What is objective evil?

[Forest]

We don't, and we have a way of twisting things (unconsciously) to suit our moral needs. So how can we base a (perceived) moral judgement concerning the objective nature of evil?

I think that because we cannot always perfectly apply or understand a universal moral law in every circumstance, doesn't mean we shouldn't try our best. In my opinion, the teachings of Jesus are not hard to understand or apply.

 

[Danhalen]

But, I believe the key is obeying that which i know (believe) to be true.

Is it fair to say that you believe in objective evil, but can not (yet) know what it is? If that is the case, is it fair to say that you judge your actions by means of moral relativism?

 

[Danhalen]

I think that because we cannot always perfectly apply or understand a universal moral law in every circumstance, doesn't mean we shouldn't try our best.

Which would leave you in a state of relative perfection.

In my opinion, the teachings of Jesus are not hard to understand or apply.

Your opinion is subjective as well.

I hope you see that I am not trying to beat you up, or force you to my opinion. I really just have a hard time trying to understand the objective nature of anything, let alone evil.

 

[SteveR2021]

Is it fair to say that you believe in objective evil, but can not (yet) know what it is? If that is the case, is it fair to say that you judge your actions by means of moral relativism?

You raise good questions. I believe I can know what that objective evil is. If my morality is defined by an objective reality I would say it cannot be moral relativism. I have chosen (for various reasons) to accept the objectivity of the Bible. That is my moral compass. The interpretation can get a bit tricky, but that doesn't mean that the moral system is relative. It merely means that I can make mistakes.

I think God wants us to know His objective will...
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Thanks for the great topic. I could carry this discussion on all night but i must sign off. Hopefully i can check in tomorrow and continue where we left off.

Thanks for your thoughtful questions.

Stephen

 

[Forest]

Which would leave you in a state of relative perfection.

relative perfection = oxymoron

Your opinion is subjective as well.

I hope you see that I am not trying to beat you up, or force you to my opinion. I really just have a hard time trying to understand the objective nature of anything, let alone evil.

My opinion is subjective. However, my opinion only regards applying the universal moral law and that's different from morality itself being relative.

 

[kedaman]

I am a moral relativist, so I don't know. There are things that I consider to always be wrong, but others will not always find the same things always wrong. So, what is it that makes something objectively evil? If we base our idea of objective evil on what God has dictated, we still need to defend that position.

The thing is, unless you know what is evil, you cannot either act on it, so bless you.

 

[Allister]

That statement is kind of like saying that a person should never say never.

They were evil. They were evil because they tortured and killed people. Torturing and killing people is wrong because God says it is wrong.

Torturing and killing people is wrong because society says it is wrong. Pick either moral measure. Your own reaction tells you they were wrong. If you can't call Hitler's actions evil or wrong, then you can't say anything is evil or wrong.

If that is your opinion, then it can't be wrong. Opinions are not wrong or right.

Also, if someone can't say Hitler's actions of torture and killing of adults, children and babies is wrong, then that person doesn't know right from wrong, and according to the laws of the State I live in, that person is legally insane.

What i was trying to say was this:

Hitler/stalin did what they most likley felt was right. BUT the rest of the world disagrees.

Hitler/Stalin did horrible, devistating things that we consider 'evil'. I imagine that in the privesy or his own dwelling with people he loved he was a kind, decent man.

Are we to weigh a person?

respnsible for 6million deaths.........................Loved a person dearly.

the answer is probably the same for most people.


what happens when the line becomes blurred.

is the act of evil 'heavier' than the act of love?

 

[elman]

I think that they believe that they did what they did out of perceived love of country.

I would very much like to find this love part of the brain.

Love of Country does not justify being unloving to people or killing of innocents and almost all of us are aware of that. Some have been taught to ignore their conscience and some over ride what their conscience is telling them. The love part of the brain is not observable, not weighable. That would be like holding a thought in your hand, not possible.

 

[elman]

This makes me wonder. If we were in a situation that involved two people and we could only be loving to one person, but it caused us to be unloving to the other, would it still be evil?

That would depend on all the details wouldn't it? For example it would be alright to be unloving to a rapist of a small child in order to defend the small child.

 

[elman]

Maybe so but a suicide bomber is probably acting in a way that they feel is just and correct, given their circumstances.

Also, The act of killing yourslef and others with a bomb, i find, is unloving but that person probably loves and is loved by others, such as there own families and friends.

A suicide bomber could be a wonderful person to his own family, loving and kind.

The same could probably be said for Stalin and Hitler. I'm not condoning their acts on innocent people but to say that they are unloving and evil is, in my opinion, wrong.

I dont know much about Mother Theresa but she probably commited unloving acts in her life too.

Is it a question of weighing up peoples acts on other people?

Being loved by your mother no matter how evil you are is not the point. I guess a suicide bomber could have been brain washed to the point that he truly believes he was acting for God. I think deep inside he knows that what he is doing is not good.

 

[elman]

I doubt you will find a single person on this entire website that will (willingly) admit that Hitler's actions were not wrong. I think they were some of the worst crimes ever commited. The point is, Hitler and his cronies (including much of Germany) did not think their actions were wrong. Hitler (I believe) thought that he was doing a good thing. Since he thought it was a good thing, were is the objectivity that demonstrates its wrong-ness?

I think most Germans and even Hitler knew that the holocost was a bad thing. They were willing to do it because they had an agenda. I belileve however very few did not realize it was wrong. We all do wrong even as we realize it is wrong. Our doing it does not at all mean we did not know better.

 

[Phred]

Let's take Stalin for a moment. Do you seriously think he didn't know that murder is wrong? He wasn't stupid. What he was able to do was rationalize killing. Just as humanity does every single day. Innocent people were killed by the thousands in Iraq. It's justified in the minds of some because their deaths were an inevitable part of removing a greater evil. More to the point, removal of a direct threat to the US. Killing is justified when it takes place in the act of self-preservation. Or is it?

Stalin saw his power as being more valuable than others lives. It's not that he thought killing was good, it's that he saw it as necessary.

At best religion can give us values to help us make our decisions. Nothing is "evil" in and of itself. Evil is a perception. Religion can help us frame our perceptions. Beyond this, people are only searching for justification and rationalization of their feelings and decisions. Just like Stalin...

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[Corran]

Nothing is "evil" in and of itself. Evil is a perception.

I agree.

 

[Thirst_For_Knowledge]

Love of Country does not justify being unloving to people or killing of innocents and almost all of us are aware of that. Some have been taught to ignore their conscience and some over ride what their conscience is telling them. The love part of the brain is not observable, not weighable. That would be like holding a thought in your hand, not possible.

Tell that to everyone who is in the U.S. military.

 

[Thirst_For_Knowledge]

That would depend on all the details wouldn't it? For example it would be alright to be unloving to a rapist of a small child in order to defend the small child.

Why is that? I would agree with you, but coming from a religious standpoint, wouldn't be better if I did nothing to help the child, because then I wouldn't be comitting sin?

 

[elman]

Quote:
Originally Posted by: Phred




Nothing is "evil" in and of itself. Evil is a perception.




I agree."

So the holocost was not evil. it was just our stupid perception that it was? So raping a small child is not evil or torturing a small child to death is not evil, just our silly moral perception?

 

[elman]

Why is that? I would agree with you, but coming from a religious standpoint, wouldn't be better if I did nothing to help the child, because then I wouldn't be comitting sin?

No the sin would be in doing nothing.

 

[elman]

Tell that to everyone who is in the U.S. military.

Everyone in the US military is not about killing innocent people. Unlike the suicide bombers that is not their mission or purpose.

 

[Thirst_For_Knowledge]

No the sin would be in doing nothing.

Where in the bible does it say that you would have to intervene? Also, what if I have to kill this man? Would god think this sin was okay because it helps some greater good?

Do we actually know any of these answers, or is it all speculation?

 

[Thirst_For_Knowledge]

Everyone in the US military is not about killing innocent people. Unlike the suicide bombers that is not their mission or purpose.

That isn't what you said though. You said this

Love of Country does not justify being unloving to people or killing of innocents and almost all of us are aware of that.

What exactly is the U.S. Military doing then? They are being unloving to people and killing innocents, all for the love of some country.