saith unto them, Is it lawful to do good on the sabbath days, or to do evil? to save life, or to kill? But they held their peace."


Who are 'they'? Besides formal titles where did 'they' enter in from while most of the land of Y'srael was desolate and empty because most of the citizens were taken captive during the times of Dan(I)el and Ieremiah?


But what if...

What if the families of Ur of the Chaldees were the ones to have entered in?

Which families might have remained in Ur when Abram, his father and other of their relatives left Ur?

Genesis 11:31
"31And Terah took Abram his son, and Lot the son of Haran his son's son, and Sarai his daughter in law, his son Abram's wife; and they went forth with them from Ur of the Chaldees, to go into the land of Canaan; and they came unto Haran, and dwelt there."


When did Abram leave his father?

Genesis 12:1-4
"Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:

And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:

And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

So Abram departed, as the LORD had spoken unto him; and Lot went with him: and Abram was seventy and five years old when he departed out of Haran."


Did the biological father of Abram 'fall asleep in The Lord' in Haran, a place he moved into from another place, before Abram departed out from Haran?


So.. The LORD had said...
and
The LORD said...


Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:
- Genesis 12:1

Professors? What does this mean, please?

Had said, did say, said, spoke, has spoken.... etc, etc....

But how could God ask Abram to abandon his biological parernal family and seek fun and life with strangers?


Wow..the time, effort, monies spent on making an educational video to upload. Amazing!


Genesis 12:4 "'..and Abram was seventy and five years old when he departed out of Haran.'

Making his biological father, smarter than a 4th grader?




Another Sabbath
Schhol
Opportunity ..


Class.. school is not spelt, spelled, that way.



Do you enjoy reslonsibily and talent?
Responsibly?


What are the 'under ground' churches in other Countries responsible to keep?


1 Corinthians 1:2
'Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ (J)esus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of (J)esus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:' .......


Wait a minute!
A Gentile Lord?
Say what??

I'm not a racist. I prefer to honor rightly...
right?

After all, we could have been evolved from homo erectus .. you see?


And being Church requires understanding that those others not as fortunate are attempting the same. To live, to prefer, to honor ..

But again the question

Do we prefer one another as believers or as novelties?
How precedented is your truth?

Did my great grandparents believe in creation or technology?

One cannot study distances without Rulers.. even towards stars and galaxies.

1 million miles .. etc ....


Question:
Without an odometer in a vehicle with rotating wheels with distance per rotation, how is distance measured?

Theoretic physics?

Was the theory explainable as empirical evidence?

How can one explain one million empirically evidenced miles? The who, what, when, how necessities?

To understand the extreme difficulty of empirically explaining how one million miles is measured is not the same as to explain how one million miles could be imagined/fathomed.

Without empirical half life understanding empirically one cannot explain how machine can determine what humans try to understand. A human cannot program a machine to do calculations humans do not know how to form.

Mullions of years cannot be determined by the amount of days it takes for a raw potato to rot under observation

But...
With the life and dying of the first man, Adam...
how is evidence supportive or proliferating?


Are you sure and certain that Creation was created and made before the living soul Adam?

 

[david p]

Could it be:

The Maccabees (/ˈmækəbiːz/), also spelled Machabees (Hebrew: מַכַּבִּים, Makkabbīm or מַקַבִּים, Maqabbīm; Latin: Machabaei or Maccabaei; Ancient Greek: Μακκαβαῖοι, Makkabaioi), were a group of Jewish rebel warriors who took control of Judea, which at the time was part of the Seleucid Empire.[1][2] Its leaders, the Hasmoneans, founded the Hasmonean dynasty, which ruled from 167 BCE (after the Maccabean Revolt) to 37 BCE,[3] being a fully independent kingdom from 104 to 63 BCE. They reasserted the Jewish religion, expanded the boundaries of Judea by conquest, and reduced the influence of Hellenism and Hellenistic Judaism.

Maccabees - Wikipedia


Proverbs 12:22 "Lying lips are abomination to the LORD: but they that deal truly are his delight."


The 'abomination' which causes desolation....
hmm...

Daniel 9:27 "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."

.... he shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering and on the wing of abominations desolate....


Proverbs 12:22 "Lying lips are abomination to the LORD: but they that deal truly are his delight."




on:
al: on, upon, over, against, concerning, because of, by, beside
Original Word: עַל
Part of Speech: Preposition
Transliteration: `al
Pronunciation: ahl
Phonetic Spelling: (al)
KJV: above, according to(-ly), after, (as) against, among, and, X as, at, because of, beside (the rest of), between, beyond the time, X both and, by (reason of), X had the charge of, concerning for, in (that), (forth, out) of, (from) (off), (up-)on, over, than, through(-out), to, touching, X with
NASB: over, against, concerning, because, beside, above, according
Word Origin: [(properly) the same as H5920 (עַל - high) used as a preposition (in the singular or plural often with prefix, or as conjunction with a particle following)]

1. above, over, upon, or against (yet always in this last relation with a downward aspect) in a great variety of applications (as follow)

overspreading:
kanaph: wings, wing, edge
Original Word: כָּנָף
Part of Speech: Noun Feminine
Transliteration: kanaph
Pronunciation: kah-NAHF
Phonetic Spelling: (kaw-nawf')
KJV: + bird, border, corner, end, feather(-ed), X flying, + (one an-)other, overspreading, X quarters, skirt, X sort, uttermost part, wing((-ed))
NASB: wings, wing, edge, winged, corners, ends, kind
Word Origin: [from H3670 (כָּנַף - hide)]

1. an edge or extremity
2. specifically (of a bird or army) a wing, (of a garment or bed-clothing) a flap, (of the earth) a quarter, (of a building) a pinnacle


abomination:
shiqquts: Abomination, detestable thing
Original Word: שִׁקּוּץ
Part of Speech: Noun Masculine
Transliteration: shiqquwts
Pronunciation: shik-KOOTS
Phonetic Spelling: (shik-koots')
KJV: abominable filth (idol, -ation), detestable (thing)
NASB: detestable things, abominations, abomination, detestable idol, detestable idols, abominable idols, detestable
Word Origin: [from H8262 (שָׁקַץ - detest)]

1. disgusting, i.e. filthy
2. (especially) idolatrous
3. (concretely) an idol

abominable filth idol detestable thing
Or shiqquts {shik-koots'}; from shaqats; disgusting, i.e. Filthy; especially idolatrous or (concretely) an idol -- abominable filth (idol, -ation), detestable (thing).


desolate:
shamem: To be desolate, to be appalled, to be astonished, to be devastated
Original Word: שָׁמֵם
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: shamem
Pronunciation: shah-MEM
Phonetic Spelling: (shaw-mame')
KJV: make amazed, be astonished, (be an) astonish(-ment), (be, bring into, unto, lay, lie, make) desolate(-ion, places), be destitute, destroy (self), (lay, lie, make) waste, wonder
NASB: desolate, appalled, astonished, desolation, desolated, laid waste, desolations
Word Origin: [a primitive root]

1. to stun (or intransitively, grow numb), i.e. devastate or (figuratively) stupefy (both usually in a passive sense)



.... he shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering
on the wing
of abominations
desolate....


overspreading:
kanaph: wings, wing, edge
Original Word: כָּנָף
Part of Speech: Noun Feminine
Transliteration: kanaph
Pronunciation: kah-NAHF
Phonetic Spelling: (kaw-nawf')
KJV: + bird, border, corner, end, feather


Ezekiel 8:17 "Then he said unto me, Hast thou seen this, O son of man? Is it a light thing to the house of (J)udah that they commit the abominations which they commit here? for they have filled the land with violence, and have returned to provoke me to anger: and, lo, they put the branch to their nose."


(J)udah was also a common name rather than a only one, singular name.

Sarai
Diynah
Ribkaw - Rebekah

etc ..


Learning that one of your very 'good' friends lied to you can be 'desolating'..


Proverbs 12:22 "Lying lips are abomination to the LORD: but they that deal truly are his delight."


(J)ohn 3:5 '(J)esus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.'


If any person were to tell another that this is an opinion verse as to what born of water and of the Spirit means, what would you say/think?


born:
gennaó: To beget, to give birth, to bring forth, to produce.
Original Word: γεννάω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: gennaó
Pronunciation: ghen-nah'-o
Phonetic Spelling: (ghen-nah'-o)
KJV: bear, beget, be born, bring forth, conceive, be delivered of, gender, make, spring
NASB: born, father, became the father of, begotten, bear, bearing children, became father
Word Origin: [from a variation of G1085 (γένος - kind)]

1. (properly, of the father) to procreate
2. (by extension, of the mother) to conceive
3. (figuratively) to regenerate


but how can one be begotten by 'water'?




Genesis 1:2 "And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters."


Do all 'believers' believe in this?

Should all believers 'believe' in this? Is this a required belief in order to be within The household of faith? etc....