What IS MATT 16:18 REALLY TEACHING ?

[RileyG]

To be clear they regarded Rome as having a primacy of honor, along with the other two Petrine Sees, Antioch and Alexandria.

Canons VI and VII of Nicaea explicitly declare that these three sees, along with the newly rebuilt Jerusalem, as having essentially the same rights and authority.

One reason the early Roman church was also highly regarded is because it was extremely traditional and conservative from a liturgical perspective. It had already compromised this reputation to some extent by the reign of Pope St. Gregory I Diologos, known also as St. Gregory the Great, who greatly repaired relations with the church in Constantinople as he had served for many years as a legate there, and also who wrote the Presanctified Liturgy which became standard in both the Roman Rite and the Byzantine Rite liturgies, along with other contributions, for example implementing a system of chant in Rome similar to the eight mode Byzantine system (this had already existed in Milan as Ambrosian Chant, where it was introduced by St. Ambrose the Great during a vigil in 386 to prevent the Arians from taking over one of his basilicas).

Thank you for your knowledge! It's appreciated

 

[ozso]

One does not need to do so to find intercessory prayer:

“[The Shepherd said:] ‘But those who are weak and slothful in prayer, hesitate to ask anything from the Lord; but the Lord is full of compassion, and gives without fail to all who ask him. But you, [Hermas,] having been strengthened by the holy angel [you saw], and having obtained from him such intercession, and not being slothful, why do not you ask of the Lord understanding, and receive it from him?’” (The Shepherd 3:5:4 [A.D. 80])..

Revelation 5:8 And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints;
RSVCE

When it comes to praying to Mary, ten thousand saints and innumerable angels, what time is left for the Lord?

Both Jesus and Paul give us detailed information on how to pray, who to pray to, what to pray for, where to pray, why to pray, how not to pray, how prayer works - and for some unfathomable reason to me that direct detailed specific instruction supposedly is not good enough - and has to be added onto considerably by way of tenuous sources.

 

[ozso]

Actually there's very little focus, it happens to be the oldest example and comes up when people incorrectly claim there is nothing in the Bible about intercessory prayers or claiming those in Heaven can't hear us.

Seems to me there's considerable focus on praying to a whole host other than God.

In Psalms "Lord" appears around 700 times and "God" around 400 times and "angels" 1 time - conclusion: pray to angels!

 

[RileyG]

When it comes to praying to Mary, ten thousand saints and innumerable angels, what time is left for the Lord?

Both Jesus and Paul give us detailed information on how to pray, who to pray to, what to pray for, where to pray, why to pray, how not to pray, how prayer works - and for some unfathomable reason to me that direct detailed specific instruction supposedly is not good enough - and has to be added onto considerably by way of tenuous sources.

It only points to Jesus even more. Mary said in John’s gospel “Do what he tells you.” She always points to Jesus.

 

[RileyG]

Seems to me there's considerable focus on praying to a whole host other than God.

In Psalms "Lord" appears around 700 times and "God" around 400 times and "angels" 1 time - conclusion: pray to angels!

Hosts of angels only draw us closer to God.

 

[ozso]

I wonder how Mary’s mother gave birth to a child who was free of what they call “original sin”. Was Mary’ mother free of “original sin”.

I ask because the Bible never teaches anything about it.

Nor does the first several centuries of the Church teach it.

When I looked up "when did the immaculate conception start being taught" I got:

"The Immaculate Conception is the belief that the Virgin Mary was free of original sin from the moment of her conception. It is one of the four Marian dogmas of the Catholic Church. Debated by medieval theologians, it was not defined as a dogma until 1854, by Pope Pius IX in the papal bull Ineffabilis Deus. While the Immaculate Conception asserts Mary's freedom from original sin, the Council of Trent, held between 1545 and 1563, had previously affirmed her freedom from personal sin"

 

[ozso]

Hosts of angels only draw us closer to God.

According to what I've read, that's the Holy Spirit's job.

 

[ozso]

It only points to Jesus even more. Mary said in John’s gospel “Do what he tells you.” She always points to Jesus.

I wonder why Jesus and Paul in their extensive instructions on prayer, left that out.

 

[RileyG]

Nor does the first several centuries of the Church teach it.

When I looked up "when did the immaculate conception start being taught" I got:

"The Immaculate Conception is the belief that the Virgin Mary was free of original sin from the moment of her conception. It is one of the four Marian dogmas of the Catholic Church. Debated by medieval theologians, it was not defined as a dogma until 1854, by Pope Pius IX in the papal bull Ineffabilis Deus. While the Immaculate Conception asserts Mary's freedom from original sin, the Council of Trent, held between 1545 and 1563, had previously affirmed her freedom from personal sin"

It was a belief of the Church since the beginning, and was officially defined in 1854.

 

[RileyG]

I wonder why Jesus and Paul in their extensive instructions on prayer, left that out.

They didn’t. Read Hebrews. There’s a cloud of witnesses surrounding us that intercede for us.

 

[RileyG]

According to what I've read, that's the Holy Spirit's job.

Other people can’t draw you closer to God?

 

[ozso]

Other people can’t draw you closer to God?

Not by supernatural means that would be exhibited by angels and souls in heaven. And from what I've read the supernatural drawing of you closer to God comes from the Holy Spirit.

 

[ozso]

I wonder why Jesus and Paul in their extensive instructions on prayer, left that out.

They didn’t. Read Hebrews. There’s a cloud of witnesses surrounding us that intercede for us.

Where in Hebrews 11 and 12 does say the cloud of witnesses intercede for us? And more specifically where in Hebrews are we instructed to pray to the cloud of witnesses?

 

[RileyG]

Where in Hebrews 11 and 12 does say the cloud of witnesses intercede for us? And more specifically where in Hebrews are we instructed to pray to the cloud of witnesses?

Pray=ask

What is wrong with asking those alive in heaven to pray for you?

I do not accept sola scriptura

But we are getting off topic now.

 

[RileyG]

Not by supernatural means that would be exhibited by angels and souls in heaven. And from what I've read the supernatural drawing of you closer to God comes from the Holy Spirit.

Yes, but others can draw you closer to God.

 

[ozso]

It was a belief of the Church since the beginning, and was officially defined in 1854.

How do you know it was a belief in the church from the beginning? Where in scripture and or early church writing is it mentioned?

 

[ozso]

Yes, but others can draw you closer to God.

How?

 

[RileyG]

How?

By praying for us, fellowship etc

 

[ozso]

Pray=ask

What is wrong with asking those alive in heaven to pray for you?

I do not accept sola scriptura

But we are getting off topic now.

It's more a matter of Jesus and Paul instructing us in detail on everything about prayer and not saying anything about praying to anyone other than God.

 

[ozso]

By praying for us, fellowship etc

So you fellowship with angels and souls in heaven? What do they say to you?