• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

What IS MATT 16:18 REALLY TEACHING ?

Status
Not open for further replies.

ozso

Site Supporter
Oct 2, 2020
27,889
15,150
PNW
✟972,495.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
You really wouldn’t. There are several members on this forum who are much more learned than I am, some of them in this thread. @Der Alte @ViaCrucis @Valletta @Jipsah @MarkRohfrietsch @dzheremi @Andrewn and @prodromos come instantly to mind as men whose intellect, erudition and personal piety towers above mine. My view is simply this: the Roman Catholic church, the manner in which you are expressing a disagreement with it, has the effect of also constituting a disagreement with the remainder of the oldest and largest churches within Christendom, namely the Eastern Orthodox (second largest, 290 million members, approximately), the Anglican Communion (120 million-150 million members), the Lutheran churches (75-90 million) and the Oriental Orthodox (about 60 million including forty million Ethiopians and Eritreans, 10 million Coptic Orthodox, about six million Armenians, and a balance of around four million Syriac Christians, mostly Mar Thoma Christians or Nasranis, as they are known in Hindu, living on the Malabar Coast of India and in the diaspora, with about a million or so in Suroye (Syriac or Assyrian) in the Middle East, predominantly Syria, Iran and the Holy Land, since most of those in Turkey were murdered, and in and the diaspora.

Thus, my request is that if you must frame your arguments in a way that includes all of these churches together with the Roman Catholic Church, that you do so in a manner which at least recognizes that the Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Lutherans, Anglicans, and so on, do not promote the doctrine of Papal Supremacy, because of course they do not. It just comes across as being demeaning of our respective churches, including the Roman Catholic church, if one articulates an argument that fails to differentiate between us. It feels like a rehashing of the continued tired polemics by a minority of Protestants against the Roman Catholics that, in a logical fallacy, group all of the other traditional liturgical churches together with the Roman Catholics because we happen to be liturgical and have certain similarities in the way in which we worship. It devalues the unique beauty of each individual church, and there is real beauty in all of these churches. I love the Roman Catholic church. I am not Roman Catholic, and due to recent actions of Pope Francis which I am adamantly opposed to I doubt I ever will be Roman Catholic, but there is beauty there. However, it is a distinct church from the Eastern Orthodox, which are distinct from the Oriental Orthodox, and the Lutherans, and the Anglicans, and while I believe these churches can and should be unified on the basis of their shared apostolic tradition (as opposed to a false unity around certain constructs of liberal theology), the distinct liturgical and devotional identity of these churches makes each one quite distinctly beautiful.
This is the way I'm working it on my end. The Pope, Mariology and praying to souls of the dead and to angles is nowhere in scripture and nowhere in early church (first to third/fourth century) writings by the church fathers of that time period. The traditions and practices of zillions of Christians form umpteen denominations, doesn't change that fact. Also it seems likely to me that there's something wrong with a system, when simply stating facts and asking probing questions is called an attack.

If I am incorrect in my conclusions then you and others including those you called out, should be able to easily prove me wrong with compelling and or inarguable evidence and facts.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

The Liturgist

Traditional Liturgical Christian
Site Supporter
Nov 26, 2019
15,623
8,236
50
The Wild West
✟764,056.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Generic Orthodox Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
Let me begin by stating that I have made every effort in the following post to express things in as simple a manner as possible, as per your request.

If this is inadequate, I am at the end of my tether, so to speak, so there is nothing more I can do, but perhaps another member might be able to “translate” my writing. I would note once more that no one else in the entire time I have been on CF.com has expressed difficulty in understanding me, so I remain a bit bewildered by all of this.

This is the way I'm working it on my end. The Pope, Mariology and praying to souls of the dead and to angles is nowhere in scripture and nowhere in early church (first to third/fourth century) writings by the church fathers of that time period. The traditions and practices of zillions of Christians form umpteen denominations, doesn't change that fact. Also it seems likely to me that there's something wrong with a system, when simply stating facts and asking probing questions is called an attack.

If I am incorrect in my conclusions then you and others including those you called out, should be able to easily prove me wrong with compelling and or inarguable evidence and facts.

Well there are a few objections I have with this. Firstly, and most problematically, you have not defined what you mean by “the Pope” and “Mariology.” Mariology merely refers to the theology that concerns the Theotokos, and every Christian denomination has mariology, it is just that some of them do not venerate her. Failing to venerate the Theotokos was unknown in the early church, outside of a relatively small sect called the Antidicomarians, who we only know about them because the fourth century bishop St. Epiphanius of Salamis documented them in his encyclopedia of sects called The Panarion (which literally means “The Medicine Chest” which in turn refers to what we would call a “FIrst-Aid Kit,” for Epiphanius likened each sect to a venomous or otherwise unpleasant critter, which is hilarious, by the way. I would be happy to furnish you with a copy of the Panarion.

Now I suspect, and forgive me if I am wrong on this point, that by Mariology, you meant to write “Mariolatry” which refers to the worship of the Blessed Virgin Mary, which is actually canonically forbidden in all major Christian churches including the Roman Catholic Church, although some Catholics violate this, but most do not. Going back to St. Epiphanius of Salamis, he documented two sects both of which were doing the wrong thing in terms of the Blessed Virgin Mary: there were the Collyridians, and there were the Antidicomarians, who I mentioned above. While the antidicomarians refused to venerate the Blessed Virgin Mary and also denied her perpetual virginity, a doctrine upheld by Martin Luther, John Calvin, Thomas Cranmer and John Wesley, among others, the Collyridians went to the other extreme and engaged in Mariolatry, which is to say, they worshipped the Virgin Mary. This is forbidden as it constitutes idolatry to worship anyone other than God. Thus we can worship Jesus Christ because He is God incarnate; we cannot worship the Virgin Mary because she is only the mother of God and not herself a goddess, but her status as the mother of God makes her particularly worthy of veneration, because she had an uniquely close and important relationship in the life of our incarnate Lord, God and Savior Jesus Christ.

Now, moving on from that, it might surprise you to know that even your statement regarding “the Pope” is confused and also incorrect, technically. Now you should I hope be pleased to note that like you, I disagree with the doctrines of Papal Infallibility and Papal Supremacy. These have always been rejected by the Orthodox. You might be surprised to know however that there was a bishop addressed as Pope starting in the third century, but it was not the bishop of Rome, but rather his colleague the bishop of Alexandria. However, the Church of Alexandria, which subsequently was divided by the Chacledonian schism into the Greek Orthodox Church of Alexandria and All Africa, and the Coptic Orthodox Church (which means “Egyptian Orthodox Church”), but the two churches have since developed a close ecumenical relationship starting in the 1960s, has had Popes since the third century, but never have either the Alexandrian Greek Orthodox or the Coptic Orthodox or their unified predecessors practiced anything like Papal supremacy. Actually one Coptic Orthodox Pope had his mitre stomped by a local diocesan bishop after the Pope began the celebration of the Eucharist without the local bishop being present, when the local bishop was delayed, which is, under the canons of the early church, which date from the second, third and fourth centuries, hugely forbidden. The Coptic pope in question accepted the rebuke.

It was not until the sixth century that the Roman bishops began to be referred to also as Pope. Papal supremacy as a doctrine did not emerge until the years immediately before the Great Schism in 1054 between the Eastern Orthodox and the Roman Catholics, and indeed it was to a very large extent the refusal of the Eastern Orthodox Patriarch of Constantinople to accept the doctrine of the supremacy of the Roman Pope that led to the Roman Catholics basically aggressively excommunicating the Eastern Orthodox. Rejection of Papal Supremacy and of subsequent theological developments in the Roman Catholic Church underlies the difference between the Orthodox and Catholics.

Finally, regarding intercessory prayer to the saints, who are not dead but alive in Christ, and to the angels, can in fact be found in second, third and fourth century Patristic material, specifically, the liturgical texts used by the Church during those centuries to worship. Additionally, there are references to it in many Patristic writings, homilies and commentaries.
 
Upvote 0

Halbhh

Everything You say is Life to me
Site Supporter
Mar 17, 2015
17,340
9,285
catholic -- embracing all Christians
✟1,223,341.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Mariology merely refers to the theology that concerns the Theotokos, and every Christian denomination has mariology, it is just that some of them do not venerate her.
I often wonder if I fully understand how my close Catholic friends feel towards Mary (yes, I know that no person really fully understands how another person feels in a total way, but I mean just have a sense of it...) -- my close Catholic friends with whom I've spent many dozens of hours in our homes, and also attended full services in their churches (and stood up at their wedding).... -- whether I understand their attitude towards Mary (like in the wedding, at one point they went to the statue of Mary for a while for a devotion). Do I have it right, how they see or feel about Mary? (they've only mentioned parts of that to me a few times, and only briefly)

Of course, no 2 human beings on all the Earth really understand each other fully, but I'm just looking to largely understand, to get it more right than wrong, even maybe as much as a 60% understanding (which is very ambitious, I admit, but I think it is possible).

I was reading your post, but this sentence (I quoted above) made me stop and ask: Which denomination specifically does not venerate Mary (or what might he mean by 'venerate' on the other hand....?

I've actually spent a fair amount time in total learning about denominational beliefs over the last 15-20 years. So, I'm familiar with fair amount/broad range of doctrines and ideas of very many denominations, how they differ, what they have in common. Not totally exhaustive, no, but a significant amount, enough to know a lot of the attitudes in a broad vague way. Perhaps equally or even more important, I've attended services (full services) in very many denominations....

I had a couple of thoughts about what might be going on here where you stated that some churches do not venerate Mary -- which sounded very unlikely to me at first hearing. I'd have put that number at either 0 or 1 perhaps out of the 25 broad denominational groups. Pretty much the overwhelming majority of Christian believers in most all churches revere/love Mary I think.

But you might have meant something different than I'm thinking of, and more than one idea came to mind to check on.

The first idea that came to me is perhaps you see it that in order to revere Mary and hold her up in a high esteem (which in sum I'd translate to be "venerate") -- that in order to do that, even though most believers would already be doing it, you might feel that a church must officially pronounce/publish an official church doctrine of veneration to be categorized as venerating, instead of simply venerating in actual real hearts/minds.

But that might not be it I thought, so I thought next: 'what if I'm not using the same definition of "venerate" perhaps?'

So I looked up the definition to be sure I have it precisely.

Venerate -- verb
  1. regard with great respect; revere.
    "Mother Teresa is venerated as a saint"
That is indeed precisely how I was using the word and understanding it. Ok.

Then, next I wondered: but what if you have a more denominationally specific definition, so I tried to look up if there is a special (different) definition of 'venerate' in the RCC or generally Orthodox.

First for RCC I found quickly a plain language explanation:

" The word veneration simply means to give great respect or reverence. The respect and reverence that Catholics give to sacred objects is not of the same kind of respect or reverence given to God."

For Orthodox, I quickly thought that you'd know precisely what is key in any Orthodox definition that differs from the basic definition above I'd better just ask you on that.
 
Last edited:
  • Friendly
Reactions: The Liturgist
Upvote 0

The Liturgist

Traditional Liturgical Christian
Site Supporter
Nov 26, 2019
15,623
8,236
50
The Wild West
✟764,056.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Generic Orthodox Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
For Orthodox, I quickly thought that you'd know precisely what is key in any Orthodox definition that differs from the basic definition above I'd better just ask you on that.

No, our definition of venerate is basically that which you would get from the dictionary. And most denominations do venerate the Blessed Virgin Mary at least to some extent. There are very few which are openly hostile towards her or which deny her importance and her virtue altogether.

Indeed it is the case that all of the leading Protestant reformers embraced not only the veneration of the Theotokos but her status as Theotokos (in the case of John Calvin, he very reluctantly agreed with this doctrine, but he did agree with it, which is good, because otherwise that would have been a case of per se Nestorianism) but also her perpetual virginity.

However on ChristianForums and in the wild I have on occasion met a few people who seem to actively dislike her, and who seem to regard any veneration of her as some sort of dangerous distraction from the worship of our Lord, which is simply wrong.

Additionally at present I have encountered someone in another thread who is making the very peculiar claim that St. Mary is not even the biological mother of our Lord according to his human nature, but rather acted as something like a surrogate, which is…very unusual.

However, these are of course fringe positions and you are correct that the majority of churches, and also all of the major denominations, do indeed venerate our Lady, and many of them, such as the Anglicans and Lutherans, venerate her a great deal. There are several denominations, also including Methodists, for example, where one will routinely find churches named for her.
 
  • Informative
Reactions: Halbhh
Upvote 0

The Liturgist

Traditional Liturgical Christian
Site Supporter
Nov 26, 2019
15,623
8,236
50
The Wild West
✟764,056.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Generic Orthodox Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
If I am incorrect in my conclusions then you and others including those you called out, should be able to easily prove me wrong with compelling and or inarguable evidence and facts.

Note that I did not call anyone out. However I believe the information I have presented is inarguable. But I am not prepared to offer arguments on behalf of Roman Catholicism; my objection to your arguments exists only insofar as you have made arguments that contradict the faith of the other major liturgical churches including those which I have an active relationship with, and thus i feel compelled to intervene on behalf of the other liturgical churches, since I have a number of pious Roman Catholic friends who do a splendid job defending Roman Catholicism. Although I do intervene on their behalf as well when someone makes a terrible and untrue accusation against Roman Catholicism.

In particular, I have no patience for the veritable parade of posts which falsely accuse the Roman Catholic church of being the product of some dreadful pagan conspiracy involving Emperor Constantine (and probably Emperor Palpatine from Star Wars as well in at least some instances).
 
Upvote 0

ozso

Site Supporter
Oct 2, 2020
27,889
15,150
PNW
✟972,495.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Well there are a few objections I have with this. Firstly, and most problematically, you have not defined what you mean by “the Pope” and “Mariology.” Mariology merely refers to the theology that concerns the Theotokos, and every Christian denomination has mariology, it is just that some of them do not venerate her. Failing to venerate the Theotokos was unknown in the early church, outside of a relatively small sect called the Antidicomarians, who we only know about them because the fourth century bishop St. Epiphanius of Salamis documented them in his encyclopedia of sects called The Panarion (which literally means “The Medicine Chest” which in turn refers to what we would call a “FIrst-Aid Kit,” for Epiphanius likened each sect to a venomous or otherwise unpleasant critter, which is hilarious, by the way. I would be happy to furnish you with a copy of the Panarion.
Mariology is the theology of Mary. Theology isn't veneration. What's not in scripture or early church writings is Mary being an intercessor to Christ. Nor the Queen of Heaven. Nor a perpetual virgin. Nor the Immaculate Conception. All of that goes well beyond the scope of veneration. The only evidence that's going to prove that claim wrong is is clearly stated scripture or it being clearly stated by Clement, Ignatius, Tertullian, Justin Martyr, Origen, Polycarp et al
Now I suspect, and forgive me if I am wrong on this point, that by Mariology, you meant to write “Mariolatry” which refers to the worship of the Blessed Virgin Mary, which is actually canonically forbidden in all major Christian churches including the Roman Catholic Church, although some Catholics violate this, but most do not. Going back to St. Epiphanius of Salamis, he documented two sects both of which were doing the wrong thing in terms of the Blessed Virgin Mary: there were the Collyridians, and there were the Antidicomarians, who I mentioned above. While the antidicomarians refused to venerate the Blessed Virgin Mary and also denied her perpetual virginity, a doctrine upheld by Martin Luther, John Calvin, Thomas Cranmer and John Wesley, among others, the Collyridians went to the other extreme and engaged in Mariolatry, which is to say, they worshipped the Virgin Mary. This is forbidden as it constitutes idolatry to worship anyone other than God. Thus we can worship Jesus Christ because He is God incarnate; we cannot worship the Virgin Mary because she is only the mother of God and not herself a goddess, but her status as the mother of God makes her particularly worthy of veneration, because she had an uniquely close and important relationship in the life of our incarnate Lord, God and Savior Jesus Christ.
There's nothing in scripture which indicates that God wants Christians to make a huge deal out of Mary in any way. And I've never read Clement, Ignatius, Tertullian, Justin Martyr, Origen, Polycarp et al doing so.
Now, moving on from that, it might surprise you to know that even your statement regarding “the Pope” is confused and also incorrect, technically. Now you should I hope be pleased to note that like you, I disagree with the doctrines of Papal Infallibility and Papal Supremacy. These have always been rejected by the Orthodox. You might be surprised to know however that there was a bishop addressed as Pope starting in the third century, but it was not the bishop of Rome, but rather his colleague the bishop of Alexandria. However, the Church of Alexandria, which subsequently was divided by the Chacledonian schism into the Greek Orthodox Church of Alexandria and All Africa, and the Coptic Orthodox Church (which means “Egyptian Orthodox Church”), but the two churches have since developed a close ecumenical relationship starting in the 1960s, has had Popes since the third century, but never have either the Alexandrian Greek Orthodox or the Coptic Orthodox or their unified predecessors practiced anything like Papal supremacy. Actually one Coptic Orthodox Pope had his mitre stomped by a local diocesan bishop after the Pope began the celebration of the Eucharist without the local bishop being present, when the local bishop was delayed, which is, under the canons of the early church, which date from the second, third and fourth centuries, hugely forbidden. The Coptic pope in question accepted the rebuke.

It was not until the sixth century that the Roman bishops began to be referred to also as Pope. Papal supremacy as a doctrine did not emerge until the years immediately before the Great Schism in 1054 between the Eastern Orthodox and the Roman Catholics, and indeed it was to a very large extent the refusal of the Eastern Orthodox Patriarch of Constantinople to accept the doctrine of the supremacy of the Roman Pope that led to the Roman Catholics basically aggressively excommunicating the Eastern Orthodox. Rejection of Papal Supremacy and of subsequent theological developments in the Roman Catholic Church underlies the difference between the Orthodox and Catholics.
I think rather than go into all of that, it's just a simple question of A: Is it truly scriptural. B: did Clement, Ignatius, Tertullian, Justin Martyr, Origen, Polycarp et al ever say anything about Peter being the Pope and the succession of Popes or that there ever was a Pope in the beginning as mainly exists in Roman Catholocism.
Finally, regarding intercessory prayer to the saints, who are not dead but alive in Christ, and to the angels, can in fact be found in second, third and fourth century Patristic material, specifically, the liturgical texts used by the Church during those centuries to worship. Additionally, there are references to it in many Patristic writings, homilies and commentaries.
I'd like to see something clearly stated by Clement, Ignatius, Tertullian, Justin Martyr, Origen, Polycarp et al that God wants Christians praying to spirits and angels and that said practice was first prescribed and ordained by an apostle. So the order is from God to the Apostles and from the Apostles to the earliest Church Fathers.

In a nutshell, can it be shown that the Pope, all the extra stuff about Mary, praying to spirits (other than God) and angels is something God wants Christians to do, and told the Apostles that's what He wants, and then the Apostles told the early Church Fathers that's what God wants.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

The Liturgist

Traditional Liturgical Christian
Site Supporter
Nov 26, 2019
15,623
8,236
50
The Wild West
✟764,056.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Generic Orthodox Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
Mariology is the theology of Mary. Theology isn't veneration. What's not in scripture or early church writings is Mary being an intercessor to Christ. Nor the Queen of Heaven. Nor a perpetual virgin. Nor the Immaculate Conception. All of that goes well beyond the scope of veneration. The only evidence that's going to prove that claim wrong is is clearly stated scripture or it being clearly stated by

Once again, this is partially inaccurate. Specifically, the Patristic writings do attest to the perpetual of the Theotokos, and there was intercessory prayer, which you would be aware of if you had read any of the ancient liturgical texts I referred you to several weeks ago. As for the rest, these are all Roman Catholic positions, mostly of Scholastic origin.

The problem is that you are basically barking up the wrong tree in your desire to criticize Roman Catholicism. And what is more, your arguments criticize the wrong aspects of Roman Catholic doctrine, in my view. At present, the only very substantial and important doctrinal error on the part of the Roman church is Fiducia Supplicans and certain related positions pertaining to Papal Supremacy that enable such a change.

Compared to the issue of homosexuality and the improper blessing of homosexual relationships enabled by Fiducia Supplicans, any other doctrinal issues with the Roman Catholic Church shrink to insignificance.
 
Upvote 0

ozso

Site Supporter
Oct 2, 2020
27,889
15,150
PNW
✟972,495.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Once again, this is partially inaccurate. Specifically, the Patristic writings do attest to the perpetual of the Theotokos, and there was intercessory prayer, which you would be aware of if you had read any of the ancient liturgical texts I referred you to several weeks ago. As for the rest, these are all Roman Catholic positions, mostly of Scholastic origin.

The problem is that you are basically barking up the wrong tree in your desire to criticize Roman Catholicism. And what is more, your arguments criticize the wrong aspects of Roman Catholic doctrine, in my view. At present, the only very substantial and important doctrinal error on the part of the Roman church is Fiducia Supplicans and certain related positions pertaining to Papal Supremacy that enable such a change.

Compared to the issue of homosexuality and the improper blessing of homosexual relationships enabled by Fiducia Supplicans, any other doctrinal issues with the Roman Catholic Church shrink to insignificance.
For some reason my post stopped short. It was supposed to be: clearly stated by Clement, Ignatius, Tertullian, Justin Martyr, Origen, Polycarp et al

From God to the Apostles and from the Apostles to the earliest Church Fathers.

What God wants is first and foremost.

Can it be clearly shown that God wants Christians to pray to Mary. That God wants Mary to be regarded as the Queen of Heaven. That God says Mary was a perpetual virgin. That God says Mary was an immaculate conception etc. What does God Himself say He wants in regard to how Christians view Mary? What did God communicate to the Apostles about it? What did the Apostles then communicate to the earliest Church Fathers about it?

Can it be clearly proven that it's ordained by God, that it's what God wants?
 
Upvote 0

concretecamper

I stand with Candice.
Nov 23, 2013
7,358
2,865
PA
✟333,776.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
I believe the Bible contains all that is needed to save a parson from the condemnation he is under.
A minority of people who call themselves Christians believe that even though Scripture itself doesn't teach that. You are free to follow this man made doctrine, just don't be bothered that many reject your doctrine
 
  • Winner
Reactions: The Liturgist
Upvote 0

ozso

Site Supporter
Oct 2, 2020
27,889
15,150
PNW
✟972,495.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
A minority of people who call themselves Christians believe that even though Scripture itself doesn't teach that. You are free to follow this man made doctrine, just don't be bothered that many reject your doctrine
What information regarding what's needed to save a parson from the condemnation he is under, is lacking in the bible?
 
Upvote 0

concretecamper

I stand with Candice.
Nov 23, 2013
7,358
2,865
PA
✟333,776.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
What information regarding what's needed to save a parson from the condemnation he is under, is lacking in the bible?
Haha

Maybe you can shows us all where the Bible says that it contains all that is needed for salvation.
 
Upvote 0

One God and Father of All

Well-Known Member
Apr 20, 2018
735
200
60
Wilmington, DE
✟18,193.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Haha

Maybe you can shows us all where the Bible says that it contains all that is needed for salvation.
The Bible says that death has reigned on the earth since Adam.
It says that the resurrection of the dead to life eternal for the faithful comes through Christ.
 
Upvote 0

The Liturgist

Traditional Liturgical Christian
Site Supporter
Nov 26, 2019
15,623
8,236
50
The Wild West
✟764,056.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Generic Orthodox Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
A minority of people who call themselves Christians believe that even though Scripture itself doesn't teach that. You are free to follow this man made doctrine, just don't be bothered that many reject your doctrine

Indeed so.
 
Upvote 0

concretecamper

I stand with Candice.
Nov 23, 2013
7,358
2,865
PA
✟333,776.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
The Bible says that death has reigned on the earth since Adam.
It says that the resurrection of the dead to life eternal for the faithful comes through Christ.
I'm not too good at reading between the lines. You forgot to quote the part of scripture that says the Bible contains all that is needed for Salvation.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: The Liturgist
Upvote 0

The Liturgist

Traditional Liturgical Christian
Site Supporter
Nov 26, 2019
15,623
8,236
50
The Wild West
✟764,056.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Generic Orthodox Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
The Bible says that death has reigned on the earth since Adam.
It says that the resurrection of the dead to life eternal for the faithful comes through Christ.

What it does not say is that it itself contains all that is required for salvation; on the contrary such an extreme Nuda Scriptura position is contrary to several verses I have posted.
 
Upvote 0

JulieB67

Well-Known Member
Apr 21, 2020
2,102
905
57
Ohio US
✟207,718.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Maybe you can shows us all where the Bible says that it contains all that is needed for salvation
Paul tells Timothy that the scriptures are able to make him wise unto salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.


I Timothy 3:15 "And that from a child thou hast know the holy Scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus."

How do we establish our faith?

Romans 10:17 "So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God."

II Timothy 3:16 "All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:"


II Timothy 3:17 "That the man of God may be perfect (complete in the Greek), thoroughly furnished unto all good works."

Furnished in the Greek in this verse means fully equipped. If Paul states it will fully equip us that's good enough for me.

If we stay in his word every day we can start to sanctify ourselves.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

The Liturgist

Traditional Liturgical Christian
Site Supporter
Nov 26, 2019
15,623
8,236
50
The Wild West
✟764,056.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Generic Orthodox Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
For some reason my post stopped short. It was supposed to be: clearly stated by Clement, Ignatius, Tertullian, Justin Martyr, Origen, Polycarp et al

From God to the Apostles and from the Apostles to the earliest Church Fathers.

What God wants is first and foremost.

Can it be clearly shown that God wants Christians to pray to Mary. That God wants Mary to be regarded as the Queen of Heaven. That God says Mary was a perpetual virgin. That God says Mary was an immaculate conception etc. What does God Himself say He wants in regard to how Christians view Mary? What did God communicate to the Apostles about it? What did the Apostles then communicate to the earliest Church Fathers about it?

Can it be clearly proven that it's ordained by God, that it's what God wants?

Once again, you are conflating Catholic doctrines with non-Catholic Patristic doctrines. The fact that Roman Catholics believe in the doctrine of the immaculate conception does not invalidate the Patristic and Orthodox perspective concerning the proper veneration of her. I will not be able to respond to your posts if you continue to conflate these matters, because it comes across as though you are saying that the Orthodox believe in all of these doctrines or that our faith is somehow articulated to the Roman Catholic position, and likewise that of the other liturgical Protestants, and this, as I told you before, is offensive. Thus I would very respectfully ask you to take the time to understand the difference between the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church and not repeatedly criticize us on the basis of doctrines that are specific to Roman Catholicism, or vice versa I suppose.
 
Upvote 0

The Liturgist

Traditional Liturgical Christian
Site Supporter
Nov 26, 2019
15,623
8,236
50
The Wild West
✟764,056.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Generic Orthodox Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
Paul tells Timothy that the scriptures are able to make him wise unto salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.


I Timothy 3:15 "And that from a child thou hast know the holy Scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus."

How do we establish our faith?

Romans 10:17 "So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God."

II Timothy 3:16 "All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:"


II Timothy 3:17 "That the man of God may be perfect (complete in the Greek), thoroughly furnished unto all good works."

Furnished in the Greek in this verse means fully equipped. If Paul states it will fully equip us that's good enough for me.

What this does not say is that Scripture itself contains all required information. Indeed verses such as 2 Thessalonians 2:13-15 and 1 Corinthians 11:2 have the effect of precluding such an interpretation.

If we stay in his word every day we can start to sanctify ourselves.

The Word of God is Jesus Christ (John 1:1-18) and not scripture.
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.