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What is Saving Faith?

GDL

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The gift of God which is a living, bold trust in God's grace

You've included a lot of beauty in this post. From what you've said, I see much reverence to say the least. In the end in needs to align with Scripture. I hope you agree. Not all of what I ask or say will mean I have disagreements. It may just be that I'm asking for substantiation from Scripture.

With that said, why do you see our Belief/Faith to be a gift of God?

Faith says, "Christ has died for me, thanks be to God".

When I put Scripture together with Scripture and work to build from a foundation up, I see Faith first saying Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God, and I understand what these 2 titles mean or at least can summarize in a brief statement.

And so even in our failure and faithlessness, God remains faithful; though we fall and fail and trip and often return to our own vomit like a dog, or act like the prodigal son to curse our Father and go inhabit the mud with pigs--we have a God who loves us, calls us His, and will always throw His arms around us and clothe us with the robes of His only-begotten Son

This sounds beautiful and may be true but there is Scripture that brings some of it into question:
  • I'm not going to quote all the warning passages about things like falling away but I refer to them hereby
  • NKJ Hebrews 6:1-3 Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, 2 of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. 3 And this we will do if God permits.
  • NKJ 2 Timothy 2:24-26 And a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient, 25 in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth, 26 and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will.
  • NKJ Romans 11:21-22 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.
  • This is just a bit of where we can go in Scripture to see that we are dealing with a perfect Father and Lord who at some point will take issue with our waywardness. What His limits are and what the consequences are has been discussed for millennia. I personally find a balance between His grace & mercy & kindness while also remembering the Fear of God that is related to our godliness.
  • The prodigal son was pushed to his end and chose to return to a loving father. What if he hadn't? What if we take some of the above instruction and wonder if there was a point of no return for him? What if he had died in his disobedient state? I know these are arguments from silence but some of the above references are not silence.
Though we have betrayed Him a million times over, His love for us cannot be thwarted.

But as I just quoted in another post:

John 15:5-10 "I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 "If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
7 "If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you. 8 "By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples.
9 "As the Father loved Me, I also have loved you; abide (command) in My love. 10 "If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.

I understand there is a tension between Scriptures that can be interpreted to back up what you say and Scriptures like this one. But these tensions must be worked out. They are not contradictions.
 
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AbbaLove

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1 John 2:27 (NASB followed by AMPC)

As for you, the anointing which you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need for anyone to teach you; but as His anointing teaches you about all things, and is true and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you abide in Him.
(NASB)​

But as for you, the anointing (the sacred appointment, the unction) which you received from Him abides [permanently] in you; [so] then you have no need that anyone should instruct you. But just as His anointing teaches you concerning everything and is true and is no falsehood, so you must abide in (live in, never depart from) Him [being rooted in Him, knit to Him], just as [His anointing] has taught you [to do].
(AMPC)​

Paul an Apostle to both Jews and Gentlles made a point of informing Peter that the Good News he learned (as expressed in his letters) was not taught by religious men. What was the result of Paul's Jewish indoctrintion other than religious pride and persecuting followers of HaMashiach Yeshuah, the Christ Jesus. The indwelling presence of HIS Spirit (Ruach HaKodesh) was more than sufficient as Paul's one and only Teacher.

To me an indication of "Saving Faith" is when one comes to the realization (via the Holy Spirit) that Jesus Christ is the physical manifestation of GOD Incarnate.
 
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GDL

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To me an indication of "Saving Faith" is when one comes to the realization (via the Holy Spirit) that Jesus Christ is the physical manifestation of GOD Incarnate.

I'm sure you know that many will separate and not deal with the divinity of Jesus Christ as being a necessity for salvation.

At the end of all this, IMO, it's clear in the NC Writings alone that He is God. I also see the foundation of Paul's Gospel clearly being a reference to Psalm 2 (Acts 13:33) where we're informed that Jesus is YHWH's Christ and where this title is explained to some degree. As we trace this person through Tanakh, as I recall from studies, we see direct correlations to YHWH.

Honestly, IMO you come closer to most I've seen on this forum to isolating the foundation of Faith. At minimum it's Faith the Yeshua is YHWH's Anointed who inherits the earth and rules all including kings. It's a mistake to shy away from or minimize Him being God Himself.

Thanks for making this statement.
 
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RobertPate

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What about love? Can we be saved by faith without love? I feel like I’ve asked you this before but I don’t recall ever getting a reply to this question.
I don't think so. One of the attributes of the Holy Spirit is love. Those that are indwelt with the Holy Spirit tend to be more loving.
 
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RobertPate

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For God so loved THE WORLD that He gave His only begotten Son. That means God loves everyone, that’s why Christ died for everyone. Even the wicked people he killed in the flood God grieved for them. So God’s love for everyone has no bearing on salvation because most of the people He loves will be condemned.
They condemn themselves by rejecting Christ as their savior.
 
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BNR32FAN

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They condemn themselves by rejecting Christ as their savior.

Yes but the point was that the love of God is a separate matter from salvation since most of the people whom God loves will be condemned. So your implication that Romans 8:35 indicates that people can’t lose their salvation is incorrect.
 
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FineLinen

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Yes but the point was that the love of God is a separate matter from salvation since most of the people whom God loves will be condemned.

BNR Nonsense !

The love of God never fails.

Never never never

Glad news for all mankind.

The angel clearly meant to say I bring you Good News that will turn out to actually be bad news that will cause great sorrow for most people. Don't be afraid chances are most of you hearing/reading this should be afraid after all.
 
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ViaCrucis

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You've included a lot of beauty in this post. From what you've said, I see much reverence to say the least. In the end in needs to align with Scripture. I hope you agree. Not all of what I ask or say will mean I have disagreements. It may just be that I'm asking for substantiation from Scripture.

With that said, why do you see our Belief/Faith to be a gift of God?

Because it's what Scripture says. In Ephesians 2:8-9 we read "For it is by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not of works, lest anyone may boast." Grammatically "For it is by grace you have been saved through faith" is what is "not of yourselves, it is the gift of God". The faith through which we are saved by grace is itself from God. Which is also why in Romans 10 Paul explains that it is God who gives and works faith through the preaching of the Gospel,

"But what does it say? 'The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart' (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim); because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is sved. For the Scripture says, 'Everyone who believes in Him will not be put to shame.' For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing His riches on all who call on Him. For 'everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.'

How then will they call on Him in Whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in Him of Whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching? And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, 'How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!' But they have not all received the Gospel. For Isaiah says, 'Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?' So faith comes by hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.
" - Romans 10:8-17

This is why everyone, from the ancient fathers of the Church such as St. John Chrysostom and St. Augustine could confess that the faith which saves us is the gift of God, not of ourselves; and this is also what the Protestant Reformers were teaching in the 16th century. If it were not, then the entire doctrine of justification by grace alone through faith is meaningless. If faith is something we do, then we fall back to relying on ourselves and our power, our works.

When I put Scripture together with Scripture and work to build from a foundation up, I see Faith first saying Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God, and I understand what these 2 titles mean or at least can summarize in a brief statement.

"Christ died for me" only means something in the context of St. Peter's confession being true. And thus St. Peter's confession, that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God, is the rock and foundation upon which Christ builds and establishes His Church. And it is on that foundation that she is given the Great Commission, and thus preaches His Gospel, making disciples, baptizing them, through which God works and creates faith.

The full implications of what it means to confess that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, is why the Church also teaches and instructs. But if fully understanding this on a proper theological level is what is required for us to be saved, then that means most Christians probably aren't saved. But I hardly think it necessary for someone to go through a seminary course on proper Christology in order to be a forgiven and justified sinner. We absolutely should be teaching good theology, and the Faithful should be taught and grounded in what the Historic Creeds confess. It should be in our regular confession, in the hymns that we sing, in the prayers that we pray, in the sermons that we hear. But our Lord Jesus Himself taught that God has given Himself to the simple and to children, "'I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to little children;'" (Matthew 11:25). So the wonderful thing is that if we have faith in Him, because He gives us faith through the Gospel, then as we grow in that faith, learning as disciples, we will be trained up and instructed. Which is precisely why we also read that we ought to raise up our children in the way they should go, "Train up a child in the way he should go; even when he is old he will not depart from it." (Proverbs 22:6).

That is why the Church ordains pastors, we have teachers who teach, preachers who preach, instructors who instruct. That the Body of Christ might be built up from its Foundation (Ephesians 4:11-16), Jesus Christ our Lord (1 Corinthians 3:11), and be strengthened in Him, and by the truth, and that we might guard these things in our heart, and withstand against the assault of fiery arrows from the evil one as we are guarded by the shield that is our faith (Ephesians 6:16). Holding firm to the teaching which we have received from the beginning (2 Thessalonians 2:15), contending for the faith once and for all delivered to the saints (Jude 1:3), and give answer to the hope that is in us (1 Peter 3:15).

This sounds beautiful and may be true but there is Scripture that brings some of it into question:
  • I'm not going to quote all the warning passages about things like falling away but I refer to them hereby
  • NKJ Hebrews 6:1-3 Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, 2 of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. 3 And this we will do if God permits.
  • NKJ 2 Timothy 2:24-26 And a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient, 25 in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth, 26 and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will.
  • NKJ Romans 11:21-22 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.
  • This is just a bit of where we can go in Scripture to see that we are dealing with a perfect Father and Lord who at some point will take issue with our waywardness. What His limits are and what the consequences are has been discussed for millennia. I personally find a balance between His grace & mercy & kindness while also remembering the Fear of God that is related to our godliness.
  • The prodigal son was pushed to his end and chose to return to a loving father. What if he hadn't? What if we take some of the above instruction and wonder if there was a point of no return for him? What if he had died in his disobedient state? I know these are arguments from silence but some of the above references are not silence.


But as I just quoted in another post:

John 15:5-10 "I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 "If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
7 "If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you. 8 "By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples.
9 "As the Father loved Me, I also have loved you; abide (command) in My love. 10 "If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.

I understand there is a tension between Scriptures that can be interpreted to back up what you say and Scriptures like this one. But these tensions must be worked out. They are not contradictions.

Of course we can fall away. That is why, just as you have presented in Scripture above, that we must abide in Christ. But we do not abide in Christ by trying to earn favor from God by doing and saying and feeling and believing all the right things. We abide in Christ through faith, and that is why we remain firmly at the foot of His cross, where He gives Himself to us through Word and Sacrament.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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BNR32FAN

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I don't think so. One of the attributes of the Holy Spirit is love. Those that are indwelt with the Holy Spirit tend to be more loving.

True but Paul indicates in 1 Corinthians 13 that people can have faith without love.
 
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d taylor

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I think the Bible indicates that we must continue in the faith if we expect to be saved. 2 Timothy 4:7, Romans 1:5; 16:26, Hebrews 12:1b-3, Matthew 10:22, Hebrews 3:14, 1 Timothy 1:18-19

None of the verses you are using does.
 
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BNR32FAN

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BNR Nonsense !

The love of God never fails.

Never never never

Glad news for all mankind.

The angel clearly meant to say I bring you Good News that will turn out to actually be bad news that will cause great sorrow for most people. Don't be afraid chances are most of you hearing/reading this should be afraid after all.

Right so answer me this one question please, you teach that we don’t have to repent and believe in this life, we can live in sin all our life blaspheming God, murdering, raping, indulging in every sin and sexual immorality we please and no matter what we do in this life we will eventually be saved, is that correct?

““Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭7‬:‭13‬-‭14‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

“Now the serpent was more crafty than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said to the woman, “Indeed, has God said, ‘You shall not eat from any tree of the garden’?” The woman said to the serpent, “From the fruit of the trees of the garden we may eat; but from the fruit of the tree which is in the middle of the garden, God has said, ‘You shall not eat from it or touch it, or you will die.’ ” The serpent said to the woman, “You surely will not die!”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭3‬:‭1‬-‭4‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Sounds awfully familiar.
 
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BNR32FAN

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None of the verses you are using does.

What about these verses?

“And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds, yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭1‬:‭21‬-‭23‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

“It is a trustworthy statement: For if we died with Him, we will also live with Him; If we endure, we will also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us;”
‭‭2 Timothy‬ ‭2‬:‭11‬-‭12‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.”
‭‭John‬ ‭15‬:‭6‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another. Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many. Because lawlessness is increased, most people’s love will grow cold. But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24‬:‭10‬-‭13‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

“For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them. It has happened to them according to the true proverb, “A dog returns to its own vomit,” and, “A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire.””
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭2‬:‭20‬-‭22‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬
 
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Berserk

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The OP declares its notion of what "saving faith" is without considering the actual meaning of the word "faith!" In both Hebrew ("amunah") and Greek ("pistis") the word translated "faith" means both trust and faithfulness--and that must be the starting point for defining "saving faith."
 
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Ligurian

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John's Gospel is hardly for unbelievers only. It contains substantial and extensive teaching and commands for the believer also.

Absolutely... in fact, it may be argued that since John 13--John 17 are specifically said to and about Jesus' Disciples only, it may be the most believer-based book in the four gospels. Many verses take Matthew for a given and go on from there... acting as though the reader will be fully aware of the Laws of the Kingdom. John is the mature-man's gospel, highly reflective and explanatory.
 
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d taylor

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What about these verses?

“And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds, yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭1‬:‭21‬-‭23‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

“It is a trustworthy statement: For if we died with Him, we will also live with Him; If we endure, we will also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us;”
‭‭2 Timothy‬ ‭2‬:‭11‬-‭12‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.”
‭‭John‬ ‭15‬:‭6‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another. Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many. Because lawlessness is increased, most people’s love will grow cold. But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24‬:‭10‬-‭13‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

“For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them. It has happened to them according to the true proverb, “A dog returns to its own vomit,” and, “A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire.””
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭2‬:‭20‬-‭22‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Nothing about a believer losing their eternal life for falling away in those verses.
It is amazing how many people use the Matthew 24 verse in their belief that works and obedience are how a person receives God's free gift of Eternal Life.
 
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Ligurian

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There is no mention of any of the soils having or retaining eternal life.

The 4th soil is the only one that produces fruit "in/by endurance." There is a play between the wording of the 3rd and 4th soils. The 3rd produces no fruit to completion and the inference is that it does not endure as the 4th soil does.

Making the 4th soil Jesus' Disciples. Only those who continue with Him are His Disciples... they continue by keeping and abiding in the word of the Father given by the Son in John 15. (Matthew 13:13-15 = Isaiah 6:9-13) VS (Matthew 13:10-12, Matthew 13:16-17)

The 2nd soil is shallow, the 3rd soil is caught by the world. They are tested. In tribulation, the 2nd may become apostate, via the word offended.GR The deceitfulness of riches in featured in the Revelation 3:17-19 Laodiceans, who go through the Great Tribulation.
 
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d taylor

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No wonder people are leaving or not coming into the church, with the works based eternal life belief that most of the churches are now proclaiming. They might as well turn to mormonism, jehovah witness, islam, buddhism or other work base religions.
 
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Ligurian

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Nothing about a believer losing their eternal life for falling away in those verses.
It is amazing how many people use the Matthew 24 verse in their belief that works and obedience are how a person receives God's free gift of Eternal Life.

Matthew 24 is a restatement of Matthew 10... this endurance is also taught in the Revelation 3:8-10.

None of which have anything to do with the Pauline Theology stated in your last 6 words. I know that the whole world is striving for collectivism, but the apostleship for the circumcision isn't like the apostleship for the gentiles... so, comparing apples to oranges won't work here.
 
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Ligurian

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No wonder people are leaving or not coming into the church, with the works based eternal life belief that most of the churches are now proclaiming. They might as well turn to mormonism, jehovah witness, islam, buddhism or other work base religions.

Since the First Gospel was entirely works-based... are you saying the religions you're attempting to slander are related to that which Jesus taught the 12 Disciples? You really shouldn't be using the Pauline yardstick on that which came before Paul.
 
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