What IS MATT 16:18 REALLY TEACHING ?

[JulieB67]

ell us all where scripture tells us that the Bible "teaches all that he taught them"

We learn from the scriptures, it's the only way to establish our faith in Christ, etc. A person can sit on a pew and entire lifetime listening to a few words surrounded by a personal sermon that has nothing to do with the word of God and come away only being fed milk.

Matthew 28:19 "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:"

Matthew 28:20 "Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world." Amen."

II Timothy 3:16 "All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:"

II Timothy 3:17 "That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works."

Furnished in the Greek -exartizo- to finish out (time) to equip fully
(a teacher)-accomplish, thoroughly furnish.

So yes, the word/scriptures are our teacher and Paul states it is more than sufficient.

 

[ozso]

There are of course these traditions:

Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ. Colossians 2:8

And those are the ones that can't be found in scripture. Where appealing to scripture is discouraged, mocked and frowned upon.

 

[ozso]

This question has already been answered.

Where did concretecamper answer the question? I've been scrolling up and down looking for it but I don't see the post.

 

[Ain't Zwinglian]

I would also be interested to hear the views of our most pious Lutheran friend @Ain't Zwinglian on this issue.

Not sure what is going on here.

 

[WilliamC]

I'm not too good at reading between the lines. You forgot to quote the part of scripture that says the Bible contains all that is needed for Salvation.

That is a loaded statement.
However, there is enough in the written word to let the reader know that what one needs to understand about salvation is revealed.
There is 2 Tim. 3:15-17- the Holy Scriptures make one wise unto salvation... this was of course Paul's doctrine taught 3:10,14
Paul taught that salvation was obtained by Jesus. I Thess.5:9 That means, not through an institution.
Paul taught that we are complete through Jesus. Col. 2:10
Paul told us that it was our own responsibility to work out, or complete our own salvation. Phill.2:12 Free will involved here. No man forces another.
Paul also told us that what he preached and taught, was not derived from any human source, but what Jesus had taught. Gal.1:11.
There was no further source. Gal. 1:7
Jesus stated that what He taught had nothing in secret held back to be revealed later. Jn.18:20 These are the same teaching he taught the disciples.
Jesus promised that when He left, He would give the Holy Spirit...who would teach all things...whatever He had previously said or taught and bring it to their remembrance. Jn.14:26
We have those teachings of Jesus right in front of our faces to learn from. The plan of salvation is proficiently laid out for all to understand.
John told us that we have the unction from the Spirit and we know all things. IJohn2:20
We must be truly willing to let the Holy Spirit lead, and accept all that we discover from the writings.
The traditions that Paul, or any others taught was indeed these teaching of Christ, and what He had done. The great commission was to confirm the word. Mk. 16:20, the teachings of Jesus.
We have these words to see for ourselves what they say.
No one needs someone else trying to tell them what to believe...they are hindering the work of the Holy Spirit by doing so.
Jesus was not foolish enough to trust in what men say around His words...that's why the Holy Spirit in the one to bring about understanding of His words already spoken.
Not everyone is of the same receptive level of understanding , but when a person is willing to be reached, accept the truth more fully, then the Holy Spirit will do so. If the are not ready to accept, then it will be held back from them. If they are not willing to budge in their acceptance of truth...God will cause the to believe a lie.IIThes.2:11
The Bible has plenty to teach us about salvation.. but the Bible cant verbally speak to us..it must be gleaned to understand. Line upon line..precept upon precept...here a little.. there a little...

 

[concretecamper]

We learn from the scriptures,

Of course

it's the only way to establish our faith in Christ, etc

That is YOUR choice and man made idea. That's fine, just don't make the rest of of follow it.

 

[concretecamper]

That is a loaded statement.
However, there is enough in the written word to let the reader know that what one needs to understand about salvation is revealed.
There is 2 Tim. 3:15-17- the Holy Scriptures make one wise unto salvation... this was of course Paul's doctrine taught 3:10,14
Paul taught that salvation was obtained by Jesus. I Thess.5:9 That means, not through an institution.
Paul taught that we are complete through Jesus. Col. 2:10
Paul told us that it was our own responsibility to work out, or complete our own salvation. Phill.2:12 Free will involved here. No man forces another.
Paul also told us that what he preached and taught, was not derived from any human source, but what Jesus had taught. Gal.1:11.
There was no further source. Gal. 1:7
Jesus stated that what He taught had nothing in secret held back to be revealed later. Jn.18:20 These are the same teaching he taught the disciples.
Jesus promised that when He left, He would give the Holy Spirit...who would teach all things...whatever He had previously said or taught and bring it to their remembrance. Jn.14:26
We have those teachings of Jesus right in front of our faces to learn from. The plan of salvation is proficiently laid out for all to understand.
John told us that we have the unction from the Spirit and we know all things. IJohn2:20
We must be truly willing to let the Holy Spirit lead, and accept all that we discover from the writings.
The traditions that Paul, or any others taught was indeed these teaching of Christ, and what He had done. The great commission was to confirm the word. Mk. 16:20, the teachings of Jesus.
We have these words to see for ourselves what they say.
No one needs someone else trying to tell them what to believe...they are hindering the work of the Holy Spirit by doing so.
Jesus was not foolish enough to trust in what men say around His words...that's why the Holy Spirit in the one to bring about understanding of His words already spoken.
Not everyone is of the same receptive level of understanding , but when a person is willing to be reached, accept the truth more fully, then the Holy Spirit will do so. If the are not ready to accept, then it will be held back from them. If they are not willing to budge in their acceptance of truth...God will cause the to believe a lie.IIThes.2:11
The Bible has plenty to teach us about salvation.. but the Bible cant verbally speak to us..it must be gleaned to understand. Line upon line..precept upon precept...here a little.. there a little...

Thank you for your post. However, all you did was show that scripture is profitable.

You omitted the part of scripture where it tells us that it is all the Christian needs for salvation.

 

[concretecamper]

II Timothy 3:17 "That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works."

Paul is referencing the Tanakh, not the Bible. The Tanakh was "all scripture" when 2 Tim was written.

By using 2 Tim 3:16-17, you are arguing against the need of the New Testament Books.

 

[The Liturgist]

Now I praise you, brethren, that you remember me in all things and keep the traditions just as I delivered them to you. 1 Corinthians 11:2

Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle. 2 Thessalonians 2:15

But we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you withdraw from every brother who walks disorderly and not according to the tradition which he received from us. 2 Thessalonians 3:6

What are these traditions Paul set forth that are not found in Paul's epistles?

I answered this question already. Did you miss the answer?

 

[JulieB67]

That is YOUR choice and man made idea.

That's pretty funny since most of your doctrines you believe in are man made/traditions of men.

I at least, accept Paul's words since he was a chosen vessel himself.

Romans 10:16 "But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, "Lord, who hath believed our report?"

Romans 10:17 "So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God."

Are you suggesting Paul is in error in stating that's how faith comes?

Since Paul was a chosen vessel by God whatever he or the disciples/apostles speak can be considered the Word of God unless he was giving his own advice which he certainly did many times concerning things.

You omitted the part of scripture where it tells us that it is all the Christian needs for salvation.

You seem to keep deliberately misunderstanding. The scriptures are what leads a person on the path to salvation. It's still up to the person but it's all there. And no one is saved until the end of their lives or the end of this world. Anyone can fall away at any time. That's why Paul states-


Hebrews 12:1 "Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,"


II Timothy 4:7 "I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:"

Paul is referencing the Tanakh, not the Bible. The Tanakh was "all scripture" when 2 Tim was written.

By using 2 Tim 3:16-17, you are arguing against the need of the New Testament Books.

We'll never understand the new if we don't have the old. The old brings us to the new. When Paul states "wise unto salvation" A wise person can see that Christ fulfilled the prophecies brought by the prophets, etc. That's why he states,

Ephesians 2:20 "And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief corner stone;"

That's the only way we can learn today. We weren't privy to any of these teachings but we have the old and we have the letters establishing the NT.

You can keep arguing that the ministry that's set forth by the disciples/apostles in the letters is not fully adequate but I'll take my chances over putting my trust in a church that has become so far removed from what the actual letters tells us- not even recognizing the " significance" of the veil being rent from top to bottom to the holy of holies.

 

[ozso]

I answered this question already. Did you miss the answer?

You mean this #368?. You said a lot about liturgy aka worship as usual and made some vague references. Then you alluded to the oral tradition, which I've heard many times from Catholics before, which doesn't make any sense really. Because eventually it would been written down. I've asked others in the past if there's some secret whispered "pass it down" sort of system and was told no. It's pretty impossible to practice oral traditions that can't be read or explained. I asked for an explanation for what these never written oral traditions from St. Paul are, but I've never received a satisfactory answer. So as of now it comes off as smoke and mirrors for tradition that was started centuries after Paul and the Apostolic Fathers. And I suspect it was a result of converted pagans incorporating paganistic practices into Christianity, considering how foreign it is to what's written in scripture and to the writings of the earliest church fathers. I figure that's why when I ask for citation from Clement, Ignatius, Tertullian, Justin Martyr, Origen, Polycarp I either get static or deflective dialog.

 

[ozso]

Of course

That is YOUR choice and man made idea. That's fine, just don't make the rest of of follow it.

Can you counter the man made idea by stating what God's idea is? Or is it just being called man made because it's not Roman Catholic dogma?

 

[concretecamper]

You seem to keep deliberately misunderstanding.

It is pretty simple. A poster said that Bible is all that is needed for salvation. I simply asked where does the Bible teach that.

I've gotten paragraphs of gobble-dy-gook by you and others that don't answer my challenge.

I agree Scripture is needed. I agree Scripture is profitable. I agree Scripture is the Written Word of God. So please don't post pages of scripture that affirms these things yet fails to answer my question

 

[concretecamper]

Can you counter the man made idea by stating what God's idea is? Or is it just being called man made because it's not Roman Catholic dogma?

I'm calling it man made because the idea you and others are advancing isn't found in Scripture.

 

[Valletta]

There's nothing in scripture which indicates that God wants Christians to make a huge deal out of Mary in any way.

There is enormous amount of importance put on Mary in Scripture, she is an essential part of God's plan of salvation. To make such a claim seems far from reality to me, but you are absolutely entitled to your personal interpretation of Holy Scripture. But "nothing?" Mary was there at the conception of Jesus, she was there when Jesus was born. Mary was there at the foot of the cross. The usage of "woman" by Jesus at the wedding at Cana in addressing his mother is not a practice in Jewish culture, it was a reference back to Genesis where God used "woman" to refer to Eve. You see both Eve and Mary came into the world without sin, Eve sinned and Mary did not. Mary is particularly blessed, even more than she was because she was the mother of God, because she did God's will and did not sin. After Mary brought up the fact there was no more wine Jesus said His time had not yet come. Yet he performed this miracle because his mother requested it. Not important? As I have explained before, in the Davidic kingdom the mother of the king, starting with Solomon, is the queen. The queen makes requests of the king, just as was done at Cana. I don't understand how people can say yes those other mothers of kings in the Davidic kingdom were queens, but Mary does not deserve the title. An in depth understanding of Revelation, where there are layered meanings, should bring one to the conclusion that Mary is the PRIMARY woman being spoken of. Israel is a secondary meaning. A mother, a real woman, wears clothes, and a human QUEEN wears a crown. While there are twelve Apostles, there were twelve tribes of Israel, I think there is also a reference to Israel. Others may disagree. She is standing on the moon, which reflects the light of the sun, as Mary reflects or magnifies the light or Our Lord:

Luke 1:46-55 46 And Mary said,

Mary’s Song of Praise​

“My soul magnifies the Lord,
47 and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior,
48 for he has regarded the low estate of his handmaiden.
For behold, henceforth all generations will call me blessed;
49 for he who is mighty has done great things for me,
and holy is his name.
50 And his mercy is on those who fear him
from generation to generation.
51 He has shown strength with his arm,
he has scattered the proud in the imagination of their hearts,
52 he has put down the mighty from their thrones,
and exalted those of low degree;
53 he has filled the hungry with good things,
and the rich he has sent empty away.
54 He has helped his servant Israel,
in remembrance of his mercy,
55 as he spoke to our fathers,
to Abraham and to his posterity for ever.”[a] RSVCE

 

[WilliamC]

Thank you for your post. However, all you did was show that scripture is profitable.

You omitted the part of scripture where it tells us that it is all the Christian needs for salvation.

all the Christian needs for salvation is Jesus. Paul determined that his focus in teaching the gospel was Christ crucified, His sacrifice. That has been the plan of salvation since before the fall. The Scriptures reveal the plan in detail, and how we are to respond. However nothing says that we cant also learn from each others experiences in this walk of life. But no other person is responsible for yours or my salvation...nor an organization. You must kick against the pricks to pit Christ against an organization for salvation. His Word is truth, and He revealed His Word to us with nothing held back. This is not a popularity contest...this is ALL about what Christ did, and is doing to save mankind, and we cant add one thing to the plan He laid out to save mankind. Anyone who says different has another gospel..which there is no other. It is clear from your response that you want to believe what mere fallible men make up over what Christ stated. That is your choice..but for me and my house,we will serve the Lord.

 

[JulieB67]

t is pretty simple. A poster said that Bible is all that is needed for salvation. I simply asked where does the Bible teach that.

The information that's in the Bible is all that's needed to set a person on the path to salvation. They don't need anything other than what the prophets, apostles laid out. To say otherwise means you'd rather put your salvation needs into the hands of men that apparently are more about their own traditions than the traditions brought forth in the bible.

I'm calling it man made because the idea you and others are advancing isn't found in Scripture.

It's Paul's words that you are disagreeing with, not mine.

Romans 10:17 "So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God."

And again, that's quite funny since most of your traditions are not found in Scripture.

 

[concretecamper]

The information that's in the Bible is all that's needed to set a person on the path to salvation.

Where does the Bible teach that?

It's Paul's words that you are disagreeing with, not mine.

Romans 10:17 "So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God."

Paul isn't saying here that the Bible is all that is needed. Try again.

And again, that's quite funny since most of your traditions are not found in Scripture.

When I get you to finally admit that what is being debated here (That the Bible is the only thing needed for salvation) is man made doctrine, we can than go on to another topic of your choice

 

[concretecamper]

all the Christian needs for salvation is Jesus

Finally something that is taught by the Bible

 

[ozso]

I'm calling it man made because the idea you and others are advancing isn't found in Scripture.

I asked you what Jesus, John and Paul left out in their writings that details what's necessary for salvation. If they didn't leave anything out, then the only conclusion is what a person needs to know about how to become saved is contained within the Bible.