What IS MATT 16:18 REALLY TEACHING ?

[One God and Father of All]

Please do not misrepresent Catholicism with such a false accusation. As I've stated, Jesus is the head of the Catholic Church.

Does a body have two heads?

 

[Valletta]

Catholics pray to Mary to make intercession for them. Is that taught in scripture? Absolutely not! Therefore it must come from “sacred tradition”. And if it comes from sacred tradition it must be believed by their church.
it seems Mary can forgive you just as Christ can.
if that’s not a false religion I don’t know what one is..

The Word of God is spoken of as Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture. Catholics must believe the Word of God, I would not dare call that fake.
Study your Bible. In the Davidic kingdom, starting with Solomon, the mother of the king (the queen mother) makes requests to the king on behalf of the people. Mary's role was prefigured in the Word of God. Be assured Mary is praying for you and for me.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Please do not misrepresent Catholicism with such a false accusation. As I've stated, Jesus is the head of the Catholic Church.

Some interlocutors prefer their own lies to the facts. I suspect that there is no value in debate with such.

 

[ozso]

You knew a lot of Catholics back then?

I heard/read what was said from news reports.

While there's a whole Catholic Catechism online presenting Catholic teaching for all to criticize or try and refute if they can, it seems like the attacks most often come from what this Catholic or that Catholic supposedly said or did.

Like I said to Xeno, there's what the Catechism says, and then there's what people observe and then perceive from their observations. The conclusions they draw based upon what they witness.

 

[ozso]

It would be more accurate to say Catholics are constantly accused of all kinds of things, not being Christians, claiming the pope is God, worshiping Mary, etc. and sometimes Catholic speak up in defense. Many of the time of Jesus on earth accused Jesus of sinning against God.

Matthew 10: 22 and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved.
Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition.

Unfortunately I've seen that defense is used often by members of cults and by false teachers.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Like I said to Xeno, there's what the Catechism says, and then there's what people observe and then perceive from their observations. The conclusions they draw based upon what they witness.

Like I said to you; there's the truth and then there's what your posts claim some anonymous Catholic said and your spin on it. The former is worthy of belief, the latter is just hot air.

 

[One God and Father of All]

The Word of God is spoken of as Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture. Catholics must believe the Word of God, I would not dare call that fake.
Study your Bible. In the Davidic kingdom, starting with Solomon, the mother of the king (the queen mother) makes requests to the king on behalf of the people. Mary's role was prefigured in the Word of God. Be assured Mary is praying for you and for me.

The mother of the king was alive to make requests. Mary is dead. Unless your “sacred tradition“;says she isn't . But I don’t believe your sacred tradition. As far as scripture goes, no one taught Mary was alive after she died. Nor did they teach to pray her to pray for you.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Unfortunately I've seen that defense is used often by members of cults and by false teachers.

Interesting that you should say that. I see cultists accuse the Catholic Church of all sorts of amazingly crazy things. Seems like lies work on cultists better than they do on people willing to honestly read what the Catholic Church teaches.

 

[ozso]

A lot of people would disagree with you about Judas. Do you consider Judas as being righteous?

Most would not consider Judas a true apostle, and was only chosen by Jesus so that the scriptures would be fulfilled as Jesus said about the son of perdition (John 17:12).

 

[ozso]

Interesting that you should say that. I see cultists accuse the Catholic Church of all sorts of amazingly crazy things. Seems like lies work on cultists better than they do on people willing to honestly read what the Catholic Church teaches.

You might be surprised that I argue against false things said against the Catholic Church by them. And I wasn't trying to put the RCC in the same camp as them. But rather it seems to me such a defence as they use puts the RCC in bad company.

Now take the Pope for example. They put him on a throne, dress him up like a king and treat him like a king. The problem with that for non-Catholic Christians is that Jesus Christ is supposed to be the King.

 

[ozso]

The current pope has the same job as the first pope if that's what you mean by "level." But Popes can go to heaven or hell.

Yet the Pope is called "Holy Father and "Your Holiness". Which very strongly implies that Popes are supposed to be holy.

And needless to say many Christians will only call God "Holy Father" and consider such a title being given to a mere man pure blasphemy.

 

[One God and Father of All]

You might be surprised that I argue against false things said against the Catholic Church by them. And I wasn't trying to put the RCC in the same camp as them. But rather it seems to me such a defence as they use puts the RCC in bad company.

Now take the Pope for example. They put him on a throne, dress him up like a king and treat him like a king. The problem with that for non-Catholic Christians is that Jesus Christ is supposed to be the King.

Yeah, all dressed up as if he were head and lord of the church. The farther they rise the farther they fall.
.

 

[ozso]

Like I said to you; there's the truth and then there's what your posts claim some anonymous Catholic said and your spin on it. The former is worthy of belief, the latter is just hot air.

I'm simply explaining why other Christians think and say certain things about the RCC.

 

[ozso]

The Word of God is spoken of as Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture. Catholics must believe the Word of God, I would not dare call that fake.
Study your Bible. In the Davidic kingdom, starting with Solomon, the mother of the king (the queen mother) makes requests to the king on behalf of the people. Mary's role was prefigured in the Word of God. Be assured Mary is praying for you and for me.

But that's something that's never said about Mary in scripture or by the apostolic fathers. It was thought up a long time after that. And in the Old Testament there's no passage in scripture venerating Bathsheba that I know of.

There's certainly no examples in scripture of anyone asking Mary to talk to Jesus for them. The Roman centurion didn't go to Mary, he went straight to Jesus. The woman affected with bleeding didn't go to Mary, she went directly to Jesus. Of all the people who saught a miracle from Jesus absolutely none of them went to Mary, or were told to go to Mary, nor was that even remotely suggested in scripture.

 

[Bones49]

Like there was one traitorous among the twelve apostles chosen by the Lord Jesus? <sardonic commentary>I hope that doesn't tarnish Jesus' reputation as Lord of all and head of the Church. It would be such a pity had his "mistake" with Judas besmirched his perfection. </sardonic commentary>

Firstly Jesus knew that Judas was a traitor, and chose him anyway, right? He was chosen for a reason. And what do you think, do you think that when Jesus chose Judas, that Judas knew he would betray him, or did the idea of betrayal grow in his mind as he saw that things weren't going the way he expected. Do we consider that the reality that we know as the Gospel, is what the disciples expected when they first signed up?

Does Jesus directly appoint the Popes? I don't think so. Does even the requirements for overseers and elders (From the Epistles to Timothy and Titus) get applied to people before the are considered to be a pope (or rather throughout history, has this been a requirement of the church?

Also, Judas wasn't appointed by Jesus to be the head of the church, he was just a disciple. The comparison isn't really fair, don't you think?

On the other hand, I think you miss my point, my point is that Jesus isn't making a mistake appoint apostate Pope's, I think that an apostate pope can be appointed shows how far from true religion the church had wandered at those point in time. The Catholic church has changed signficantly over the years, and I believe there are measures in place now to prevent people who are not fit for the job to become Pope.

 

[Bones49]

And least of all in the scales of truth is what those opposed to the Catholic Church, untruthfully say of the Catholic Church and her people.

I agree with you. It is unfortunate when people wrongly have a very negative connotation about something. Perhaps it's human nature (I hate that term) to only remember the bad things we hear about things we don't want to like. From a non Christian perspective, I imagine that they see the Church, both protestant and Catholic parts of it as very similar if not the same. And so in a great measure, any negative views people have of the Catholic church reflects badly on the protestant's as well (and vice versa right.)

Perhaps my experience of what people believe about the Catholic church isn't normative, you seem to take that what we are saying isn't. But I guess part of the problem is that the Church, all parts of it, is so large, that in one place you can have a Catholic priest (or protestant pastor) doing awful things to members of the congregation - someone who should be put in Jail, and on the other hand have Catholic priests who are doing amazing things for the extension of God's kingdom and to help the poor (not a priest, but Mother Theresa is an example). Also the media doesn't help right, they will never report when a priest or whoever gives 90% of their income to the poor, but if there is even any allegation of misconduct, the press will be all over it.

 

[Valletta]

But that's something that's never said about Mary in scripture or by the apostolic fathers. It was thought up a long time after that. And in the Old Testament there's no passage in scripture venerating Bathsheba that I know of.

There's certainly no examples in scripture of anyone asking Mary to talk to Jesus for them. The Roman centurion didn't go to Mary, he went straight to Jesus. The woman affected with bleeding didn't go to Mary, she went directly to Jesus. Of all the people who saught a miracle from Jesus absolutely none of them went to Mary, or were told to go to Mary, nor was that even remotely suggested in scripture.

Mary makes requests on our behalf. She made a request for others when Jesus performed the miracle of Cana, she told Jesus they were out of wine. Even though Jesus told her His time had not yet come, she did not withdraw her request, she made it clear she would accept whatever response Jesus gave. Asking those in Heaven to pray for us is an old practice, going back as far as Psalm 103. I know many Christians have dropped the practice, that is their choice. Of course a personal relationship with Jesus is at the heart of Catholicism and I do make prayer requests directly to Jesus, but Holy Scripture tells us to pray for one another and I take the Word of God seriously.

 

[ozso]

Mary makes requests on our behalf. She made a request for others when Jesus performed the miracle of Cana, she told Jesus they were out of wine. Even though Jesus told her His time had not yet come, she did not withdraw her request, she made it clear she would accept whatever response Jesus gave. Asking those in Heaven to pray for us is an old practice, going back as far as Psalm 103. I know many Christians have dropped the practice, that is their choice. Of course a personal relationship with Jesus is at the heart of Catholicism and I do make prayer requests directly to Jesus, but Holy Scripture tells us to pray for one another and I take the Word of God seriously.

I'm very familiar with this resoning by now and have had much time to ponder it. Plenty of people made requests to Jesus to perform a miracle. Some persistently. And Jesus acquiesced to their requests. The miracle of Cana was merely the first of many such occasions. Psalm 103:20 has nothing to do with praying to others in heaven to meet your needs or to intercede for you. David always went straight to the Lord regarding his needs and absolution and so on. Abraham, Moses, David etc etc never ever prayed to anyone in Heaven except to
the Lord. Why anyone would want to pray to anyone in Heaven other than the Lord is beyond my grasp.

 

[Guojing]

I don't quite see it that way. James, the brother of Jesus, would obviously hold a top position in the Jerusalem church. He certainly knew Jesus better than anyone (in the earthly sense). And he came from a good family.

You are aware that James only believed Jesus is God only after the resurrection?

He would not even qualify to replace Judas based on the criteria set in Acts 1

Israel has never faded from God's memory, but certainly faded as a nation after Jesus' death, and after the 70 AD destruction of Jerusalem. I don't think this had a thing to do with Peter, who was called to begin in Jerusalem and then reach out to the nations. I've heard he died in Rome.

I am not saying Peter "caused" the diminishing of Israel, I am saying his status "correlated" with the state of Israel in God's eyes.

You know the correlation does not imply causation point?

 

[Valletta]

I'm very familiar with this resoning by now and have had much time to ponder it. Plenty of people made requests to Jesus to perform a miracle. Some persistently. And Jesus acquiesced to their requests. The miracle of Cana was merely the first of many such occasions. Psalm 103:20 has nothing to do with praying to others in heaven to meet your needs or to intercede for you. David always went straight to the Lord regarding his needs and absolution and so on. Abraham, Moses, David etc etc never ever prayed to anyone in Heaven except to
the Lord. Why anyone would want to pray to anyone in Heaven other than the Lord is beyond my grasp.

Actually Psalm 103 addresses the angels in Heaven. Catholics believe the Psalms are God-breathed. We don't question "why" the Lord says we are to pray for one another, we believe the Word of God.