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What is it to be a True Believer?

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Fervent

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So do you believe that God is going to judge me adversely if I love someone who isn't actually my neighbor? Somehow I don't find that to be in keeping with the philosophy of His Son.
Depends on what you mean by "love". Sometimes love requires us to speak harsh truths and not play into people's delusions for fear of hurting their feelings. Love is not simply empathy or an emotion, sometimes it requires we intervene and draw lines in the sand.
 
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timothyu

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But if you don't mind, I think that I'll stick with Micah 6:8.
Absolutely. That is what Jesus said His church would be built upon, the truth of the Father, not of man. This is where discernment comes in as man has done a good job of making Christianity over in our own image.
 
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partinobodycular

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Sometimes love requires us to speak harsh truths and not play into people's delusions for fear of hurting their feelings.

Which is exactly the type of love that I've been demonstrating over the last few posts. But love is also patient, so if you don't realize it right away, that's fine. It's not my job to do you, it's my job to do me.
 
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Astrid

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Nothing the Gospel of the Kingdom doesn't clearly state in scripture. Not so much found in the religion though created in man's image..
Ifn its so clear, why are there 40,000 sects?
 
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Fervent

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Which is exactly the type of love that I've been demonstrating over the last few posts. But love is also patient, so if you don't realize it right away, that's fine. It's not my job to do you, it's my job to do me.
Have you though? Perhaps you share the same love of neighbor that I do and belong to the same Master, but it seems to me that truly loving another person depends on helping them to sift through the graveyard that is knowledge so-called and reveal that Trith is Truth no matter what we call it, but that to say more than that it is Truth we must have some external source for our understanding. The question "does God exist?" isn't a meaningful one, because God's existence is tautological. The real question is what is the best way to come to know what God is like, and ultimately that requires us to accept something purely on the basis of faith. The fallibility of our reasoning remains, but God provides us with a foundation to sort various statements by ranking the likelyhood of their truth. So what is your foundation for discovering Truth?
 
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partinobodycular

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So what is your foundation for discovering Truth?

I already told you that... I'm a solipsist. There's that which I can know to be true, and there's that which I can't.

So my path to discovering 'Truth' lies in being honest enough with myself, so as to recognize the difference between the two, no matter how much I have to discard in the process. Because what's left, is the Truth.
 
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timothyu

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Ifn its so clear, why are there 40,000 sects?
Because they are not focused on the Kingdom and the will of God but upon themselves and how it pertains to them. They seek kindred ears to tickle and self justify their backwards ways even within Christianity. 8 billion at present seeking to self justify their own will, even using God to do so. The Adversary and adversarial man have no interest in the Kingdom where 'self' and all it entails is no longer allowed.
 
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Fervent

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I already told you that... I'm a solipsist. There's that which I can know to be true, and there's that which I can't.
That seems to me to be a bridge we shouldn't cross, though I'm more of a pragmatist when it comes to my faith. Do I know it is true in a technical sense? No, I am still dependent on my ability to reason and cannot escape that reality. I know God can be found in the texts of the Bible, but I can conceptualize various models of history depending on what it is I am hoping to inquire about.
So my path to discovering 'Truth' lies in being honest enough with myself, so as to recognize the difference between the two, no matter how much I have to discard in the process. Because what's left, is the Truth.
Except if you are a solipsist, it would seem that you have no basis for disagreeing with me or anyone else because you've accepted the proposition that the only demonstrable fact is your own personal existence. You and I are close in our positions, I have just accepted that there are two things I can be reasonably certain of: that truth exists, and that I exist. Truth is just another name for God, and the best we can do without an external authority is wallow around in the dung heap that is human boast of knowledge. I know Truth is found in the Bible, but whether or not that is the sole place to find Truth I cannot say for certain. The name of my God is "He IS", in Hebrew that is YHWH. I know of Him not because I have developed a grand argument or theoretical understanding but only because of the history of prophetic revelation that found its fullness in the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. All of which have a reasonable circumstantial case to stand on.
 
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partinobodycular

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it would seem that you have no basis for disagreeing with me or anyone else because you've accepted the proposition that the only demonstrable fact is your own personal existence.

Actually that's another one of the misconceptions about solipsists, that the only thing that they can be certain of is their own personal existence.

For example, I know that you exist, at least as an interlocutor on my computer screen, both of which may only exist within my own mind. But nonetheless, you both exist, and it would be illogical for me to argue that you don't. Following that line of reasoning there are a great many things that I know exist, including the laws by which they behave, because it's their adherence to these laws that allows them to form coherent and recognizable entities. Those laws may be as simple as the Principle of Sufficient Reason, or as complex as Einstein's Theory of Relativity. But they have to be there.

So you see, a solipsist's worldview isn't as simple as it might at first appear, and within that worldview comes the inevitable question of... where did it all come from?

That's a tough one, and I'm apt to be a bit skeptical whenever someone claims to know something that they can't actually know. Now faith can be a wonderful thing, but believing that something is true, and knowing that it's true are two different things.

Therefore I choose to believe in the commandment to 'Love thy neighbor as thyself', because that's a hill that I'm willing to die on... or a cross, if you'll forgive the presumption.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Actually that's another one of the misconceptions about solipsists, that the only thing that they can be certain of is their own personal existence.

For example, I know that you exist, at least as an interlocutor on my computer screen, both of which may only exist within my own mind. But nonetheless, you both exist, and it would be illogical for me to argue that you don't. Following that line of reasoning there are a great many things that I know exist, including the laws by which they behave, because it's their adherence to these laws that allows them to form coherent and recognizable entities. Those laws may be as simple as the Principle of Sufficient Reason, or as complex as Einstein's Theory of Relativity. But they have to be there.

So you see, a solipsist's worldview isn't as simple as it might at first appear, and within that worldview comes the inevitable question of... where did it all come from?

That's a tough one, and I'm apt to be a bit skeptical whenever someone claims to know something that they can't actually know. Now faith can be a wonderful thing, but believing that something is true, and knowing that it's true are two different things.

Therefore I choose to believe in the commandment to 'Love thy neighbor as thyself', because that's a hill that I'm willing to die on... or a cross, if you'll forgive the presumption.

I don't think you qualify as a solipsist, unless....................................you think you're allowed to make up your own definition of solipsism.

Is that what you're doing here? Somehow, I don't think the evidence of your writing shows that you're a true solipsist.

You could be an independent thinker, however. ;)
 
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partinobodycular

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I don't think you qualify as a solipsist, unless....................................you think you're allowed to make up your own definition of solipsism.

I totally get where you're coming from, and perhaps I should've clarified that I'm an epistemological solipsist, but you're welcome to define me however you see fit. You probably have a much better grasp of the philosophical nuances than my 9th grade education has provided me.

But independent thinker, that works for me as well. I'm just lucky if I can avoid sounding totally stupid. :help:
 
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2PhiloVoid

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I totally get where you're coming from, and perhaps I should've clarified that I'm an epistemological solipsist, but you're welcome to define me however you see fit. You probably have a much better grasp of the philosophical nuances than my 9th grade education has provided me.
No, I won't be defining you 'as I see fit' since the structure of my epistemological position doesn't really allow me that privilege. :p
But independent thinker, that works for me as well. I'm just lucky if I can avoid sounding totally stupid. :help:

I think most of us here know you're not stupid. It's pretty obvious you're not.
 
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Astrid

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Because they are not focused on the Kingdom and the will of God but upon themselves and how it pertains to them. They seek kindred ears to tickle and self justify their backwards ways even within Christianity. 8 billion at present seeking to self justify their own will, even using God to do so. The Adversary and adversarial man have no interest in the Kingdom where 'self' and all it entails is no longer allowed.

Seems the true believer is whoever says he himSELF -unlike all those others- is undeceived.

Se suggest careful review of exactly what is meant by
” take not the name of thy lord in vain”
 
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Fervent

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Actually that's another one of the misconceptions about solipsists, that the only thing that they can be certain of is their own personal existence.
You're the first person I've encountered who willingly takes on the classification of solipsist.
For example, I know that you exist, at least as an interlocutor on my computer screen, both of which may only exist within my own mind. But nonetheless, you both exist, and it would be illogical for me to argue that you don't. Following that line of reasoning there are a great many things that I know exist, including the laws by which they behave, because it's their adherence to these laws that allows them to form coherent and recognizable entities. Those laws may be as simple as the Principle of Sufficient Reason, or as complex as Einstein's Theory of Relativity. But they have to be there.
That's hardly solipsistic, and it seems to misunderstand the idea of illusion within philosophy. It isn't about whether anything "exists" but whether or not how they appear can be taken as reliable or if anything can reliably be said about such experiences. Given your willingness to dive in head first into calling yourself a solipsist, it would seem to me you have abandoned reason since none of what you know can be held to be reliable.
So you see, a solipsist's worldview isn't as simple as it might at first appear, and within that worldview comes the inevitable question of... where did it all come from?
Typically, when I've heard something described as solipsistic is it not intended as a description of a person's worldview but as a criticism of what commitment to a given proposition entails. As you are the only person I have ever encountered who self-describes as a solipsist I will have to take your word for what the "solipsist worldview" is. Though it would seem that the nature of solipsism would preclude mutual agreement on the entailments of solipsism as that would be an oxymoron.
That's a tough one, and I'm apt to be a bit skeptical whenever someone claims to know something that they can't actually know. Now faith can be a wonderful thing, but believing that something is true, and knowing that it's true are two different things.
That's a whole tangled mess, but knowledge as is commonly used does not require certainty or immaculate and unquestionable justification. It is simple enough to argue that there is warrant for believing in one proposition over another. Faith is a gap filler, where reason is unable to accomplish the task of getting us from our internal experiences to reliable information about the world. It attains the level of common sense knowledge, in that there is a clear and discernable line that connects the facts we can establish together. Knowledge doesn't require epistemic certainty, it merely requires warranted belief.
Therefore I choose to believe in the commandment to 'Love thy neighbor as thyself', because that's a hill that I'm willing to die on... or a cross, if you'll forgive the presumption.
I stand on my experiences, though I am not always quick to share because doing so would be casting my pearls before swine. I am content to preach the gospel, and leave God to sort out the details. Faith to me is a surrender to God's descending plea, not a move from me to God. I can reasonably call this knowledge not because I have epistemic certainty, but because if God as I define Him does not exist then it would seem that tautologies can be false. And if tautologies can be false, then nothing can be said to be true.
 
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Fervent

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Self evident?
It certainly isn't self-evident, but then again whether there is anything that is self-evident isn't apparent. More appropriately, God's existence is self-referential. It is true in the same way that A=A is true.
From my perspective the Bible,and far more so the Book of Mormon,
its the opposite.
The truth of the Bible is a confouning mess, but that's not surprising considering what is written in the Bible.
Surely one would expect the Perfect one
to be a better writer.
Why would one expect such a thing? The Bible states that He ntended to hide it from the wisdom of the world and reveal it to those who are innocent as babes. The hiddenness of God is not an argument against God if we take our description of what God would and wouldn't do from the Bible rather than beginning with philosophical intuitions.
Self evident is that it’s the work of men.
It is undeniably human, with the flaws and foibles of any other document. But somewhere in there is the God named Truth. Whether that is His exclusive revelation, or if He can be found in other places is a matter of debate. But epistemology depends on something being true by way of self-reference, and the universe or cosmos or whatever name creation is called by cannot stand on its own but instead requires us to begin with synthetic rather than analytic propositions.
 
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JEBofChristTheLord

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I assume you are referring to his saying there will be no marriage in the resurrection. That is because all the eternally binding ordinances will have already been performed prior to the resurrection. Same with baptism and such. Asking to whom one will be sealed in the resurrection is akin to asking what will be planted in the day of harvest. It's non applicable.
According to Christ the Lord, those that live in eternity, that are counted worthy of that age, have no marriage at all, regardless of marriages that occurred previously.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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That's not at all what he said. It is your own extrapolation of his words.

By whose hermeneutical standard and praxis are you saying this? Who made you the expert? Do you have any professional references or sources on Hemeneutics and Biblical Exegesis that the rest of us should look into and learn from?

So far, I'm just hearing a swan song from you.
 
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Astrid

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The denominations set themselves up as lights, misdirecting men from God to themselves. That there are tens of thousands of different ones among them is proof not of God, but of their rejection of God. In it, God is everywhere and nowhere. So where is their binding authority. Does their saying and doing make it right? Is everything that men say and do, made right simply by having said and done it? They defer to the words of others in scripture, because they have no words of their own. They announce the God of others in scripture, having no God of their own. They assume that to believe what Peter knew is to know what Peter knew. It is gossip which they make into a religion which is all image or cosplay. Why does God allow this? Is it so that we might learn to distinguish between truth and error. While God lives and the biblical testimony is true, the religion of Christianity is essentially delusional. They have hijacked the truth.
Q? How do you know that those who disagree with
you do so for base and ignoble reasons?

A. You dont

Q. So, why accuseth thou them?
 
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Astrid

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What contradictions? I'm fully aware that God is real, that he lives and is divine, and that my true life is in his spirit rather than in myself or in my life alone. He is my God and judge, my life, light and consolation. He is my refiner, planter, and sifter of my treasure. He is my husband, father, savior, and friend. He is my trainer, hero, and hope. He is the only person who has ever known me completely and loved me anyway. He has lived his gospel, laying down his life, and even now delays judgment, blessing his enemies and doing good to them, including to myself.
I can’t see a true believer actually being someone
who believes things that are not true.

Reality contradicts the flood story,
if you seek a contradiction.
 
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