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What is Sin?

juvenissun

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I think it is futile to continue a muddled discussion.

Patient, analysis is always messy.

In fact, example is the best thing to understand some difficult concepts.

For example, you asked what is sin? And I suggested that the so-called "lie" may not be a sin. Is this the type of discussion you want to see?
 
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juvenissun

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Because it is not Truth, according to the dictionary, is “conformity to fact or actuality; a statement proven to be or accepted as true.”


A half truth is a whole lie. This is true because
If the intent in revealing a half-truth is to deceive, then the heart-issue is deception. If you look at Matthew 5, Jesus teaches that it is the thoughts and the will of someone that determines their heart. Jesus called pharisees, who "appeared" holy to others, whitewashed tombs. They appeared good to others, but inside they were rotten. a white lie is the Pharisees of lies. it is worse than an out and out lie. Because it is masquerading as something pure (The Truth.)

Just because something is not evil does not mean it is not a sin.

Remember that the Bible teaches that we have ALL sinned (regardless of what it is), and need God's grace and forgiveness through Jesus.

this means righteousness is not obtained by living a sin free life.

Truth, according to the dictionary, is “conformity to fact or actuality; a statement proven to be true.”

A lie is not the truth.


It is a common practice, in particular, among politicians, that one can avoid a strait forward answer to a question but is not lying. In fact, there are many ways to answer a question without telling the whole truth. However, they are not flat lies either. For example, the two spies hided in a (large) pile of hays. Does Rahab really know exactly where they are?

And there are many types of deception in a strategic sense (e.g. in military operation, or in business), I don't think we should say they sinned by staging the deception.

So, how do we tell that a so-called "lie" is a sinful lie in the eyes of God (admittedly, most of them are. But not all of them are)?

Of course, we can not examine every one of ours acts in such a tedious way. So, there must be another simple way which can tell us if an action or a thought is sinful. The one you said: "expressed will of God" could be as murky as any other one.
 
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drich0150

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It is a common practice, in particular, among politicians, that one can avoid a strait forward answer to a question but is not lying. In fact, there are many ways to answer a question without telling the whole truth. However, they are not flat lies either. For example, the two spies hided in a (large) pile of hays. Does Rahab really know exactly where they are?

And there are many types of deception in a strategic sense (e.g. in military operation, or in business), I don't think we should say they sinned by staging the deception.
This explanation even escapes the boundaries of how the world defines a lie or an untruth. Not to mention how clearly the bible defines a lie or even the intent of lying as I pointed out in Mt 5.

So, how do we tell that a so-called "lie" is a sinful lie in the eyes of God (admittedly, most of them are. But not all of them are)?
How have you "muddled" the definition of a lie? A lie is a verbal deception. at the Heart of which (the sin) Being deception itself. When is a deception not a sin? If you believe to be in God's expressed Will then please give us book chapter and verse so that we may explore this revelation together.

Of course, we can not examine every one of ours acts in such a tedious way. So, there must be another simple way which can tell us if an action or a thought is sinful.
Yes there is one can stop deluding himself into thinking he can ever be righteous and holy, and simply accept the atonement offered. We can not obtain righteousness by scrutinizing our actions or trying to live out the expressed will of God. This is not possible.

The one you said: "expressed will of God" could be as murky as any other one.
Not sure what this means.
 
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juvenissun

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This explanation even escapes the boundaries of how the world defines a lie or an untruth. Not to mention how clearly the bible defines a lie or even the intent of lying as I pointed out in Mt 5.

How have you "muddled" the definition of a lie? A lie is a verbal deception. at the Heart of which (the sin) Being deception itself. When is a deception not a sin? If you believe to be in God's expressed Will then please give us book chapter and verse so that we may explore this revelation together.


Yes there is one can stop deluding himself into thinking he can ever be righteous and holy, and simply accept the atonement offered. We can not obtain righteousness by scrutinizing our actions or trying to live out the expressed will of God. This is not possible.

In fact, I agree with most part of what you said. But some sins are very subtle and those are what I am arguing about.

A good example of deception is what satan said to Eve. Satan said the truth, but he is trying to deceive and to ruin the best creation of God. However, has satan sinned in this case? I don't think so. He did not disobey. Otherwise, there would not be the story of Job.

A verbal deception without a direct and a complete conflict with the truth should not be counted as a lie. In particular, if we use this strategy in doing God's work. Lying is a sin. But deceiving may not be a sin.
 
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drich0150

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A good example of deception is what Satan said to Eve. Satan said the truth, but he is trying to deceive and to ruin the best creation of God.
Keep the underlined portion in mind, but also realize the bold print is the definition or the heart of what a lie is. (a deception) It is to this heart according to Mt 5 that is at the core of all sin. Sin is not just measured by your actions, but by the true intentions of your heart. Again At the heart of a lie is deception. Wanting to deceive and deceiving is like lusting after a woman not your wife and fornicating with a woman not your wife, or hating a man and murdering a man. It is to the intent that our actions are judged. Or so says Christ in Mt.5

However, has Satan sinned in this case? I don't think so.

Then reread what was underlined again.

He did not disobey.
That's why the definition of sin is not limited to disobedience. Sin is ANYTHING not in the Expressed Will of God. God Expressly told Adam and Eve not to eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge. As you have pointed out Satan in an effort to try and deceive took the whole truth and misrepresented in such a way to deceive eve from being in the expressed will of God, to being outside of the expressed will of God.

It is a sin because God's Will is not being met.

Otherwise, there would not be the story of Job.
What happened to Job was indeed in God's will. For Satan had to get authorization from God to proceed with his torments.

A verbal deception without a direct and a complete conflict with the truth should not be counted as a lie.
But it is. I can give scripture if you want.

In particular, if we use this strategy in doing God's work. Lying is a sin. But deceiving may not be a sin
Can you do the same here? (Give scripture to support this new doctrine?)
 
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juvenissun

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Keep the underlined portion in mind, but also realize the bold print is the definition or the heart of what a lie is. (a deception) It is to this heart according to Mt 5 that is at the core of all sin. Sin is not just measured by your actions, but by the true intentions of your heart. Again At the heart of a lie is deception. Wanting to deceive and deceiving is like lusting after a woman not your wife and fornicating with a woman not your wife, or hating a man and murdering a man. It is to the intent that our actions are judged. Or so says Christ in Mt.5



Then reread what was underlined again.


That's why the definition of sin is not limited to disobedience. Sin is ANYTHING not in the Expressed Will of God. God Expressly told Adam and Eve not to eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge. As you have pointed out Satan in an effort to try and deceive took the whole truth and misrepresented in such a way to deceive eve from being in the expressed will of God, to being outside of the expressed will of God.

It is a sin because God's Will is not being met.


What happened to Job was indeed in God's will. For Satan had to get authorization from God to proceed with his torments.

But it is. I can give scripture if you want.


Can you do the same here? (Give scripture to support this new doctrine?)

It seems I am fighting an uphill battle. So, my assignment is to find a deception in the Scripture which is acceptable (even blessed) to God. In fact, Rahab is the example in my mind. But I guess I need to find a more explicit one.

How about Jacob? Is he another father of deception (before he changed)? Is he blessed anyway?

(I know my argument is not good enough. But I like to see how would you respond.)
 
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chris4243

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It seems I am fighting an uphill battle. So, my assignment is to find a deception in the Scripture which is acceptable (even blessed) to God. In fact, Rahab is the example in my mind. But I guess I need to find a more explicit one.

How about Jacob? Is he another father of deception (before he changed)? Is he blessed anyway?

(I know my argument is not good enough. But I like to see how would you respond.)

Also the one where God ordered outright lying to be done on His behalf, at least twice. Once to tell a king he would get better, once to trick a king into engaging in battle.
 
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drich0150

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It seems I am fighting an uphill battle. So, my assignment is to find a deception in the Scripture which is acceptable (even blessed) to God. In fact, Rahab is the example in my mind. But I guess I need to find a more explicit one.

How about Jacob? Is he another father of deception (before he changed)? Is he blessed anyway?

(I know my argument is not good enough. But I like to see how would you respond.)

You have my response.(Over and over) In that righteousness is not contingent on our ability to up hold the Expressed will of God.

Jacob and Rahab sinned, so did Moses, Abraham, David, Solomon, and on and on and on. Yet they were still found righteous before the Lord why?

Because their righteousness was based on the condition of their heart, and not their adherence to the letter of the Law.
 
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drich0150

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Also the one where God ordered outright lying to be done on His behalf, at least twice. Once to tell a king he would get better, once to trick a king into engaging in battle.

Book, Chapter and Verse was the actual request. Not a commentary alluding to book chapter and verse.
 
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juvenissun

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Also the one where God ordered outright lying to be done on His behalf, at least twice. Once to tell a king he would get better, once to trick a king into engaging in battle.

And another one in Judges 20. That is what I was trying to say. In order to win a military campaign, deceiving is almost a must. This one seems to be encouraged by God directly. It is not a sin, it is a strategy.

This seems illustrates a common advice: we should be "sensitive" to sin. The sensitivity here can go both ways. The key is to listen to God. This is really something.
 
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drich0150

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And another one in Judges 20. That is what I was trying to say. In order to win a military campaign, deceiving is almost a must. This one seems to be encouraged by God directly. It is not a sin, it is a strategy.

This seems illustrates a common advice: we should be "sensitive" to sin. The sensitivity here can go both ways. The key is to listen to God. This is really something.

This post is ridiculous. You Quoted a book and gave a chapter but fail to mentioned a verse that supports any of what you have claimed.(In previous posts)

Look, if you want to believe this because this is how you "feel" then by all means have the courage to do so. But do not misrepresent the word of God to give you the illusion of authority.

If this act is not blaspheme against the Holy Spirit it is the paved road that leads to that sin. In that you are taking a legitimate work of the holy Spirit and twisting it to suit your own agenda.

If you wish to show me where I am mistaken then please take the time to highlight the verses in question:

Otherwise know that you telling white lies is still a sin unless you are in a OT battle.

Judges 20

The Israelites Punish the Benjamites

1 Then all Israel from Dan to Beersheba and from the land of Gilead came together as one and assembled before the LORD in Mizpah. 2 The leaders of all the people of the tribes of Israel took their places in the assembly of God’s people, four hundred thousand men armed with swords. 3 (The Benjamites heard that the Israelites had gone up to Mizpah.) Then the Israelites said, “Tell us how this awful thing happened.”

4 So the Levite, the husband of the murdered woman, said, “I and my concubine came to Gibeah in Benjamin to spend the night. 5 During the night the men of Gibeah came after me and surrounded the house, intending to kill me. They raped my concubine, and she died. 6 I took my concubine, cut her into pieces and sent one piece to each region of Israel’s inheritance, because they committed this lewd and outrageous act in Israel. 7 Now, all you Israelites, speak up and tell me what you have decided to do.”
8 All the men rose up together as one, saying, “None of us will go home. No, not one of us will return to his house. 9 But now this is what we’ll do to Gibeah: We’ll go up against it in the order decided by casting lots. 10 We’ll take ten men out of every hundred from all the tribes of Israel, and a hundred from a thousand, and a thousand from ten thousand, to get provisions for the army. Then, when the army arrives at Gibeah[a] in Benjamin, it can give them what they deserve for this outrageous act done in Israel.” 11 So all the Israelites got together and united as one against the city.
12 The tribes of Israel sent messengers throughout the tribe of Benjamin, saying, “What about this awful crime that was committed among you? 13 Now turn those wicked men of Gibeah over to us so that we may put them to death and purge the evil from Israel.”
But the Benjamites would not listen to their fellow Israelites. 14 From their towns they came together at Gibeah to fight against the Israelites. 15 At once the Benjamites mobilized twenty-six thousand swordsmen from their towns, in addition to seven hundred able young men from those living in Gibeah. 16 Among all these soldiers there were seven hundred select troops who were left-handed, each of whom could sling a stone at a hair and not miss.
17 Israel, apart from Benjamin, mustered four hundred thousand swordsmen, all of them fit for battle.
18 The Israelites went up to Bethel[b] and inquired of God. They said, “Who of us is to go up first to fight against the Benjamites?”
The LORD replied, “Judah shall go first.”
19 The next morning the Israelites got up and pitched camp near Gibeah. 20 The Israelites went out to fight the Benjamites and took up battle positions against them at Gibeah. 21 The Benjamites came out of Gibeah and cut down twenty-two thousand Israelites on the battlefield that day. 22 But the Israelites encouraged one another and again took up their positions where they had stationed themselves the first day. 23 The Israelites went up and wept before the LORD until evening, and they inquired of the LORD. They said, “Shall we go up again to fight against the Benjamites, our fellow Israelites?”
The LORD answered, “Go up against them.”
24 Then the Israelites drew near to Benjamin the second day. 25 This time, when the Benjamites came out from Gibeah to oppose them, they cut down another eighteen thousand Israelites, all of them armed with swords.
26 Then all the Israelites, the whole army, went up to Bethel, and there they sat weeping before the LORD. They fasted that day until evening and presented burnt offerings and fellowship offerings to the LORD. 27 And the Israelites inquired of the LORD. (In those days the ark of the covenant of God was there, 28 with Phinehas son of Eleazar, the son of Aaron, ministering before it.) They asked, “Shall we go up again to fight against the Benjamites, our fellow Israelites, or not?”
The LORD responded, “Go, for tomorrow I will give them into your hands.”
29 Then Israel set an ambush around Gibeah. 30 They went up against the Benjamites on the third day and took up positions against Gibeah as they had done before. 31 The Benjamites came out to meet them and were drawn away from the city. They began to inflict casualties on the Israelites as before, so that about thirty men fell in the open field and on the roads—the one leading to Bethel and the other to Gibeah. 32 While the Benjamites were saying, “We are defeating them as before,” the Israelites were saying, “Let’s retreat and draw them away from the city to the roads.”
33 All the men of Israel moved from their places and took up positions at Baal Tamar, and the Israelite ambush charged out of its place on the west[c] of Gibeah.[d] 34 Then ten thousand of Israel’s able young men made a frontal attack on Gibeah. The fighting was so heavy that the Benjamites did not realize how near disaster was. 35 The LORD defeated Benjamin before Israel, and on that day the Israelites struck down 25,100 Benjamites, all armed with swords. 36 Then the Benjamites saw that they were beaten.
Now the men of Israel had given way before Benjamin, because they relied on the ambush they had set near Gibeah. 37 Those who had been in ambush made a sudden dash into Gibeah, spread out and put the whole city to the sword. 38 The Israelites had arranged with the ambush that they should send up a great cloud of smoke from the city, 39 and then the Israelites would counterattack.
The Benjamites had begun to inflict casualties on the Israelites (about thirty), and they said, “We are defeating them as in the first battle.” 40 But when the column of smoke began to rise from the city, the Benjamites turned and saw the whole city going up in smoke. 41 Then the Israelites counterattacked, and the Benjamites were terrified, because they realized that disaster had come on them. 42 So they fled before the Israelites in the direction of the wilderness, but they could not escape the battle. And the Israelites who came out of the towns cut them down there. 43 They surrounded the Benjamites, chased them and easily[e] overran them in the vicinity of Gibeah on the east. 44 Eighteen thousand Benjamites fell, all of them valiant fighters. 45 As they turned and fled toward the wilderness to the rock of Rimmon, the Israelites cut down five thousand men along the roads. They kept pressing after the Benjamites as far as Gidom and struck down two thousand more. 46 On that day twenty-five thousand Benjamite swordsmen fell, all of them valiant fighters. 47 But six hundred of them turned and fled into the wilderness to the rock of Rimmon, where they stayed four months. 48 The men of Israel went back to Benjamin and put all the towns to the sword, including the animals and everything else they found. All the towns they came across they set on fire.
 
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chris4243

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Book, Chapter and Verse was the actual request. Not a commentary alluding to book chapter and verse.

1 Kings 22:
20 And the LORD said, ‘Who will entice Ahab into attacking Ramoth Gilead and going to his death there?’ “One suggested this, and another that. 21 Finally, a spirit came forward, stood before the LORD and said, ‘I will entice him.’
22 “‘By what means?’ the LORD asked.
“‘I will go out and be a deceiving spirit in the mouths of all his prophets,’ he said.
“‘You will succeed in enticing him,’ said the LORD. ‘Go and do it.’



2 Kings 8:
9 Hazael went to meet Elisha, taking with him as a gift forty camel-loads of all the finest wares of Damascus. He went in and stood before him, and said, “Your son Ben-Hadad king of Aram has sent me to ask, ‘Will I recover from this illness?’”
10 Elisha answered, “Go and say to him, ‘You will certainly recover.’ Nevertheless, the LORD has revealed to me that he will in fact die.”

As I said, two cases of lying on behalf of the LORD. The first case is also clearly a case of the LORD commanding the deception.
 
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drich0150

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1 Kings 22:
20 And the LORD said, ‘Who will entice Ahab into attacking Ramoth Gilead and going to his death there?’ “One suggested this, and another that. 21 Finally, a spirit came forward, stood before the LORD and said, ‘I will entice him.’
22 “‘By what means?’ the LORD asked.
“‘I will go out and be a deceiving spirit in the mouths of all his prophets,’ he said.
“‘You will succeed in enticing him,’ said the LORD. ‘Go and do it



2 Kings 8:
9 Hazael went to meet Elisha, taking with him as a gift forty camel-loads of all the finest wares of Damascus. He went in and stood before him, and said, “Your son Ben-Hadad king of Aram has sent me to ask, ‘Will I recover from this illness?’”
10 Elisha answered, “Go and say to him, ‘You will certainly recover.’ Nevertheless, the LORD has revealed to me that he will in fact die.”

As I said, two cases of lying on behalf of the LORD. The first case is also clearly a case of the LORD commanding the deception.

Maybe you misunderstood the point of the assignment. I am looking for book Chapter and verse that clearly points out or would lead one to a relevant doctrine that permits white lies, Lying in general or deception of any kind as a means to righteousness. (Because whether you are aware or not this was what was being discussed)

In Neither of these two instances were lying was recorded, do they point to righteousness gained by these acts, nor do either examples point to the paradigm shift that is needed to incorporate deception into Christian Doctrine.. At best you can establish one has permission to lie when commanded by God or a prophet of God in the OT. Just like one has permission to kill when commanded by God or a prophet of God in the OT.. Unless you are saying you have a direct command to lie or deceive then your lies are still counted as sin.

I am sorry if you have waisted your time, but if I wanted just an example of lying I could have looked to Peter's denial of Christ. there are three examples of it in one story, but this account in the bible like the accounts you gave establish the point the other guy was trying to make..
In the future when I ask for book chapter and verse I mean for it to contextually support the message that your are supporting or representing. I do not mean it as a dare to find an example of it.
 
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chris4243

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So is lying a sin only when someone who is not God does it or commands it? Does God command to sin? As you say, God commands to kill in some cases, but also never forbids killing. Of the 10 Commandments, 16 “You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor." is not saying do not lie, and 13 “You shall not murder." is not saying do not kill.
 
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drich0150

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So is lying a sin only when someone who is not God does it or commands it?
Lying is a sin no matter what. God does not command a lie, however he has given the authority to deceive. (Kinda like the distinction you wanted to make between killing and murder.)

Does God command to sin?
Apparently we have two Old testament examples where God did so, or do we?

As you say, God commands to kill in some cases, but also never forbids killing.
For some there is no difference, and for them killing in certain circumstances is always murder. Even so, their have been examples of God giving an order to kill were many would only see murder. (Women and Children) Here like in the case of lying if one simply judges the act, and not the purpose or intent or weighs in the Will of God they will only see sin. So for the legalist who's concern is their own strict interpretation of the law, they can only see sin. But for the one who sees sin as anything not in the Expressed Will of God then no sin takes place. Because as scripture explains Sin is a matter of the intentions of ones heart.

If you kill without being sanctioned by God or the governing body he has put into place it is murder, which is a sin. If you lie without a direct command from God it is a sin. The difference being God's Expressed Will.

Of the 10 Commandments, 16 “You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor." is not saying do not lie, and 13 “You shall not murder." is not saying do not kill.
At the heart of bearing false testimony is what root sin? It is deceit. What is at the core of a lie? it is still deceit

That's why Moses records in Leviticus 19:

11 “‘Do not steal.
“‘Do not lie.
“‘Do not deceive one another. 12 “‘Do not swear falsely by my name and so profane the name of your God. I am the LORD.

Also know the "10 commandments" are not the standard in which you are using them. Christ full fills the law and explains this in Mt. 5. This means that this is much more to sin than the ten commandments Or any of the other commands in the OT.
 
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juvenissun

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This post is ridiculous. You Quoted a book and gave a chapter but fail to mentioned a verse that supports any of what you have claimed.(In previous posts)

Look, if you want to believe this because this is how you "feel" then by all means have the courage to do so. But do not misrepresent the word of God to give you the illusion of authority.

If this act is not blaspheme against the Holy Spirit it is the paved road that leads to that sin. In that you are taking a legitimate work of the holy Spirit and twisting it to suit your own agenda.

If you wish to show me where I am mistaken then please take the time to highlight the verses in question:

Otherwise know that you telling white lies is still a sin unless you are in a OT battle.

In Judges 19-20, Israelites fight Benjamites.

The first war: Israelites asked God: should we fight? God says: Go and fight. Israelites were defeated.

The second war: Israelites asked God again: should we fight? God says: Go and fight. Israelites were defeated.

The third war: Israelites asked God: should we fight again, or simply quit? God says: Go and fight, you will win this time.

In the third war, Israelite tricked (cheated) Benjamites and won.
 
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drich0150

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In Judges 19-20, Israelites fight Benjamites.

The first war: Israelites asked God: should we fight? God says: Go and fight. Israelites were defeated.

The second war: Israelites asked God again: should we fight? God says: Go and fight. Israelites were defeated.

The third war: Israelites asked God: should we fight again, or simply quit? God says: Go and fight, you will win this time.

In the third war, Israelite tricked (cheated) Benjamites and won.

And to you this means lying is ok?

What of all of the direct commands that tell us not to lie or practice deceit? do we simply ignore a direct command because one can twist this story to suit a want to practice deceit?
 
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juvenissun

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And to you this means lying is ok?

What of all of the direct commands that tell us not to lie or practice deceit? do we simply ignore a direct command because one can twist this story to suit a want to practice deceit?

No.

I have explained why. But we should not ignore what the story is trying to teach on this issue.
 
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nebulaJP

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I am sure this have been discussed time and again, endlessly and interminably, and so can anyone direct me to some good thread on the topic, or if not a good short one-sentence answer if you have one. THANKS! ;)

I have a thread on this. Click on the arrow.

 
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