What is L.O.V.E.? (Matthew 22:36-40)

[2PhiloVoid]

I have read over this reply at least 5 times today, then just did it again. A few points:

1. I get the focus of "we" on the Christological love. However, "being in this world but no longer of it", I have to be in both places and relate the two. Even thought I used the scripture at the Heading of this thread, it's not centered (for lack of a better word) JUST on the Christological. However, at the same time, which is very strange, it deals with the "enemy loving" you mentioned. This is why I put this in question form, and not a statement. It allows for the reality of both worlds to be represented. True, this is a Christian Forum, but who better to understand sinners......than Christians.

I can understand your wanting to approach this more expansively, but maybe due to my somewhat secluded and dysfunctional upbringing, I find myself being kind of partial to the Christ Love thing apart from affirming other manifestations of love. However, I could be wrong about my more narrow view.

2. Passion. One of the things I have learned is to go to the dictionary. Reading fiction led to this. It's how I learned that there are a LOT of definitions for one word, depending on the word. Which, I'm thinking, "Why?" But what's worse, some definitions actually contradict the other definitions. Now, it was other words that led to this realization (Tattoo and glamour were primary. Then, Onanism. Talk about contradictory definitions.) But take "passion", for instance. 12, count them. 12 definitions!!! (My default dictionary is Dictionary.com, the app.) Which leads me to the next point.

3. The Passion of the Christ. You mentioned, Get Out. Can't properly comment, haven't seen it. But the previews spoke volumes and then I overheard some comments about it and thought, "That's not a surprise." But I would still need to see it and now that you have, I will. But, I'm willing to bet you've seen the Passion of the Christ. If you have, then this can be a comparison. But until you confirm, I'll just give a brief comment.

You might not believe this, but I haven't actually seen The Passion of the Christ. I like movies with a lot of dialogue that I can understand...

4. Enemies. My simple answer is, "don't have any. Problem solved." But then I stopped and thought about it. I have this saying about forgiveness. "Forgiveness does one thing and one thing only. It removes the guilty party from the death penalty. That's it." Now, we can "argue" that "definition" in another thread, or even this one. I think it's related to love. But I use this to help me avoid, thus, have no use for enemies. A simple summary of an enemy is someone I hate. But hate is spiritual murder.

What I had more in mind is the problem that arises when, even though we try to love others, it turns out those persons not only don't return the favor, but for no good reason they don't like us at all. In fact, they'd like to be rid of us; and that's the context of turmoil I was alluding to. Personally, I would find it difficult to love those who are strongly derisive of me, or to feel positive passion for them ... but that's the kicker, Christ presents to us the challenge, "You shall love your enemies..."

Peace,
2PhiloVoid

 

[2PhiloVoid]

WOW!! I did NOT think WW would be that level of entertaining!!! There were tears, there were burst-outs of, "YEAH, YES, YES!!!", coupled with fistpumping. There was even a, "YOU GO GIRL!"

You would think I would feel emasculated.....not so much. She was woman, and I smiled at her ROAR!!

I'm all kinds of Geeking out right now....lol

Yeah, I thought they did a decent job with the production of the W.W. movie.

But I did see the "love conquering all" thing coming, though.

However, it leads back to this love study and one other thing I noticed about love, the human variety...

Those who will lie to those they love and call it protection. But who does it really protect??? If it protects at all.

So, tough question:

If faced with telling a painful truth vs telling a pleasurable lie to a person you have a deep, caring, and passionate affection for (and I WILL finish that passion commentary...lol), which would you do?

...oh, so...you want me to lie about lying? Well, I think the best answer is to say that we should live life such a way that we honor our relationships and don't find ourselves pushed into a situation where we will be tempted to lie. [How's that for weaseling my way out?]

Peace,
2PhiloVoid

 

[GosDontez]

...that's a good one, really. Love doesn't always come 'ready made' in all cases. It's not necessarily 'plug and play.'

Ok. Here we go! ... (...hands wave in the air and voices scream as the roller-coast makes the plunge on the first big dip!)

No problem; its not as if I'm not also in need of Grammerly myself. But, just getting the ideas down into a workable place is half the battle.

Why is it that when you say this, Seventies Pastiche immediately comes to mind?

Gift or Right? It may be both simultaneously, but the extent to which it is either one or the other at any given time depend on the relationship or social context involved.

Interesting insight.

Awesome idea.

Simultaneous. Yes, I think so too.

...that wasn't one of those Borg episodes, was it?

yeah, I suppose that is the pay-off of lust...

Well, Gos, it seems you've got quite the general 'taxonomy' in the works here. There's lots to think about in this raw material. In just reading through this post, I felt some concepts expanding in my head..... (Love Cake, anyone?)

Peace,
2PhiloVoid

p.s. I'll try to get to some of your subsequent posts tomorrow....

(Delivering pizzas. But I appreciate you reading all that.)

 

[GosDontez]

lol all I would say on the topic would fill several books. However, you never once showed an understanding that there are two kinds of love being talked about which is where you and I are having communication problems. Remember when I asked you to respond to what I said and you did nothing to reflect an understanding of the two different loves only that your definition included passion...? I'm still waiting for you to say anything that reflects what I said about the differences between the two loves...still waiting... Love perseveres...I had a woman once tell me that no one could Love like I do. It gets me in a lot of trouble sometimes but I do live what I preach as much as is possible. he does good enough without your help. Just for the record, all I asked from you was some sign that you understood that there was a difference between worldly love and Biblical Love and I am still waiting for that evidence that you understand. Even the strict Biblical view should include an understanding of worldly love and how they differ, why they differ, etc. there are not as many similarities as you might think but I am about to leave so that is a discussion for another time. If you noticed in my posts I talked about both loves so not sure why you would think I don't agree that we should talk about both. see, here is where you are wrong. Man's love has emotion/affection at it's core whereas Biblical Love has at it's core humility. Huge difference. We evidence this in several ways not the least of which is "Love your enemies". this one I want to come back to when I have more time...I know what I want to say but lack the time to say it effectively. If I forget please remind me. Again, not sure I will get back to it tonight but hopefully tomorrow we can talk about the truthfulness of Love.

Thanks.

 

[GosDontez]

I can understand your wanting to approach this more expansively, but maybe it's due to my somewhat secluded and dysfunctional upbringing, but I'm kind of partial to the Christ Love thing, apart from other manfifestations of love. But, I could be wrong about my more narrow view.

You might not believe this, but I haven't actually seen The Passion of the Christ. I like movies with a lot of dialogue that I can understand...

What I had more in mind is the problem that arises when, even though we try to love others, it turns out those persons not only don't return the favor, but for no good reason they don't like us at all. In fact, they'd like to be rid of us; and that's the context of turmoil I was alluding to. Personally, I would find it difficult to love those who are strongly derisive of me, or to feel positive passion for them ... but that's the kicker, Christ presents to us the challenge, "You shall love your enemies..."

Peace,
2PhiloVoid

Ahhh...I see. Difficult to love, but not impossible. I definitely get that!!!

But this was before I realized the difference between Christ ordering us to feel love vs commanding us to perform love, based on his example.

But, gotta finish delivering pizzas. I wanna continue this, though. And I do have to finish that passion commentary I began.

I have a question about your "positive passion" comment. Is there "negative passion"? I was on an elevator when I read that and asked this random lady who was there did she think there was both positive and negative passion.

She initially said no. But then said, "I don't know."

(Gonna be working til Sunday, so you may not hear from me til then.)

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Ahhh...I see. Difficult to love, but not impossible. I definitely get that!!!

But this was before I realized the difference between Christ ordering us to feel love vs commanding us to perform love, based on his example.

But, gotta finish delivering pizzas. I wanna continue this, though. And I do have to finish that passion commentary I began.

I have a question about your "positive passion" comment. Is there "negative passion"? I was on an elevator when I read that and asked this random lady who was there did she think there was both positive and negative passion.

She initially said no. But then said, "I don't know."

(Gonna be working til Sunday, so you may not hear from me til then.)

Hey Gos,

By positive passion, I'm just attempting to refer to all of the myriad feelings of intense amiableness and care that can arise in the context of 'love,' as opposed to negative passion which will pertain to perhaps feelings of anger or discontent that could be a part of 'love' as well. In the way in which I'm attempting to classify positive and negative passion as they may relate to 'love,' I'm proposing that we conceptualize these forms of passion in clear opposition to the mere hatred of another person.

I'm not sure if I'm making sense, but this is what I have in mind. You can tell me if the above needs to be tidied up at all.

 

[GosDontez]

I understand what you mean. I am the same way. Thinking things over makes for better, brighter, less negative conversation. I am off to bed soon too, but if I remember tomorrow I would be more than happy to back track I find this thread fascinating

Hello again, Zoey.

I decided to go ahead and write that "definition" I came up with, instead of you having to read all the replies to this thread.

I began a love study to see what it is to various people. As I received so many different responses, I formulated a basic observational "definition" that seemed to be a common "thread".

"Love is a deep, caring, and passionate affection for someone or something based on some sort of attraction or relational connection."

There you go.....so what do you think?

 

[ZoeyLouLou]

Hello again, Zoey.

I decided to go ahead and write that "definition" I came up with, instead of you having to read all the replies to this thread.

I began a love study to see what it is to various people. As I received so many different responses, I formulated a basic observational "definition" that seemed to be a common "thread".

"Love is a deep, caring, and passionate affection for someone or something based on some sort of attraction or relational connection."

There you go.....so what do you think?

I like it. But it's not a verb, nor a combination of noun and verb. It is just a noun. Biblical love is not a noun alone, my friend

 

[GosDontez]

Hey Gos,

By positive passion, I'm just attempting to refer to all of the myriad feelings of intense amiableness and care that can arise in the context of 'love,' as opposed to negative passion which will pertain to perhaps feelings of anger or discontent that could be a part of 'love' as well. In the way in which I'm attempting to classify positive and negative passion as they may relate to 'love,' I'm proposing that we conceptualize these forms of passion in clear opposition to the mere hatred of another person.

I'm not sure if I'm making sense, but this is what I have in mind. You can tell me if the above needs to be tidied up at all.

Hmmmm. I think I see what you're saying. Would this be a fair summary:

"Good, biblical, Christ-based passion sometimes include anger and discontent (Be angry, but don't sin. Ephesians 4:26)

But mere hatred, even though a passion, is murder (1 John 3:15) and not Good, biblical, or Christ-like. And we need to be clear on these two distinctions."

(Even as I wrote this, it feels off.)

Am I even close?

 

[GosDontez]

I like it. But it's not a verb, nor a combination of noun and verb. It is just a noun. Biblical love is not a noun alone, my friend

Ok, see now you GOTTA read the other replies. Because I originally posted this definition as just a noun, but was told, rather emphatically, that it wasn't.

So I removed the whole noun and verb designations altogether then reposted.

But apparently, this person said I made the problem worse.

So I'm confused.

Let's dialogue. "You game?"

 

[GosDontez]

Yeah, I thought they did a decent job with the production of the W.W. movie.

...oh, so...you want me to lie about lying? Well, I think the best answer is to say that we should live life such a way that we honor our relationships and don't find ourselves pushed into a situation where we will be tempted to lie. [How's that for weaseling my way out?]

Peace,
2PhiloVoid

Weasel away, my brother. Weasel away....lol

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Hmmmm. I think I see what you're saying. Would this be a fair summary:

"Good, biblical, Christ-based passion sometimes include anger and discontent (Be angry, but don't sin. Ephesians 4:26)

But mere hatred, even though a passion, is murder (1 John 3:15) and not Good, biblical, or Christ-like. And we need to be clear on these two distinctions."

(Even as I wrote this, it feels off.)

Am I even close?

Yes, I think you've got a very good grasp of what I'm trying to say. If there's any ambiguity here, it's my fault because I don't think I quite formulated my thoughts on it in just the right way, but it is something along these lines.

So, where do you feel like you are with your project on 'love' thus far, Gos?

Peace

 

[GosDontez]

Yes, I think you've got a very good grasp of what I'm trying to say. If there's any ambiguity here, it's my fault because I don't think I quite formulated my thoughts on it in just the right way, but it is something along these lines.

So, where do you feel like you are with your project on 'love' thus far, Gos?

Peace

The ambiguity? I understand VERY well. Even as I wrote my reply asking if I were close, I was smack dab in the middle of it.

If there is one thing I realized as I began making a habit out of looking up words to verify their meaning, it's learning about the multiple definitions for so many words. Not to mention the horror of the ones that contradict.

This is one of the problems I mentioned earlier, which, to me, explains our constant quagmiring into ambiguity. How do you pick the right word when they often "mean" at least two different things?

As far as the study goes, three places:

1. At the place where it's already been settled by God who came up with the concept, at least in understanding the definition. Which is why I maintain that it's not hard to define.

2. Still on the journey to "perfect" love in action where fear doesn't rule and not even part of the equation. Which is why I maintain that it's harder to do because it's often painful, but not impossible.

3. Trapped.......in two middle places. Between God's version of love and humanity's version (which doesn't bother me as much). But also in the frustration stemming from the war of Christian vs Christian. The arrogant Christians vs the humble Christians.

Morpheus, from the Matrix movie, said it best:

"Neo, sooner or later you're going to realize, just as I did, that there's a difference between knowing the path....and walking the path."

It reminds me of what James said about being a doer of the Word and not a hearer only.

Because it is so hard to DO Christian love, that in itself should make one humble and focus on doing it.

But when I see arrogant Christians lauding themselves, essentially boasting, yet then I look at the world and how so much rage consumes, I find myself asking, "Where are the Christians? They have the answer!!"

This is when the problem hits you right between the eyes.

According to statistics, there are more Christians in America than any other believers, and more on the entire planet. So why is there more hate?

It dawned on me that there are far more arrogant Christians than there are humble Christians. Just look at how many denominations there are and I think you see my point. (Now I understand why the "harvest is ripe but the laborers are few".)

So...since love is the greatest commandment by Christ Jesus, I wanted to know what people think it is. Especially, Christians.

Because if "we" aren't doing it humbly and right, then why should the rest of the world?

So....here I am.

 

[razzelflabben]

When it comes to protection as a result of someone loved, "man" will lie to the loved one(s). And it's usually to avoid some level of causing or experiencing pain that the truth would cause.

But God will not lie to protect. At least, not that I have read or experienced. From my understanding, God protects by telling the truth, no matter how much pain it will cause.

If I'm seeing clearly, then at least the main reason would be because lies don't truly protect.

But....I could be wrong.

What a morning...so I wanted to put more time into the idea of lying. The reason I wanted to put more time into it is because I wanted to be more specific, more narrow in my response.

As previously stated, Biblical Love always speaks truth. I Cor. 13 says that Love rejoices in truth. Further we are told to speak the truth in Love. That does not mean saying anything that we deem truth then tack on "I say this in Love" but rather Love has a goal. If you remember the first definition I gave you, the goal or purpose of Love is reconciliation/restoration first to God then to one another. If that goal isn't in place the truth is not being spoken in Love and becomes a tool of Satan.

Now, a bit more specific. Right now in our class we are looking into how to Love in our various relationships. Currently we are talking about marital Love. Ephesians 5 tells us that the husband is to Love the wife as Christ Loved the Church. He Loved the church with brutal honesty. IOW's what is hidden was intended to be revealed. There are no secrets between God and His bride, the Church. There are many scriptures that talk about this. So how can we apply this practically? Well, some years ago our marriage was on the brink, one of the things that we had to learn was painfully honest communication. That one lesson was one of the key factors into saving our marriage. My husband had been withholding stuff because he knew it would hurt me. What he didn't realize was that withholding hurts more. I cannot even tell you how many people whose marriages are floundering that tell me, "if only he/she would tell me what is going on we could work it out together"...if only...if only they could be brutally honest no matter how much it hurts they could work it out together! Even in the Church we are told to confess one to another so that we can pray for and encourage one another unto growth and maturity but we are so busy making excuses like not wanting to hurt someone else that we never discover the beauty and strength in brutal honesty.

 

[razzelflabben]

Well, not everyone's race is at the same pace.

And congratulations on what you've been taught.

Obviously and obviously very few people have put the time into the topic that I have. Which basically makes me an expert of sorts on the topic.

 

[razzelflabben]

The ambiguity? I understand VERY well. Even as I wrote my reply asking if I were close, I was smack dab in the middle of it.

If there is one thing I realized as I began making a habit out of looking up words to verify their meaning, it's learning about the multiple definitions for so many words. Not to mention the horror of the ones that contradict.

This is one of the problems I mentioned earlier, which, to me, explains our constant quagmiring into ambiguity. How do you pick the right word when they often "mean" at least two different things?

As far as the study goes, three places:

1. At the place where it's already been settled by God who came up with the concept, at least in understanding the definition. Which is why I maintain that it's not hard to define.

2. Still on the journey to "perfect" love in action where fear doesn't rule and not even part of the equation. Which is why I maintain that it's harder to do because it's often painful, but not impossible.

3. Trapped.......in two middle places. Between God's version of love and humanity's version (which doesn't bother me as much). But also in the frustration stemming from the war of Christian vs Christian. The arrogant Christians vs the humble Christians.

Morpheus, from the Matrix movie, said it best:

"Neo, sooner or later you're going to realize, just as I did, that there's a difference between knowing the path....and walking the path."

It reminds me of what James said about being a doer of the Word and not a hearer only.

Because it is so hard to DO Christian love, that in itself should make one humble and focus on doing it.

But when I see arrogant Christians lauding themselves, essentially boasting, yet then I look at the world and how so much rage consumes, I find myself asking, "Where are the Christians? They have the answer!!"

This is when the problem hits you right between the eyes.

According to statistics, there are more Christians in America than any other believers, and more on the entire planet. So why is there more hate?

It dawned on me that there are far more arrogant Christians than there are humble Christians. Just look at how many denominations there are and I think you see my point. (Now I understand why the "harvest is ripe but the laborers are few".)

So...since love is the greatest commandment by Christ Jesus, I wanted to know what people think it is. Especially, Christians.

Because if "we" aren't doing it humbly and right, then why should the rest of the world?

So....here I am.

this is exactly why God called me to full time study of Biblical Love and as a result to teach it, because Christians have no real understanding (by and large) of what it is or why it's important.

 

[razzelflabben]

Hmmmm. I think I see what you're saying. Would this be a fair summary:

"Good, biblical, Christ-based passion sometimes include anger and discontent (Be angry, but don't sin. Ephesians 4:26)

But mere hatred, even though a passion, is murder (1 John 3:15) and not Good, biblical, or Christ-like. And we need to be clear on these two distinctions."

(Even as I wrote this, it feels off.)

Am I even close?

Scripture says, that God Loved Jacob but hated Esau...Romans 9:13...likewise we are told to hate our family and follow Christ....Luke 14:26...the point is this: Hate is a strong emotion but is NOT the opposite of Love. Most people have no grasp of this concept because they only see love by the worlds definition of love. The opposite of Biblical Love is pride which is why Love and hate can coexist. Now that does NOT mean that we are to hate our brother as in murder again, two different means. BTW when there are multiple meanings to a word we have only context to clarify what is intended, another one of those things that most people try to avoid like the plague when it comes to the Bible.

 

[razzelflabben]

Ok, see now you GOTTA read the other replies. Because I originally posted this definition as just a noun, but was told, rather emphatically, that it wasn't.

So I removed the whole noun and verb designations altogether then reposted.

But apparently, this person said I made the problem worse.

So I'm confused.

Let's dialogue. "You game?"

actually you were told the same thing this poster is saying and you aren't listening. Biblical Love is beyond noun, verb, adjective, adverb etc. distinctions. It's a category all on it's own so to speak. So to Speak! Because Biblical Love is supernatural it does NOT fit the natural way of doing things including but not limited to defining it.

 

[GosDontez]

Obviously and obviously very few people have put the time into the topic that I have. Which basically makes me an expert of sorts on the topic.

What was that thing you mentioned about humility?

How does that work again, in relation to love?

 

[razzelflabben]

What was that thing you mentioned about humility?

How does that work again, in relation to love?

The core of Love is humility. Start with Philippians 2:3. Putting others above yourself is where Love begins and that can only happen if we are truly humble.

C.S. Lewis says this about humility...humility is not thinking less of yourself but thinking of yourself less. This is the example Christ gave and is the very core of Love. Think of it as a wheel. The center of the wheel is humility and all the other things that are Love, the characteristics, the emotion, etc. are the spokes of the wheel. Without humility the other things are meaningless.

Now don't confuse that with the source of Love which is God, in the analogy God is the power that turns the wheel.