What IS MATT 16:18 REALLY TEACHING ?

[One God and Father of All]

I'm not too good at reading between the lines. You forgot to quote the part of scripture that says the Bible contains all that is needed for Salvation.

It doesn't say it doesn't.

 

[ozso]

What it does not say is that it itself contains all that is required for salvation; on the contrary such an extreme Nuda Scriptura position is contrary to several verses I have posted.

So what did Jesus, Paul and John leave out?

 

[concretecamper]

It doesn't say it doesn't.

Thank you for proving it is a Man Made doctrine.

 

[ozso]

It doesn't say it doesn't.

The "scripture doesn't say that about scripture" routine is a silly cop-out.

I'd like to see someone stop playing games and make the straightforward claim that what Jesus, John and Paul told us about salvation is lacking some key component. And then explain what that missing from scripture component is supposed to be.

But I know by now that is not going to happen.

 

[The Liturgist]

So what did Jesus, Paul and John leave out?

The books of the New Testament specifically do not include a table of contents or index as to which other books are valid and apostolic, but is rather a collection of Apostolic writings. Additionally, the books of the New Testament do not comprise, nor were they intended to comprise, a liturgical manual or a book of church order.

We in fact have two books of church order from the first century, at least two liturgies that date from at least the second century and are probably older, a third century book of church order which also contains liturgical text, and in the fourth century the oldest extant complete Bishop’s euchologion or service book, as well as another book of church order which contains more liturgical texts, and at least two additional liturgies.

I referred you to many of these months ago.

And it is not a question of omission by our Lord or the Apostles, but rather this pertains to the distinction between those things which were initially kept on the basis of oral tradition and those things which were important enough to write down.

 

[concretecamper]

So what did Jesus, Paul and John leave out?

Based on that logic, I can claim that scripture contains all the food recipes need for existence because it would be up to you to prove what it doesn't contain.

You can't make this stuff up

 

[The Liturgist]

And then explain what that missing from scripture component is supposed to be.

Its not a question of a missing scriptural component but rather the role that scripture itself assigns to the early church.

 

[ozso]

The books of the New Testament specifically do not include a table of contents or index as to which other books are valid and apostolic, but is rather a collection of Apostolic writings. Additionally, the books of the New Testament do not comprise, nor were they intended to comprise, a liturgical manual or a book of church order.

We in fact have two books of church order from the first century, at least two liturgies that date from at least the second century and are probably older, a third century book of church order which also contains liturgical text, and in the fourth century the oldest extant complete Bishop’s euchologion or service book, as well as another book of church order which contains more liturgical texts, and at least two additional liturgies.

I referred you to many of these months ago.

And it is not a question of omission by our Lord or the Apostles, but rather this pertains to the distinction between those things which were initially kept on the basis of oral tradition and those things which were important enough to write down.

That completely evaded my direct question. What did Jesus, John and Paul leave out regarding the requirements of salvation?

 

[ozso]

Its not a question of a missing scriptural component but rather the role that scripture itself assigns to the early church.

Yeah and that assignment is to proclaim the gospel and teach the word of God.

 

[JulieB67]

he Word of God is Jesus Christ (John 1:1-18) and not scripture.

Yes, the Word became flesh but the only way to establish your faith is to hear the word of God, or what else are you believing in? It's God's letter to us. It's the only way to know God's overall plan, the way to salvation, the beginning and the end. As Paul just states, the word is for reproof, doctrine, instruction in righteousness, correction and can make one wise unto salvation -fully equipping them to completeness. I'll take Paul's word over men's traditions any day of the week.

Christ states he has foretold all things and he set the disciples out to teach all that "he" taught them. And they did. We don't have to add anything to that. In fact it's a dangerous path if someone does. Paul states we are to hold to the traditions they brought forth. We aren't to add new traditions.

 

[The Liturgist]

That completely evaded my direct question. What did Jesus, John and Paul leave out regarding the requirements of salvation?

On the contrary, I have specifically answered your question, by explaining what the important material is which are is contained in the New Testament, and which the New Testament alludes to in the Pauline epistles and elsewhere, but is rather clearly the province of the tradition St. Paul describes, which we can additionally validate from the epistles of St. Ignatius of Antioch and St. Clement.

 

[concretecamper]

Christ states he has foretold us all things and he set the disciples out to teach all that "he" taught them. And they did. We don't have to add anything to that. In fact it's a dangerous path if someone does. Paul states we are to hold to the traditions they brought forth.

Precisely.

Tell us all where scripture tells us that the Bible "teaches all that he taught them"

 

[ozso]

On the contrary, I have specifically answered your question, by explaining what the important material is which are is contained in the New Testament, and which the New Testament alludes to in the Pauline epistles and elsewhere, but is rather clearly the province of the tradition St. Paul describes,

The tradition Paul describes is what he established in his epistles.

which we can additionally validate from the epistles of St. Ignatius of Antioch and St. Clement.

Validate what exactly?

 

[The Liturgist]

Yes, the Word became flesh but the only way to establish your faith is to hear the word of God, or what else are you believing in?

My faith was established when I was baptized as an infant, before I had the ability to hear anything.

Scripture is essentially a verbal icon of the incarnation of the Logos, words about the Word as it were. Indeed we know the Old Testament to be entirely Christological prophecy based on what Christ our True God said about it at the conclusion of the Gospel according to Luke.

I would also be interested to hear the views of our most pious Lutheran friend @Ain't Zwinglian on this issue.

 

[The Liturgist]

The tradition Paul describes is what he established in his epistles.

That’s a conclusion which is unsupported by the text.

 

[ozso]

Precisely.

Tell us all where scripture tells us that the Bible "teaches all that he taught them"

Tell us all what Christ and Paul taught that's not contained in scripture.

 

[The Liturgist]

Christ states he has foretold us all things and he set the disciples out to teach all that "he" taught them. And they did. We don't have to add anything to that. In fact it's a dangerous path if someone does. Paul states we are to hold to the traditions they brought forth.

This is correct, and is interestingly the point I was seeking to make.

 

[The Liturgist]

Tell us all what Christ and Paul taught that's not contained in scripture.

This question has already been answered.

 

[One God and Father of All]

The scriptures are there for people who accept them as the inspired word of God.

 

[ozso]

That’s a conclusion which is unsupported by the text.

Now I praise you, brethren, that you remember me in all things and keep the traditions just as I delivered them to you. 1 Corinthians 11:2

Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle. 2 Thessalonians 2:15

But we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you withdraw from every brother who walks disorderly and not according to the tradition which he received from us. 2 Thessalonians 3:6

What are these traditions Paul set forth that are not found in Paul's epistles?