What is Saving Faith?

RobertPate

Well-Known Member
Dec 7, 2007
944
236
✟44,551.00
Faith
Marital Status
Married
Are you referring to those that have been indoctrinated to believe that the nine supernatural Gifts of the Holy Spirit ceased to operate in Believers after the death of the original 1st Century Apostles?
Hopefully you've been blessed to have fellowship with Christians that are not rejectors of the Full Gospel with evidence of the supernatural Gifts of HIS Holy Spirit. Instead of a watered down gospel of man's feel good social christianity.
Find fellowship in a FULL Gospel Church.
What is a full Gospel church?
 
Upvote 0

Ligurian

Cro-Magnon
Apr 21, 2021
3,589
536
America
✟22,234.00
Country
United States
Faith
Pagan
Marital Status
Private
No one will be saved or justified by their works, Romans 4:5. If that is what your church is teaching get out.

What makes you think the circumcision should be following Paul? Seriously.

1 Corinthians 4:15 and Ephesians 4:11 "ten thousand teachers"..."pastors and teachers"
VS
Matthew 23:8-10 and John 10:1-16 "one teacher"..."one shepherd"

Can someone "go to church" but avoid "pastors", "teachers", "fathers" and "rabbis"?

That is why I don't go to the organized church.

Then maybe you shouldn't assume other people go to a church building.
Besides, most churches seem to be teaching Pauline theology.

Now,
Why do you think non-gentiles should be following Romans 4:5?

The Gospel of the Kingdom of God on Earth says works are required:
Matthew 5:17-20--7:24-25, John 14:15-17 and Revelation 3:8-10.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Ligurian

Cro-Magnon
Apr 21, 2021
3,589
536
America
✟22,234.00
Country
United States
Faith
Pagan
Marital Status
Private
[...]
John didn't write to the gentiles, because he was sent only to the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel, too.

But the people who want to create unity are doing so at the expense of the truth.

Take a look at Deuteronomy 28 and see if you think the Law is over for the circumcision.
[...]

The gospel of John is not an epistle written only to any particular group or people, it’s a record of the gospel account just like the rest of the gospel accounts including Luke who was a gentile. Even in John’s epistles there is absolutely no indication that they were written to any particular group. He never once gives any indication in any of his epistles of who he is even writing to other than using words like “brethren” or “little children”.

Like I said before Peter was sent to the Jews and yet he also preached to the gentiles in Antioch, Alexandria, Rome, and to Cornelius and his household. None of the apostles taught exclusively to any particular group. Paul was sent to preach to the gentiles and yet he preached in the synagogues every Saturday. The apostles were tasked with spreading the gospel TO ALL NATIONS.

You can't tell to whom John is sent ...even with Matthew 10:5-7... seriously?

Try the definitions of "brethren" and "little children"...

Brethren: His Disciples, Matthew 12:48-49, Matthew 28:10, John 20:17.
Disciples: continue with Him, John 8:31-32.
Little Children: His Disciples, John 13:33.

Acts of the apostles 15 says gentiles were taught in the synagogues, too.
If Paul taught the circumcision... he was confused:
Acts of the apostles 22:21, Romans 11:13, Ephesians 3:1, 2 Timothy 1:11

If Luke's right about Peter et al teaching gentiles, then all of these verses are wrong:

Galatians 2:7-9 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as [the gospel] of the circumcision [was] unto Peter;[8] (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles)[9] And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we [should go] unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.KJV

Matthew 10:5-7 These Twelve Jesus sent forth and Commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:[6] But go rather to the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel.[7] And as ye go, preach, saying, The Kingdom of Heaven is at hand.KJV ([7] reign of God)

(Isaiah 52:4-7 Thus saith the Lord, My people went down before to Egypt to sojourn there, and were carried away forcibly to the Assyrians.[5] And now why are ye here? Thus saith the Lord, Because My people was taken for nothing, wonder ye and howl. Thus saith the Lord, On account of you My name is continually blasphemed among the gentiles.[6] Therefore shall My people know My name in that day, for I am He that speaks: I am present,[7] as a season of beauty upon the mountains, as the feet of one preaching glad tidings of peace, as one preaching good news: for I will publish thy salvation, saying, O Sion, thy God shall reign.LXX ([6] I am He that speaks... Deuteronomy 18:18-19))

Matthew 28:16-20 Then the Eleven Disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them.[17] And when they saw Him, they worshipped Him, but some doubted.[18] And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All authority is given unto Me in Heaven and in Earth.[19] Go ye therefore, and Disciple all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.[20] teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.KJV
(Jeremiah 23:3 And I will gather in the remnant of My people in every land whither I have driven them out, and will set them in their pasture, and they shall increase and be multiplied.LXX
Psalms 44:11 Thou madest us as sheep for meat and Thou scatteredst us among the nations.LXX)

The 10 tribes were scattered among the nations, and Jesus ONLY THEN got control of the whole world in Matthew 28:18, so that He COULD send the 11 into the whole world AT THAT TIME, to seek the Other Sheep of John 10:16.(in KJV)

Why do his own gentiles want to take the title "apostle of the gentiles" from Paul? His title is meaningless if everyone had already been doing it... long before Paul.

In fact, if the 11 really had been sent to the gentiles... then Paul's account is superfluous and so is his gospel. Because if the gentiles had been taught everything Jesus taught the 11 Disciples... then none of "the vicarious doctrines" would exist, the gentiles wouldn't have the claim "spiritual Jews"... etc., etc., ad infinitum.


The 11 were sent where the Father sent His Son:

Romans 15:8 Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision...KJV

Matthew 15:24 But He answered and said, I am not sent but unto the Lost Sheep of the house of Israel.KJV

Matthew 18:11-13 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.[12] How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray?[13] And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray.*KJV

Deuteronomy 18:18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren like unto thee, and will put My words in His mouth, and He shall speak unto them all that I shall command Him.LXX

John 17:6-8 I have manifested Thy name unto the men which Thou gavest Me out of the world, Thine they were and Thou gavest them Me, and they have kept Thy word.[7] Now they have known that all things whatsoever Thou hast given Me are of Thee.[8] For I have given unto them the words which Thou gavest Me, and they have received them and have known surely that I came out from Thee, and they have believed that Thou didst send Me.KJV

_____________
* Matthew 9:11-13 And when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto His Disciples, Why eateth your Master with publicans and sinners?[12] But when Jesus heard that, He said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick.[13] But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.KJV (Matthew 18:13 went not astray (in KJV))

Obviously sarcasm, because of the context of that referenced verse:

Hosea 6:6-8 Therefore have I mown down your prophets; I have slain them with the word of My mouth: and My judgment shall go forth as the light.[7] For I will have mercy rather than sacrifice, and the knowledge of God rather than whole-burnt-offerings.[8] But they are as a man transgressing a covenant.LXX

Micah 6:6-8 Wherewithal shall I reach the Lord, and lay hold of My God most high? shall I reach Him by whole-burnt-offerings, by calves of a year old? [7] Will the Lord accept thousands of rams, or ten thousands of fat goats? should I give my first-born for ungodliness, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul?[8] Has it not been told thee, O man, what is good? or what does the Lord require of thee, but to do justice and love mercy, and be ready to walk with the Lord thy God?LXX


They were righteous under the Law only because of their sacrificial system, Isaiah 66.(in LXX).
Human-sacrifice: Micah 6:7.LXX, Jeremiah 19:11-13.LXX, John 11:49-51.KJV
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

RobertPate

Well-Known Member
Dec 7, 2007
944
236
✟44,551.00
Faith
Marital Status
Married
Then maybe you shouldn't assume other people go to a church building.
Besides, most churches seem to be teaching Pauline theology.

Now,
Why do you think non-gentiles should be following Romans 4:5?

The Gospel of the Kingdom of God on Earth says works are required:
Matthew 5:17-20--7:24-25, John 14:15-17 and Revelation 3:8-10.
Under the New Covenant Christians are justified by faith apart from the works of the law.
"By the works of the law (what you do) no flesh will be justified in his sight" Romans 3:20.
 
Upvote 0

GDL

Well-Known Member
Jul 25, 2020
4,247
1,255
SE
✟97,887.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
-
I would like to see a written eternal life salvation plan. That would be used by one of the believers in, obedience salvation for receiving eternal life salvation.

What is told to the person/people who, you may encounter on a street, etc.. who may ask, what do i need to do, to go to heaven.

Basic outline:
By God's Spirit:
Respond positively to God's drawing
Obey Jesus Christ's command to hear & learn who and what Jesus the Christ is
Obey God's command to believe in the name of His Son Jesus the Christ
Obey God's command to abide & grow in Christ in love for God, neighbor, Christian siblings
Obey God's command to endure to the end
 
Upvote 0

RobertPate

Well-Known Member
Dec 7, 2007
944
236
✟44,551.00
Faith
Marital Status
Married
Basic outline:
By God's Spirit:
Respond positively to God's drawing
Obey Jesus Christ's command to hear & learn who and what Jesus the Christ is
Obey God's command to believe in the name of His Son Jesus the Christ
Obey God's command to abide & grow in Christ in love for God, neighbor, Christian siblings
Obey God's command to endure to the end
You will never bring anyone to Christ with that doctrine.

I used to do street witnessing with Christians-in-Action some years ago. This is what we would tell people that we encountered on the streets of Los Angeles.

"God loves you and wants you to be in heaven with him. This is why he sent Jesus into the world to be your savior. Jesus in your name and on your behalf, fulfilled all of the demands of God's Holy Law, by doing this he justified you. That was not enough. Jesus loves you so much that he took your sins upon himself and atoned for them. If you trust in Jesus today, you can be saved and have eternal life."
 
Upvote 0

GDL

Well-Known Member
Jul 25, 2020
4,247
1,255
SE
✟97,887.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
You will never bring anyone to Christ with that doctrine.

I used to do street witnessing with Christians-in-Action some years ago. This is what we would tell people that we encountered on the streets of Los Angeles.

"God loves you and wants you to be in heaven with him. This is why he sent Jesus into the world to be your savior. Jesus in your name and on your behalf, fulfilled all of the demands of God's Holy Law, by doing this he justified you. That was not enough. Jesus loves you so much that he took your sins upon himself and atoned for them. If you trust in Jesus today, you can be saved and have eternal life."

Setting aside your appeal to personal expertise, in this day your "God" and "Jesus" are terms in a sea of confusion. You have no idea what people have been told & what their orientations are. Go out and ask "christians" what they think "Christ" means, let alone asking pagans. You also mention sins as if everyone knows or believes what it means.

I'm sure you've read different approaches in the Text. Here are just a few:
  • See Jesus's approach in John 4:21-26 and every time you read the word "worship" know it means to bow in obeisance to a superior. Jesus said this is who God is seeking
  • Paul's approach in Acts 13 including Jesus' Davidic Kingship & Psalm 2 description of YHWH's Anointed
  • Paul's approach at the Areopagus in Acts 17 where his message about Jesus was as God's resurrected Judge and repentance is in the context of turning from ignorance of the true God
  • What about the description of Jesus' divinity that begins G-John; the genealogy of Matthew; the Gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God, and the Kingmaker Prophet John that begins Mark; Luke's immediate entry into the virgin birth, the Son of the Highest, the eternal Davidic Kingship of Jesus Christ?
  • Jesus command to go make disciples of the nations, teaching what He commands in Matthew 28 immediately after and in the context of His saying He was given all authority in Heaven and on earth after some "worshipped" (same word as John 4 mentioned above) Him and some hesitated.
  • Paul in Romans saying His ministry from God is to bring the nations to obedience of faith
Are you able to see the common theme?

At some point in evangelizing, which is teaching, we should be following examples from our Text. I'm not the only one to speak about how weak and actually wrong many of our messages have become.

In Spirit use some wisdom to deal on personal levels when able. Some need the love approach. Others do not and don't want it. At some point this has to become a message about willing submission to the true God and Christ. The problem with some of these institutional approaches and traditions is they start with God loves you and never get to obeying Him, which is actually loving Him as God.
 
Upvote 0

RobertPate

Well-Known Member
Dec 7, 2007
944
236
✟44,551.00
Faith
Marital Status
Married
Setting aside your appeal to personal expertise, in this day your "God" and "Jesus" are terms in a sea of confusion. You have no idea what people have been told & what their orientations are. Go out and ask "christians" what they think "Christ" means, let alone asking pagans. You also mention sins as if everyone knows or believes what it means.

I'm sure you've read different approaches in the Text. Here are just a few:
  • See Jesus's approach in John 4:21-26 and every time you read the word "worship" know it means to bow in obeisance to a superior. Jesus said this is who God is seeking
  • Paul's approach in Acts 13 including Jesus' Davidic Kingship & Psalm 2 description of YHWH's Anointed
  • Paul's approach at the Areopagus in Acts 17 where his message about Jesus was as God's resurrected Judge and repentance is in the context of turning from ignorance of the true God
  • What about the description of Jesus' divinity that begins G-John; the genealogy of Matthew; the Gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God, and the Kingmaker Prophet John that begins Mark; Luke's immediate entry into the virgin birth, the Son of the Highest, the eternal Davidic Kingship of Jesus Christ?
  • Jesus command to go make disciples of the nations, teaching what He commands in Matthew 28 immediately after and in the context of His saying He was given all authority in Heaven and on earth after some "worshipped" (same word as John 4 mentioned above) Him and some hesitated.
  • Paul in Romans saying His ministry from God is to bring the nations to obedience of faith
Are you able to see the common theme?

At some point in evangelizing, which is teaching, we should be following examples from our Text. I'm not the only one to speak about how weak and actually wrong many of our messages have become.

In Spirit use some wisdom to deal on personal levels when able. Some need the love approach. Others do not and don't want it. At some point this has to become a message about willing submission to the true God and Christ. The problem with some of these institutional approaches and traditions is they start with God loves you and never get to obeying Him, which is actually loving Him as God.

Obedience is the results of love. A good son does not need laws, rules or instructions. He knows what is required of him and lives accordingly. He would never do anything to shame or embarrass his father because he loves him.

When presenting the Gospel to the unsaved the Holy Spirit is present to convict the unsaved person of their need for Christ. The presenter is not responsible for the outcome.

There will not be any laws, rules or religion in heaven. Where there is law there is judgment and condemnation. We are not under the law now, nor will we be under the law in heaven. Jesus wants to be our friend, not our taskmaster.
 
Upvote 0

GDL

Well-Known Member
Jul 25, 2020
4,247
1,255
SE
✟97,887.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
@Robert Pate

In a primary sense, obedience is love. If there are no laws, rules or instructions, then obedience is immaterial. If God is not the authority, then He is not God.

You've made up a religion, but it is not unique. It is licentiousness.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

GDL

Well-Known Member
Jul 25, 2020
4,247
1,255
SE
✟97,887.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Obedience is the results of love.

Some of our obedience stems from our love.

Obedience is love: NKJ 1 John 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. NKJ 2 John 1:6 This is love, that we walk according to His commandments. This is the commandment, that as you have heard from the beginning, you should walk in it.

A good son does not need laws, rules or instructions. He knows what is required of him and lives accordingly.

Maybe it would be good for you - the one who may be the only person I have ever encountered who professes equality to Christ - to instruct us about everything that is required of us, so we too need no laws, rules or instructions.

He would never do anything to shame or embarrass his father because he loves him.

Human will and human actions do not always align apart from human perfectionism, which you proclaim to have achieved.

NKJ 1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

NKJ 1 John 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

The presenter is not responsible for the outcome.

The outcome is not up to us, yet we are always responsible for the quality of our efforts.

There will not be any laws, rules or religion in heaven.

As long as God exists, there will always be perfect righteousness and perfect righteousness will always remain the required standard for His entire creation.

Where there is law there is judgment and condemnation.

Since lawlessness exists, it's good that there is law.

We are not under the law now, nor will we be under the law in heaven.

Please explain what "under the law" means.

Jesus wants to be our friend, not our taskmaster.

NKJ John 15:14 "You are My friends if you do whatever I command you.

Your theology is a mess. One of the attributes of antichrist is to refute the authority of Jesus Christ.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

TedT

Member since Job 38:7
Jan 11, 2021
1,850
334
Vancouver Island
✟85,846.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Obedience is the results of love. A good son does not need laws, rules or instructions. He knows what is required of him and lives accordingly. He would never do anything to shame or embarrass his father because he loves him.

Was Adam 'good'?

When we consider the purpose of the law:
Rom 3:20 Therefore no one will be justified in His sight by works of the law. For the law merely brings awareness of sin.
with
1 Timothy 1:9 We also know that the law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious, etc, etc.
might we not properly conclude that Adam and Eve were already sinners when they received the law not to eat?
 
Upvote 0

AbbaLove

Circumcism Of The Heart
May 16, 2015
2,488
760
✟119,587.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
In Relationship
What is a full Gospel church?
Perhaps you googled "full Gospel" and decided it wasn't for you; especially if you're more of a cessationist persuasion than continualist persuasion.

Another way of defining a cassationist is one who is more beholding to the nine characteristics of Galatians 5:22 than that the nine supernatural Gifts of 1 Corinthians 12:1-11 are active among born again Christians. Gifts that may actually be stiffled/surpressed by the Pastor who has a worship agenda/schedule to adhere.

Even for those that are more of a continualist (e.g. Pentecostal) belief they may interpret verse 26 as their Pastor's preference to be silent even when prompted by the Spirit. On the other hand some Pentecostal/Charasmatic Pastors will at times encourage everyone to all raise their voices in one accord praising GOD in their own "tongue" language. Personally, i don't believe that is scriptural. Neither for one believer who has a habit of always occasionally speaking in his/her tongue during the service. As if to let those nearby know that he/she has the gift of speaking in an unknown tongue. Or a member that feels the need to say "Amen" at least a couple times during the Pastor's sermon. On the other hand there are some Pastors/Priests that don't believe it is proper for born again Believers to spontanteously raise one's hands or clap during worshipfull singing. Born again Believers may actually be quenching the Spirit by not using their Spiritual Gift to encourage others ... thus is the condition of even some of today's Pentecostal churches.

If you decide to checkout a "full gospel" congregation(s) you may want to ask an elder to explain why so few "full gospel" churches don't follow Paul's admonition of orderly worship in verse 26 (everyone) if that is the kind of "full gospel" congregation that's your hearts desire. Ask if the church has a recorded CD teaching that explains the correct interpretation of verse 26 to your congregation.

According to your previous posts it sounds like you haven't been overly impressed by the churches you've attended with born again members seemingly passive not exhibiting any of the nine supernatural anointings (full gospel) mentioned in 1 Cor 12: 1-11.

How one interprets verse 26 seems to determne whether one is a cessationist or a continualist (1 Corinthians 14:26-33 namely the first verse (26) ...

1 Corinthians 14:26
26 How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, each one/every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying. (KJV, NKJV, NASB, NIV, ESV, ISV with "each one" used most often).
1 Corinthians 14:26
Well, my brothers and sisters, let’s summarize. When you meet together, one/whoever among you will sing, another will teach, another will tell some special revelation God has given, one will speak in tongues, and another will interpret what is said. But everything that is done must strengthen all of you. (NLT, ABPE, NAB)
1 Corinthians 14:26
This is what I mean, my friends. When you meet for worship, one person has a hymn, another a teaching, another a revelation from God, another a message in strange tongues, and still another the explanation of what is said. Everything must be of help to the church. (GNT)
1 Corinthians 14:26
My friends, when you meet to worship, you must do everything for the good of everyone there. That's how it should be when someone sings or teaches or tells what God has said or speaks an unknown language or explains what the language means. (CEV)
1 Corinthians 14:26
So what is to be done, brothers? When you assemble, one has a psalm, another an instruction, a revelation, a tongue, or an interpretation. Everything should be done for building up. (NAB)
1 Corinthians 14:26
What then, brethren? Whenever you assemble, there is not one of you who is not ready either with a song of praise, a sermon, a revelation, a 'tongue,' or an interpretation. Let everything be done with a view to the building up of faith and character. (WNT)​

27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.
28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.
29 Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.
30 If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace.
31 For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted.
32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.
33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.​

Does the Pastor think he will lose control if he gives free reign to the Holy Spirit to operate among the born again members with Spiritual Gifts? Does he instead insist on an orderly formal worship agenda from say 10:30 to 11:30. Afterall some of the most influential members want to beat the rush to their favorite restaurant or not miss their favorite football game or don't want to hear a lengthy sermon even if its annointed by the Holy Spirit.

 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

RobertPate

Well-Known Member
Dec 7, 2007
944
236
✟44,551.00
Faith
Marital Status
Married
@Robert Pate

In a primary sense, obedience is love. If there are no laws, rules or instructions, then obedience is immaterial. If God is not the authority, then He is not God.

You've made up a religion, but it is not unique. It is licentiousness.
Under the New Covenant God wants to be your friend, not your task master. Sounds like you want a task master, not a friend.
 
Upvote 0