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What is Science?

Kylie

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I'm going to have to shout a big BS on that one.

http://www.nature.com/news/replication-studies-bad-copy-1.10634

QUOTE:

Daryl Bem, a social psychologist at Cornell University in Ithaca, New York, showed student volunteers 48 words and then abruptly asked them to write down as many as they could remember. Next came a practice session: students were given a random subset of the test words and were asked to type them out. Bem found that some students were more likely to remember words in the test if they had later practised them. Effect preceded cause.

Bem published his findings in the Journal of Personality and Social Psychology (JPSP) along with eight other experiments1 providing evidence for what he refers to as “psi”, or psychic effects. There is, needless to say, no shortage of scientists sceptical about his claims....

Consider the aftermath of Bem's notorious paper. When the three groups who failed to reproduce the word-recall results combined and submitted their results for publication, the JPSP, Science and Psychological Science all said that they do not publish straight replications. The British Journal of Psychology sent the paper out for peer review, but rejected it. Bem was one of the peer reviewers on the paper. The beleaguered paper eventually found a home at PLoS ONE9, a journal that publishes all “technically sound” papers, regardless of novelty.
----------------------------
I repeat again so you get the point:

the JPSP, Science and Psychological Science all said that they do not publish straight replications.

So if you think a study is wrong, you want to replicate it, and get published? Good luck with that!!!!

Science?! Self-correcting?! Don't make me laugh!

So two journals that deal with PSYCHOLOGY say they won't publish replications, and you immediately assume that this means that no scientist is ever interested in replicating previous experiments to check that the results are actually accurate?

Well, the fact is, we have seen that replications in the field of psychology actually FAIL when replication is attempted. SO it's no surprise that these journals in that field don't want to replicate. How about you show me a physics journal, or a geology journal, or a virology journal that refuses to publish replications, huh? You can't just claim that ALL science peer review journals do this when you cherry pick your results.
 
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Kylie

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And this is why we can never fully trust science, generally speaking.

How do you figure this?

Science can't be trusted because it has a method to determine for a fact if it is wrong?
 
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VirOptimus

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Science cannot be blindly and fully trusted because science has shown itself to be wrong here and there.

Science is a method, not an entity.

People are wrong, not the scientific method. Stop tilting at windmills. Try to educate yourself on the subject you are trying to debate.
 
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Bradly Capel

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Hi,
English per se is more like a fourth language for me. Science is a language. Troubleshooting is a language. Engineering is a language. Research is a language. ~~ is a language. ~visions~ is a language. ~my words~ is a language. ~feelings~ is a language. ESL is a language. American is a language. S**** is a language. Semiconductors is a language, and so on and so forth.
It appears you only have one language. It is Philosophy.
OK, It's just as I thought, good luck.
 
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joshua 1 9

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Hi,

English per se is more like a fourth language for me. Science is a language. Troubleshooting is a language. Engineering is a language. Research is a language. ~~ is a language. ~visions~ is a language. ~my words~ is a language. ~feelings~ is a language. ESL is a language. American is a language. S**** is a language. Semiconductors is a language, and so on and so forth.
What language is this written in?

maxresdefault.jpg
 
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Zosimus

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So two journals that deal with PSYCHOLOGY say they won't publish replications, and you immediately assume that this means that no scientist is ever interested in replicating previous experiments to check that the results are actually accurate?

Well, the fact is, we have seen that replications in the field of psychology actually FAIL when replication is attempted. SO it's no surprise that these journals in that field don't want to replicate. How about you show me a physics journal, or a geology journal, or a virology journal that refuses to publish replications, huh? You can't just claim that ALL science peer review journals do this when you cherry pick your results.
Your answer is irrelevant. Physics journals publish (sometimes) replications or failed replications. And here I thought we were talking about biology. Or are you arguing that evolution is something studied by physicists?

As you can see in this article the ten-fold increase in retractions are concentrated heavily in "biologically-oriented fields." That's nice to know.

Of course, I love the spin you put on it. If a creation scientist published a paper, and it got retracted, that would be proof that creation science is not much of a science. However, when evolutionary biologists have papers retracted, that's proof that science is doing what it should do – finding errors and correcting them.

Hypocritical much?

The problem, as I have pointed out repeatedly, is misuse and misunderstanding of p-values. Some people (not evolutionary biologists, unfortunately) have started taking notice of the problem. As you can see in this article:

“This means that if a single researcher runs 20 analyses, he or she will find one spurious—or false-positive–discovery by chance,” Ioannidis says. “This was quite tolerable in the past when there were fewer scientists running fewer analyses. However, now there are millions of scientists, some of whom run millions of analyses in each study they conduct. To avoid false-positive results in genetics, the current goal for a p value should be less than 0.00000005.” Many other fields should also become more stringent in their statistical criteria for claiming discoveries, he adds.

So how is evolutionary science doing? I don't know, so I went looking at found a study that involved evolution at this link, which suggests that dinosaurs evolved rapidly. Now comes the problem of backtracking. I found a source for the article at nature.com, from which I backtracked to the PNAS website. Unfortunately, I don't seem to be any closer to the p-value! Now downloading the appendix pdf to see what information that contains. Nope -- nothing useful there. So basically, we have an evolutionary paper that's probably complete garbage posted in the news section of Google and links to it don't provide any information at all to determine how reliable the information is.

But all of this is meant to reassure me that "science works" in some unexplained way. Give me a break.

Do you want to convince me of one of your evolutionary findings? Show me a p-value less than 0.00000005
 
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Zosimus

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How do you figure this?

Science can't be trusted because it has a method to determine for a fact if it is wrong?
This is a myth, of course. Science can theoretically determine whether a theory is wrong. However, there is the problem of holistic underdetermination. If you run an experiment and don't get the right result, then clearly something is wrong but what is it? Is it a badly designed experiment? Is one of the instruments not working right? Is the underlying theory wrong? Is one of the alternate hypotheses wrong? You can't know.
 
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Loudmouth

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How do you figure this?

Science can't be trusted because it has a method to determine for a fact if it is wrong?

Better yet, Zosimus says that we should not use the scientific method at all. Zosimus then turns around and uses science to disprove the efficacy of medical treatments, and trusts it as reliable information. Gotta love the hypocrisy.
 
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Loudmouth

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This is a myth, of course. Science can theoretically determine whether a theory is wrong. However, there is the problem of holistic underdetermination. If you run an experiment and don't get the right result, then clearly something is wrong but what is it? Is it a badly designed experiment? Is one of the instruments not working right? Is the underlying theory wrong? Is one of the alternate hypotheses wrong? You can't know.

And yet you point to these studies as reasons why some medical treatments are not efficacious.
 
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Zosimus

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And yet you point to these studies as reasons why some medical treatments are not efficacious.
The answer is simple, Loudmouth, but you don't get it because you know nothing about math.

To determine the probability that something is true after a test, you must know two things. First, you must know the a priori chance that the condition is true, and then you must know the power of the test. You routinely spew nonsense here without paying attention to either of these two factors.

Let's suppose, for example, that we have a test that is 99 percent accurate and produces false results only 1 percent of the time. Let's also suppose that we run this test on a man, and it comes back positive. What does that mean? Well, if it's a pregnancy test, that means that the test is wrong because men don't get pregnant. The a priori chance that a man is pregnant is zero, and so it doesn't matter if the test is 99.99999999999999999% accurate the test is still wrong, and the chances that the man is secretly pregnant remain stubbornly stuck at 0.0%

So now that the concept has been explained (though I despair that you will ever understand it), let's move into the realm of treatment for diseases. Let's suppose that a person has disease X, and someone claims that eating fruit Y will cure you of disease X. What's the a priori chance that this claim is true? Well, we cannot know, but suppose that we observe that disease X regularly occurs in a region where fruit Y is eaten, we might suppose that the chances that fruit Y cures the disease is low. Let's assume that we guess, calculate, or in some other way come up with the idea that fruit Y is only about 1 percent likely to cure the disease.

Then we conduct a scientific study. Lo and behold, fruit Y is shown to cure disease X with p = 0.05 on the button. What does that mean? Well, it means that we should update our estimation of the probability that fruit Y cures disease X. How do we do that? Well, we use Bayes' Theorem. That theory states that:

P(H|E) = P(E|H) * P(H) / P(E)

Where P(H|E) means "the probability of the hypothesis in light of the evidence."

(number crunching on an Excel spreadsheet).

All right, that means that the new probability that fruit Y cures disease X has risen from 1 percent to slightly over 16 percent. Now that's a big jump in probability, but it still means that I am far from convinced that fruit Y cures disease X. Now let's suppose that another test is done and this test determines that fruit Y is no better than a placebo.

At this point, I am obviously going to again re-evaluate my belief that fruit Y cures disease X down substantially. In fact, the most logical conclusion is that the result of the first test was due to p-hacking, which is known to be prevalent in the sciences.

Now at this point, you will start whining that I am using science when all I am doing is using a calculator and a bit of common sense.
 
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Loudmouth

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The answer is simple, Loudmouth, but you don't get it because you know nothing about math.

To determine the probability that something is true after a test, you must know two things. First, you must know the a priori chance that the condition is true, and then you must know the power of the test. You routinely spew nonsense here without paying attention to either of these two factors.

Let's suppose, for example, that we have a test that is 99 percent accurate and produces false results only 1 percent of the time.

Your tests are based on the fallacy you like to harp on.

If A then B.

B.

Therefore, A.

Those are the tests you are referring to.

Let's also suppose that we run this test on a man, and it comes back positive. What does that mean? Well, if it's a pregnancy test, that means that the test is wrong because men don't get pregnant. The a priori chance that a man is pregnant is zero, and so it doesn't matter if the test is 99.99999999999999999% accurate the test is still wrong, and the chances that the man is secretly pregnant remain stubbornly stuck at 0.0%

Pregnancy tests are based on the same logical fallacy you claim the scientific method violates.

If pregnant, then high levels of specific hormones.

Hormone levels are here.

Therefore, pregnant.

Look familiar?
 
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Zosimus

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Your tests are based on the fallacy you like to harp on.

If A then B.

B.

Therefore, A.

Those are the tests you are referring to.



Pregnancy tests are based on the same logical fallacy you claim the scientific method violates.

If pregnant, then high levels of specific hormones.

Hormone levels are here.

Therefore, pregnant.

Look familiar?
Ahh my logic-challenged friend. You really don't get it, do you?

Let's try to take it a little more slowly so that you can get up to speed.

Let's imagine that we have a simple statement:

If it's raining, then the ground will be wet. (If P then Q or P=>Q ).
It's raining. (P)

So what do we know? We know that the ground is wet. This is called modus ponens and is a valid logical argument.

But what if it's not raining? Many people will say, "Then the ground will be dry." However, we cannot conclude that. Maybe John just washed his car. Maybe someone just ran over a fire hydrant. Maybe there's a burst pipe.

People who reason:

P=>Q
not P (~P)
Therefore, not Q (~Q)

are committing a logical fallacy called Denying the Antecedent.

So what about this? What if we notice that the ground is wet. Can we conclude that it's raining? Again, no. Maybe John just washed his car. Maybe someone just ran over a fire hydrant. Maybe there's a burst pipe. People who reason this way are committing a logical fallacy called Affirming the Consequent.

So what about this? What if the ground is not wet? Can we conclude that it's not raining? Yes, we can. This is a valid logical argument called modus tollens.
-----------------
So what does this have to do with pregnancy tests? Well, here's now pregnancy tests work. They don't actually test for pregnancy. They test for human chorionic gonadotropin (hGC). The logic pattern followed is this:

If you're pregnant, then your level of hGC will be above a certain amount.

So what's the argument with the pregnant man? Here's how it works:

If you're pregnant, then your level of hGC will be above a certain amount.
John's level of hGC is above a certain amount.
Therefore, John must be pregnant.

But John isn't pregnant! So you see, pregnancy tests can and do fail. So rather than relying blindly on the result of some scientific test, we need to use our brains and realize that no matter what science tells us, John isn't pregnant!

So I am hardly committing a logical fallacy by pointing out that pregnancy tests are far from infallible. Quite the opposite.
 
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Loudmouth

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Ahh my logic-challenged friend. You really don't get it, do you?

Let's try to take it a little more slowly so that you can get up to speed.

Let's imagine that we have a simple statement:

If it's raining, then the ground will be wet. (If P then Q or P=>Q ).
It's raining. (P)

That's not what you are citing. For example, you mentioned pregnancy tests. In those tests, they use the presence of specific hormones to indicate pregnancy.

If pregnant, then high levels of specific hormones.

Hormone levels are high.

Therefore, pregnant.

Whether you like it or not, you rely on these types of tests for the conclusions you keep presenting in this thread, such as medicines that supposedly don't work.
 
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Zosimus

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That's not what you are citing. For example, you mentioned pregnancy tests. In those tests, they use the presence of specific hormones to indicate pregnancy.

If pregnant, then high levels of specific hormones.

Hormone levels are high.

Therefore, pregnant.

Whether you like it or not, you rely on these types of tests for the conclusions you keep presenting in this thread, such as medicines that supposedly don't work.
When I suggest that something doesn't work, it's always with a modus tollens argument.

When you suggest that something does work, it's always by affirming the consequent.

The sad thing is that you're so logic challenged that you don't realize that.
 
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katerinah1947

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What language is this written in?

maxresdefault.jpg

Hi,

That is written in 'Clear' language, but also as translated from research language by what is called a technical writer, to a human understandable language such as user or consumer language. It appears the above, is for technicians, but only possibly for technicians as it is far to general in nature to be used by technicians, as they know all of that anyway.
The other possibility is it is just for consumer safety concerns as so written in their language.

LOVE,
 
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