What is objective evil?

[Danhalen]

I am a moral relativist, so I don't know. There are things that I consider to always be wrong, but others will not always find the same things always wrong. So, what is it that makes something objectively evil? If we base our idea of objective evil on what God has dictated, we still need to defend that position.

 

[elman]

I am a moral relativist, so I don't know. There are things that I consider to always be wrong, but others will not always find the same things always wrong. So, what is it that makes something objectively evil? If we base our idea of objective evil on what God has dictated, we still need to defend that position.

I don't think God has dictated what is objective evil. I think you are born with that knowledge. Objective evil is to be unloving.

 

[Danhalen]

I don't think God has dictated what is objective evil. I think you are born with that knowledge.

How are we born with that knowledge?

Objective evil is to be unloving.

What does it mean to be unloving? Are there some cases of "unloving" that could be misconstrued? By what do you base this objectivity?

 

[elman]

How are we born with that knowledge?

What does it mean to be unloving? Are there some cases of "unloving" that could be misconstrued? By what do you base this objectivity?

It is part of all humans to know that we should love and not kill each other. On almost every case, you and I would agree on what was loving and what was not. There would be very little difference of opinion. A suicide bomber is probably not being loving. Hitler and Stalin were not loving people. Mother Theresa was.

 

[Danhalen]

It is part of all humans to know that we should love and not kill each other. On almost every case, you and I would agree on what was loving and what was not. There would be very little difference of opinion. A suicide bomber is probably not being loving. Hitler and Stalin were not loving people. Mother Theresa was.

I do in fact agree with the examples you have provided. However, I do not think that the suicide bomber, Hitler, or Stalin would agree with us.

I do not understand why we agree though. Where does this inate knowledge come from?

 

[elman]

I do in fact agree with the examples you have provided. However, I do not think that the suicide bomber, Hitler, or Stalin would agree with us.

I do not understand why we agree though. Where does this inate knowledge come from?

I actually think the suicide bomber, Hitler and Stalin would agree with us in the abstract most of the time on what was loving or not, but they chose to be unloving for their own reasons. I of course do not know why we mostly agree on what is loving or what is not. I belileve it is in the way we are created. Another way of saying it perhaps is that we are all born with those instincts like animals are born with their instincts that are so different from ours. In both cases we can be trained to do things different that our instincts would lead us to do.

 

[Danhalen]

I actually think the suicide bomber, Hitler and Stalin would agree with us in the abstract most of the time on what was loving or not, but they chose to be unloving for their own reasons.

I think that they believe that they did what they did out of perceived love of country.

I of course do not know why we mostly agree on what is loving or what is not. I belileve it is in the way we are created. Another way of saying it perhaps is that we are all born with those instincts like animals are born with their instincts that are so different from ours. In both cases we can be trained to do things different that our instincts would lead us to do.

I would very much like to find this love part of the brain.

 

[Thirst_For_Knowledge]

I actually think the suicide bomber, Hitler and Stalin would agree with us in the abstract most of the time on what was loving or not, but they chose to be unloving for their own reasons. I of course do not know why we mostly agree on what is loving or what is not. I belileve it is in the way we are created. Another way of saying it perhaps is that we are all born with those instincts like animals are born with their instincts that are so different from ours. In both cases we can be trained to do things different that our instincts would lead us to do.

This makes me wonder. If we were in a situation that involved two people and we could only be loving to one person, but it caused us to be unloving to the other, would it still be evil?

 

[Allister]

A suicide bomber is probably not being loving

Maybe so but a suicide bomber is probably acting in a way that they feel is just and correct, given their circumstances.

Also, The act of killing yourslef and others with a bomb, i find, is unloving but that person probably loves and is loved by others, such as there own families and friends.

A suicide bomber could be a wonderful person to his own family, loving and kind.

The same could probably be said for Stalin and Hitler. I'm not condoning their acts on innocent people but to say that they are unloving and evil is, in my opinion, wrong.

I dont know much about Mother Theresa but she probably commited unloving acts in her life too.

Is it a question of weighing up peoples acts on other people?

 

[Forest]

The same could probably be said for Stalin and Hitler. I'm not condoning their acts on innocent people but to say that they are unloving and evil is, in my opinion, wrong.

That statement is kind of like saying that a person should never say never.

They were evil. They were evil because they tortured and killed people. Torturing and killing people is wrong because God says it is wrong.

Torturing and killing people is wrong because society says it is wrong. Pick either moral measure. Your own reaction tells you they were wrong. If you can't call Hitler's actions evil or wrong, then you can't say anything is evil or wrong.

If that is your opinion, then it can't be wrong. Opinions are not wrong or right.

Also, if someone can't say Hitler's actions of torture and killing of adults, children and babies is wrong, then that person doesn't know right from wrong, and according to the laws of the State I live in, that person is legally insane.

 

[Danhalen]

Also, if someone can't say Hitler's actions of torture and killing of adults, children and babies is wrong, then that person doesn't know right from wrong, and according to the laws of the State I live in, that person is legally insane.

I doubt you will find a single person on this entire website that will (willingly) admit that Hitler's actions were not wrong. I think they were some of the worst crimes ever commited. The point is, Hitler and his cronies (including much of Germany) did not think their actions were wrong. Hitler (I believe) thought that he was doing a good thing. Since he thought it was a good thing, were is the objectivity that demonstrates its wrong-ness?

 

[Forest]

.....were is the objectivity that demonstrates its wrong-ness?

The teachings of Jesus.

 

[Danhalen]

The teachings of Jesus.

I am asking you to qualify that statement.

 

[Forest]

I am asking you to qualify that statement.

I'm not sure what you mean.

Jesus was/is God.
Therefore, Jesus had/has the right to give universal morals.

 

[jesusfreak3786]

I would very much like to find this love part of the brain.

PM me, I will help if I can, if not, we can have a nice conversation.

 

[Danhalen]

I'm not sure what you mean.

Jesus was/is God.
Therefore, Jesus had/has the right to give universal morals.

We don't, and we have a way of twisting things (unconsciously) to suit our moral needs. So how can we base a (perceived) moral judgement concerning the objective nature of evil?

 

[SteveR2021]

I would say that objective evil is that which God defines as evil.

I think the ultimate question is: who defines evil? Humans are all on the same 'playing field'. We can come up with our own definitions, but these by nature are subjective definitions.

God by definition (if for the moment we can assume He exists) is outside of our system...in fact, those who believe in God generally believe that is the creator of material existence (how that happened is subject to debate)...if He is the creator it would make most sense to find out if from Him if there is such a thing as evil. If God has not defined evil, then I would argue that there can be no such thing as objective evil. Of course, this means that if there is no God then there can be no objective evil...only what people agree to call evil.

However if God is real and the creator then we must find out from Him if there is such a thing as evil.

Is that a fair argument?
-------------------------------------------

As a Christian, I believe that objective evil is doing that which is contrary to God's will. As a Christian I believe God's will is found in the Bible.

 

[Danhalen]

I would say that objective evil is that which God defines as evil.

I would agree on the condition that evil exists and is objective. The problem is, we are subjective by our very nature, so even if there is such a thing as objective evil, how can we know it?

However if God is real and the creator then we must find out from Him if there is such a thing as evil.

Is that a fair argument?

It's more of a philosophical discussion than argument. You raise more questions than answer them. I find that to be a good thing. Objectively good!

As a Christian, I believe that objective evil is doing that which is contrary to God's will. As a Christian I believe God's will is found in the Bible.

I think this is fair, but not all Christians will agree that the bible is the answer to all of lifes problems. Again, we run into the subjectivity of the human mind when dealing with our perceptions.

 

[SteveR2021]

The problem is, we are subjective by our very nature, so even if there is such a thing as objective evil, how can we know it?

You raise an excellent point...one that is still debated in Christendom. And yet, there is wide ranging consensus on most (not all) issues. Ultimately, a consensus of opinion on interpretation becomes necessary because (as you say) none of us are able to be completely objective. One of the interesting things about the New Testament (as opposed to the Old Testament or Old Covenant) is that it allows for a morality informed by conscience. While we are expected to adhere to the strict law as it is presented in the Old Testament, we are told that if we do anything that we 'think' is wrong we are acting immorally. Jesus also talked a great deal about motives.

But, you initial point about discerning God's will is an excellent one debated in theological seminaries everywhere. I think it is encouraging to not the general consensus on most issues...that of course does not help on some issues - for those i think people must turn to the subjective conscience.

Because I believe God is real and active in the world, i believe that His will can be discovered. I pray to God regularly and ask Him for wisdom. I would think that God would want us to discover His true and objective will - its not meant to be a mystery. But, I believe the key is obeying that which i know (believe) to be true.

 

[wowbagger]

I would say that objective evil is that which God defines as evil.

I think the ultimate question is: who defines evil? Humans are all on the same 'playing field'. We can come up with our own definitions, but these by nature are subjective definitions.

God by definition (if for the moment we can assume He exists) is outside of our system...in fact, those who believe in God generally believe that is the creator of material existence (how that happened is subject to debate)...if He is the creator it would make most sense to find out if from Him if there is such a thing as evil. If God has not defined evil, then I would argue that there can be no such thing as objective evil. Of course, this means that if there is no God then there can be no objective evil...only what people agree to call evil.

However if God is real and the creator then we must find out from Him if there is such a thing as evil.

Is that a fair argument?
-------------------------------------------

As a Christian, I believe that objective evil is doing that which is contrary to God's will. As a Christian I believe God's will is found in the Bible.

So how do you figure out what is evil then? Does God give a list of objectively evil things?

We all know sometimes its OK to steal, lie, or even kill if the situation warrants. So how can anyone know what God is thinks is objectively evil if he's so quiet about it today?