What IS MATT 16:18 REALLY TEACHING ?

[concretecamper]

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[concretecamper]

Now how do you know that Jesus told us to listen to the Holy Spirit? Ah yes, scripture.

Of course, Scripture is the written Word of God.

So did the Holy Spirit tell you that water Baptism is a requirement for Salvation or did the Holy Spirit tell you water Baptism isn't required.

 

[WilliamC]

Some Christians say water Baptism is required for salvation based on Scripture and the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

I have heard that before. Attended a church that pushed this.

Some Christians say that water Baptism is not required for Salvation based on Scripture and the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

I have heard this before as well.

As you can see, your statement lacks application in reality.

That's your opinion.
Many faiths are at different places in their understanding. This takes time and willingness to let the Spirit teach.There are Passages of Scripture that make it appear that the very act of baptism saves...even sounding as to mean such. Others show that it is merely symbolic,a figure of a clear conscience in the accepting of Christs death burial and resurrection that guarantees salvation. We are ever learning, and recovery of truth takes time. It can become confusing because if ones build a belief without considering all the facts, it can cause conflicts within Scripture. We must reconcile Scripture. Line up on line, precept upon precept, here a little there a little..
Many passage say we are saved by faith, or by believing , or by grace Jn 3:16;Eph,2:8-9;Tit.3:5 etc.. some by baptism, or cleansed by washing of the word. What does one do with this? Is there a conflict? I don't think so. All the statements above are correct as they find their understanding by pointing to Christ.. who only saves. We believe it is only Him who saves ,and we put our faith in Him as He showed power over death, we believe that when He says He will forgive and cleanse us He will make good on His promise as He has shown that He is a guarantee of a better Covenant... "I will do".. "I will make a better Covenant".. "I will be their God, and they my people" Ex. 34:10; Jer.33:31-34; Heb.8:6-13. He made the way, and we have to believe all that He said He will do...He will deliver.
Again, not every Christian faith is at the same place, and everyone has to be fully persuaded in his own mind. But that persuasion is not the friendly persuasion (my way or else) that has been seen throughout history, particularly by one faction.

Something else is needed.

I can lead a horse to water, but I can't make it drink.

I stated what i believe is needed... when a person is willing to let the Spirit lead (a faction that forces belief is not the Spirit) then recovery of truth begins. I have seen this operation in my life. My grandfather was a pentecostal preacher, my grandparents catholic, and presbyterians as well a Methodists and even a relative who was sda. I didn't quite understand what to believe at the time (60 years ago). So I stepped aside from all of it and tried it my own way. I visited many Churches for several years, was taught extensively by many varying church leaders, and even attended several Christian Universities in the process. I learned a lot, and heard a lot of varying beliefs. But it wasn't until I earnestly prayed to God to help me find real truth in the Scriptures, and accept what I saw, that I believe good understanding started to come. There is much to be learned by comparing different faiths, but nothing compared to what they all supposedly had in common...the Scriptures.
There is probably nothing you can tell me that I haven't heard of before and studied. I can tell you one thing...I do not put much stock in what any man says to me..they are not the Spirit. I have been fooled before. We are all transformed by the renewing of our minds....not someone else trying to forcibly renew our minds to see it their way. We must think for ourselves. No one is going to stand by us in the judgement except Jesus.
If you are trying to lead a horse to water..as you say.. then you are not letting the Spirit do His job. And if you are trying to force your opinions on someone else...make them drink... then you are trying to force your beliefs on someone else. We can learn a lot from each other, but we must be open to truth and not believe we know it all....no one does except God. Blessings!

 

[JulieB67]

Speaking of the New Testament, I can't think of a single passage that tells me there should be 27 books and not 26 or 28. I cant think of a single passage that tells me the Gospel of Matthew is inspired text. I can't think of a single passage that tells us there should be only 4 Gospels and not 5.

Curious, isn't it?

If you're getting around to the argument that the Catholic Church picked out the books to include -led by the Holy Spirit and everyone accepted them -meaning they are to be believed from here on out.-I would claim you're wrong. Many can look at books like Judith and Tobit, etc and see that they should not be included. I'm not stating we shouldn't read them, just not consider them inspired by the Holy Spirit. Yes, we have the books, God can use whomever he will to see things out. But then it's up to us to search and seek out the scriptures, etc.

But that's a very weak argument that the RCC is led by the Holy Spirit at all times. Especially since they are led to drive themselves farther away from what's written, especially now. Maybe someone was led by the Holy Spirit at one time with good intentions but if you fall off the path and make up your own stuff along the way you're on your own.

If that's not the point you're making, I'll let you all continue...

Julie very obviously meant the Roman Catholic Church.

Yes

 

[ozso]

Good question.

Speaking of the New Testament, I can't think of a single passage that tells me there should be 27 books and not 26 or 28. I cant think of a single passage that tells me the Gospel of Matthew is inspired text. I can't think of a single passage that tells us there should be only 4 Gospels and not 5.

Curious, isn't it?

And the conclusion is that since the Catholic Church originally established the parameters for what books and letters consist of the New Testament through the guidance of the Holy Spirit, then unscriptural dogma and practices of Catholocism must have also come through the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

 

[JulieB67]

And the conclusion is that since the Catholic Church originally established the parameters for what books and letters consist of the New Testament through the guidance of the Holy Spirit, then unscriptural dogma and practices of Catholocism must have also come through the guidance of Holy Spirit.

Yep, that's the conclusion. I fell into this trap again lol

 

[JulieB67]

We are all transformed by the renewing of our minds....not someone else trying to forcibly renew our minds to see it their way. We must think for ourselves. No one is going to stand by us in the judgement except Jesus.

Excellent point William.

 

[concretecamper]

If you're getting around to the argument that the Catholic Church picked out the books to include -led by the Holy Spirit and everyone accepted them -meaning they are to be believed from here on out.-I would claim you're wrong. Many can look at books like Judith and Tobit, etc and see that they should not be included. I'm not stating we shouldn't read them, just not consider them inspired by the Holy Spirit. Yes, we have the books, God can use whomever he will to see things out. But then it's up to us to search and seek out the scriptures, etc.

But that's a very weak argument that the RCC is led by the Holy Spirit at all times. Especially since they are led to drive themselves farther away from what's written, especially now. Maybe someone was led by the Holy Spirit at one time with good intentions but if you fall off the path and make up your own stuff along the way you're on your own.

If that's not the point you're making, I'll let you all continue...

Yes

And the conclusion is that since the Catholic Church originally established the parameters for what books and letters consist of the New Testament through the guidance of the Holy Spirit, then unscriptural dogma and practices of Catholocism must have also come through the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

Not at all. Leave The Church out of the discussion.

Using Scripture only:

1. Tell us that there should be 27 books in the NT
2. Tell us that there should only be 4 Gospels
3. Tell us where it says Matthew is inspired text

You guys are having a difficult time answering my questions using just Scripture

 

[ozso]

Yep, that's the conclusion. I fell into this trap again lol

By now I usually know where things are headed, but I try to get the other person to just say it. Put another way certain matters often have to be dragged out of the person.

 

[concretecamper]

We must think for ourselves

Someone told Eve that in the book of Genesis

 

[ozso]

Not at all. Leave The Church out of the discussion.

Using Scripture only:

1. Tell us that there should be 27 books in the NT
2. Tell us that there should only be 4 Gospels
3. Tell us where it says Matthew is inspired text

You guys are having a difficult time answering my questions using just Scripture

That takes us back to guidance from the Holy Spirit.

 

[ozso]

Of course, Scripture is the written Word of God.

So did the Holy Spirit tell you that water Baptism is a requirement for Salvation or did the Holy Spirit tell you water Baptism isn't required.

That's irrelevant. It's required because Jesus commanded it. The primary factor is what God wants us to do. What we receive or don't receive from what God wants is a secondary consideration.

 

[ozso]

Someone told Eve that in the book of Genesis

Perhaps. Or perhaps Eve let him do her thinking for her.

 

[concretecamper]

That's irrelevant. It's required because Jesus commanded it. The primary factor is what God wants us to do. What we receive or don't receive from what God wants is a secondary consideration.

Many who claim to be led by the Holy Spirit claim Jesus didn't command water Baptism. So are you sure you are the one led by the Holy Spirit, or are they led by the Holy Spirit and you are being deceived?

 

[Guojing]

That's irrelevant. It's required because Jesus commanded it. The primary factor is what God wants us to do. What we receive or don't receive from what God wants is a secondary consideration.

What about Genesis 6:14, why don't you obey God there?

 

[ozso]

Many who claim to be led by the Holy Spirit claim Jesus didn't command water Baptism. So are you sure you are the one led by the Holy Spirit, or are they led by the Holy Spirit and you are being deceived?

Rather than get into a discussion about baptism, how about getting to what your point is?

Now you said to leave the Church out of it.

And you ruled out going by guidance from the Holy Spirit.

And you ruled out thinking for yourself.

So I'm at a loss as to how to answer the question since you've eliminated those things.

So I give up and I'm asking you for the answer to your question.

 

[The Liturgist]

Rather than get into a discussion about baptism, how about getting to what your point is?

Now you said to leave the Church out of it.

And you ruled out going by guidance from the Holy Spirit.

And you ruled out thinking for yourself.

So I'm at a loss as to how to answer the question since you've eliminated those things.

So I give up and I'm asking you for the answer to your question.

I myself am also curious on these points, although an honest and correct answer would be to refer to Holy Tradition, however, among Orthodox Christians we do not discourage critical thinking, since much of our evangelism has involved asking people to use their faculty for independent tought to evaluate what we regard as the Apostolic kerygma. What is more, the specifics of how baptism is to be performed is provided in some of the oldest surviving documents we have, such as in church orders such as the Apostolic Constitutions and Didache (both of which, not unlike Protestant books of church order, such as the United Methodist Book of Discipline, or the Church of Scotland Book of Common Order, contain varying amounts of liturgical material), and the oldest surviving liturgical service books in our possession, including the very oldest, the Euchologion of St. Sarapion of Thmuis.

 

[ozso]

What about Genesis 6:14, why don't you obey God there?

Because God only told Noah to build an ark. Just like God only told Abraham to sacrifice his son. Just like God only told Moses to speak to a rock to get water. Just like God only told Solomon to build a temple. Just like God only told Jonah to go to Nineveh.

 

[Guojing]

Because God only told Noah to build an ark. Just like God only told Abraham to sacrifice his son. Just like God only told Moses to speak to a rock to get water. Just like God only told Solomon to build a temple. Just like God only told Jonah to go to Nineveh.

So its not just enough to say Jesus commanded water baptism.

You have to believe that Jesus also commanded you to be water baptized.

Glad you clarified.

 

[WilliamC]

Someone told Eve that in the book of Genesis

Is that right?
Please show us in Genesis 3,where she was told... "we must think for ourselves" ?