What is God?

[DogmaHunter]

* Attend a church service
* Talk to people at that church about the experience you've just shared with them (again, I'm recommending the LCMS since I am LCMS)
* Read the Bible
* Pray
* Repeat - It's going to take time.

Or....

* attend a mosque service
* talk to muslims about the experience you've just shared with them
* read the quran
* pray
* repeat - it's going to take time.


Your method fails miserably.

 

[Resha Caner]

Or....

* attend a mosque service
* talk to muslims about the experience you've just shared with them
* read the quran
* pray
* repeat - it's going to take time.


Your method fails miserably.

All you did was copy and substitute. You didn't articulate in what way you think it fails.

Identifying yourself as a christian tells me a great deal about the things you invoke faith for.

Just like if I would identify myself as a muslim - you'ld also have a pretty good idea about the shenannigans I would believe in that case.

Why do you pretend this isn't the case?

Because you have made statements about my faith that are incorrect. But, if everything is clear to you, there's really no need for you to be discussing this with me.

But again, what will convince me that a god actually exists will be an objective demonstration of that god's existence. Not anecdotes or unverifiable experiences and interpretations thereof.

Then why are you here discussing it? Why aren't you out seeking the evidence you want?

I'm trying to make you realise that you have no solid foundation for the things that you believe.

Is this the reason you're here? So, the Internet won't work to convince you God exists, but it will work to convince me an experience I had for which you were not present and have no details wasn't real? Hmm. Good luck with that.

This is why I draw parallels with other religions.
This is why I bring to your attention that other people of different religions have the exact same type of experiences as you do. They give the exact same arguments as you do. They make the exact same claims as you do.

This is an example of a flawed statement about my faith. I am well aware of the devotion other people have to their beliefs. I am convinced there are devoted Muslims just as much as I am convinced you are a devoted atheist. But the experiences, the arguments, and the claims are not the same. To say they are the same simply shows what you don't know about religion.

Yet, somehow, when people reason about why we don't go floating into space after jumping, it doesn't matter what region of the world they come from, what their cultural background is,... All of them conclude that gravity is the best explanation.

How do you explain that?

OK. This could be fun, so I'll play along. Is "gravity" more than a reiteration of an observation? In other words, is it more than an ex post facto statement?

It's not special pleading. I'm not part of the religion game.

I'm afraid it is, whether you want to admit it or not. Are you saying you are special, and that the statistically significant views of your geographic area have no affect on you?

What does it say about the validity of a religion if the vast majority of its followers are only followers due to cultural tradition?
What does it say about your faith in christianity?
Would you still have this faith if you would have born and living and Pakistan?
Would you still attribute your experiences to Jesus, or would you rather be attributing them to Allah?

You're just repeating your argument, not addressing the issue of special pleading.

1) If people follow a religion because of cultural tradition, then they are following a religion because of cultural tradition. Depending on what that religion specifically says, it would often mean they don't really believe that religion. What is that supposed to prove? Why would I be upset about people not believing Islam or Hinduism? Are there likely many people attending Christian churches who don't believe? Sure. But as long as they are there, I can hope they will believe.

2) Would I be Christian had I been born in Pakistan? I don't know. Would I be a frog if I had been born in Pakistan? Those two questions have about the same value. Are you going to claim there are no Christians in Pakistan? It is possible for people in Pakistan to be Christian. If you are implying that the statistical average of a population applies to the whole population or that it can predict the outcome for a specific individual, then you need to better understand statistics. Is there a larger pressure in Pakistan to become Muslim than Christian? Sure. Is that pressure coercive? Much evidence suggests it is. Does my church support such coercion? No. So if this is not a case where you misunderstand my church (my faith), then this example simply doesn't apply. Coercion is not faith.

And a muslim would give me schedules of mosque services. So what?
I've been to churches (and mosques). I didn't see anything there that was of any value.

How many times? Did you just watch or did you participate? Did you talk to the people there? I would suggest you need to try again. My youngest son has a tendency to do this. He plays baseball once or a musical instrument once, and then says, "See, I can't do that."

There's no unit to measure that.
However, I can deduce how much a person cares for me by their actions and how they treat me.

Yes. So don't ask me for a measure or a logical construct. You'll need to know God for yourself.

I objected to your accusation that I don't trust "any christian".

Context, friend. If there is a Christian who speaks about God and you believe what he says is true, then that's great.

 

[leftrightleftrightleft]

Yes, that's fair.

I would start with definition #4 here:
Person | Define Person at Dictionary.com

Makes sense. Yes.

God can "speak" to people in a variety of ways. Yes, He can speak audibly - which would be the literal method you're asking about. "Speak" can also be a more figurative term, meaning via his Word or Sacraments, through signs, or even through other people (prophets).

If God were to speak audibly, where does the sound originate from?

Sound requires oscillating pressure waves that travel through a medium such as air. So, if the sound were audible, the pressure wave must originate somewhere and then travel through the air.

In one way, He's not different. Just as you suggested sending someone to the store to smell cinnamon, I'm suggesting you go to church.

Fair enough. But isn't he posited to be everywhere? The smell of cinnamon is not posited to be everywhere at all times.

If the cinnamon smell were everywhere at all times, I would not need you to go to the store, I would simply need you to inhale through your nose and smell it.

In another way, He is different. As I said, God is not my trick pony. I can't give you a formula for a person.

With every other person I have ever known, there is an easy formula to meet them. Why is God different? Why is he so coy or shy or difficult to meet and get to know?

Why does he make himself so annoyingly difficult to meet?

...perhaps its because he does not exist? Its really hard to meet someone who doesn't exist...

 

[DogmaHunter]

All you did was copy and substitute. You didn't articulate in what way you think it fails.

If you have a methodology that people from rivaling religions use to come to rivaling conclusions, the methodology fails.

Because you have made statements about my faith that are incorrect.

Nothing stops you from correcting my assumptions. I'm always happy to learn new things.

Then why are you here discussing it? Why aren't you out seeking the evidence you want?

I'm asking theists on this forum. Don't assume that this is the only place I frequent. Nore that it is the first.

I even created a special thread to ask people "why the bible?" while mentioning that I require an objective and / or rationally reasoned answer that doesn't assume the answers before asking the question.

I can't help it if every single one of you fail provide what I'm asking for.

And no, after 10 years of asking these questions and receiving no answer, I no longer expect anyone to be able to give me an answer. But, I love being surprised. So... surprise me.

Is this the reason you're here?

Perhaps partially. There are many reasons why I'm here.
I could write an entire essay about why I'm here. But I don't see why my reasons to frequent forums like this are relevant. If you really wish to know, we could go in on it. I just don't see what the merrit of that exercise would be.

So, the Internet won't work to convince you God exists, but it will work to convince me an experience I had for which you were not present and have no details wasn't real?

I have stated on multiple occasions that I have no reason to doubt your sincerity. You should pay attention when you talk to people. Don't just listen to yourself.

This is an example of a flawed statement about my faith.

I didn't make a statement about your faith in that quote. I made a statement about the parallels of your faith with the faith of people of rivaling religions.
Which is something you have not addressed once, while I asked you about it many times now. Your dodging speaks volumes.

I am well aware of the devotion other people have to their beliefs. I am convinced there are devoted Muslims just as much as I am convinced you are a devoted atheist. But the experiences, the arguments, and the claims are not the same.

Having spend more then 10 years talking to people of all kinds of faiths (on forums, in chats, through emails, in person, in discussion panels,...) I can guarantee you that you haven't told me ANYTHING that I haven't already heared from muslims (to name just one).

Seriously, I'm not joking.

Even one of the most popular christian apologists, William Lane Craig, stole all his arguments from Al-Ghezali, which was a muslim philosopher.
Compare what WLC says with the presentations and debates from this guy called Hamza Tzortsis, which is a muslim.

Take a random argument from WLC, replace the words "jesus" with "mohammed" and "bible" with "quran" and you pretty much have exactly the same argument as those that Hamza presents.

I don't know what you think of WLC, but it's just an example. You folks DO use the exact same arguments and the exact same claims.

Again, for clarity: there is nothing in this entire exchange that you told me that I didn't already hear from muslims.

You all have your fantastical tails of limbs growing back, tumors dissappearing, praying for X and "then it happened", etc etc etc etc.

OK. This could be fun, so I'll play along. Is "gravity" more than a reiteration of an observation? In other words, is it more than an ex post facto statement.

Yes. Gravity is a force emitted by matter with mass.
This is not something you can observe. The only thing you can observe is the effect it has.

I'm afraid it is, whether you want to admit it or not. Are you saying you are special, and that the statistically significant views of your geographic area have no affect on you?

Yes. Because I'm not religious.
If I would be religious, statistically chances are quite enormous that I would be a catholic. But I'm not religious.

1) If people follow a religion because of cultural tradition, then they are following a religion because of cultural tradition. Depending on what that religion specifically says, it would often mean they don't really believe that religion.

You're skipping a few steps. Most people grow up being indoctrinated in a religion. Which religion that is is mostly a matter of cultural tradition and background. In the US, this would be christianity. In Pakistan, this would be Islam. In Tibet, this would be Buddhism. In India, this would be Hinduism.

2) Would I be Christian had I been born in Pakistan? I don't know

Common sense and statistics say: probably not. Most likely, you would have been a muslim.

. Would I be a frog if I had been born in Pakistan? Those two questions have about the same value.

Are you going to claim there are no Christians in Pakistan? It is possible for people in Pakistan to be Christian. If you are implying that the statistical average of a population applies to the whole population or that it can predict the outcome for a specific individual, then you need to better understand statistics.

If 90% of a country is muslim and you point at a random person of said country, then 9 times out of 10, that person will be a muslim.

So, most likely had you grown up in such a country, you'ld be a muslim

(90% figure is made up, I didn't look it up)

Is there a larger pressure in Pakistan to become Muslim than Christian? Sure. Is that pressure coercive? Much evidence suggests it is. Does my church support such coercion?

Your church would be unkown to you had you grown up in Pakistan. You wouldn't be a part of that church because you wouldn't be anywhere near it.

No. So if this is not a case where you misunderstand my church (my faith), then this example simply doesn't apply.

Are you playing stupid on purpose?

How many times? Did you just watch or did you participate? Did you talk to the people there? I would suggest you need to try again. My youngest son has a tendency to do this. He plays baseball once or a musical instrument once, and then says, "See, I can't do that."

I've done it enough times to know it's nonsense.

What you are asking of me starts to sound very much like I have to brainwash myself into believing it in order to believe it.

Yes. So don't ask me for a measure or a logical construct.

Deducing how they feel about me by the actions they engage in and how they treat me IS a logical construct.

That's the data that leads me to my conclusion.

Context, friend. If there is a Christian who speaks about God and you believe what he says is true, then that's great.

Wauw.
What a warped definition of "trust" you have, it's not even funny.

I trust my wife blindfolded. When she is wrong about something (and thus I don't believe what she believes to be true), then that doesn't mean that I don't trust her. It only means that I disagree.

 

[Resha Caner]

If you have a methodology that people from rivaling religions use to come to rivaling conclusions, the methodology fails.

Are you saying methodolgies must be flawless before you will consider them? If so, I'd like an example.

I can't help it if every single one of you fail provide what I'm asking for.

Or maybe you're asking the wrong question.

I didn't make a statement about your faith in that quote. I made a statement about the parallels of your faith with the faith of people of rivaling religions.
Which is something you have not addressed once, while I asked you about it many times now. Your dodging speaks volumes.

Which question do you think I haven't answered?

Yes. Gravity is a force emitted by matter with mass.
This is not something you can observe. The only thing you can observe is the effect it has.

So you believe in things you can't observe? This gets more and more interesting. Amongst these things you can't observe, how do you choose which ones you'll believe?

Yes. Because I'm not religious.
If I would be religious, statistically chances are quite enormous that I would be a catholic. But I'm not religious.

Why are you not religious? What is so special about you that others can't follow your path?

You're skipping a few steps. Most people grow up being indoctrinated in a religion.

Attempts are made to indoctrinate people in many ways: political parties, sports teams, food. Why is religion special? Would you say people are never indoctrinated into atheism?

Common sense and statistics say: probably not. Most likely, you would have been a muslim.

The statistics are what the statistics are. That does nothing to explain why someone is Muslim versus Christian.

If 90% of a country is muslim and you point at a random person of said country, then 9 times out of 10, that person will be a muslim.

You should read Asimov's Foundation Trilogy (though I see your profile says novels bore you). The entire plot revolves around how people with this attitude can make some very bad decisions.

Your church would be unkown to you had you grown up in Pakistan. You wouldn't be a part of that church because you wouldn't be anywhere near it.

You are incorrect.
Pakistan - The Lutheran Church—Missouri Synod

What you are asking of me starts to sound very much like I have to brainwash myself into believing it in order to believe it.

Do you think you had an experience that is similar to those who attended those churches?

I trust my wife blindfolded. When she is wrong about something (and thus I don't believe what she believes to be true), then that doesn't mean that I don't trust her. It only means that I disagree.

Semantics. If your wife insisted she was correct, and continued to behave according to what you believed was wrong, you would no longer trust her decisions on that matter.

 

[Resha Caner]

If God were to speak audibly, where does the sound originate from?

Sound requires oscillating pressure waves that travel through a medium such as air. So, if the sound were audible, the pressure wave must originate somewhere and then travel through the air.

I know the science. One of my engineering assignments was diesel engine acoustics. But I don't know how to answer this. It's not like the answer is the same every time. When God spoke to Moses, I assume the voice originated from the burning bush. When he spoke to Matthew, I assume it originated from Jesus' body. But those are just assumptions. I don't believe the Bible did an acoustic analysis of each situation. What are you after here?

Fair enough. But isn't he posited to be everywhere? The smell of cinnamon is not posited to be everywhere at all times.

It doesn't make sense to me to say it that way. You would have to give me a Bible verse that says God is omnipresent, because I've not seen it. If God is at position x, that would mean I am not. So, if God is everywhere, then I'm nowhere. And the "other dimensions" explanation does not solve that riddle. If I am 3D and at location (x,y,z), it doesn't help to say God is at position (w,x,y,z). If you're going to say that about God, then I must also have a w coordinate and we're back to the same problem.

I restrict myself to what the Bible says. The Bible says God hears all prayers (1 John 5:14). Those types of verses are as close as I come to something like omnipresence.

With every other person I have ever known, there is an easy formula to meet them. Why is God different? Why is he so coy or shy or difficult to meet and get to know?

Why does he make himself so annoyingly difficult to meet?

...perhaps its because he does not exist? Its really hard to meet someone who doesn't exist...

Do you want an answer, or was that all a rhetorical set-up for the last line?

 

[leftrightleftrightleft]

I know the science. One of my engineering assignments was diesel engine acoustics. But I don't know how to answer this. It's not like the answer is the same every time. When God spoke to Moses, I assume the voice originated from the burning bush. When he spoke to Matthew, I assume it originated from Jesus' body. But those are just assumptions. I don't believe the Bible did an acoustic analysis of each situation. What are you after here?

Do you believe God exists today? Or do you only believe the things written about him in the Bible?

Because people claim to hear God audibly today. Not from burning bushes. Not from a physical incarnation such as Jesus. So from where? The air itself?

It doesn't make sense to me to say it that way. You would have to give me a Bible verse that says God is omnipresent, because I've not seen it. If God is at position x, that would mean I am not. So, if God is everywhere, then I'm nowhere. And the "other dimensions" explanation does not solve that riddle. If I am 3D and at location (x,y,z), it doesn't help to say God is at position (w,x,y,z). If you're going to say that about God, then I must also have a w coordinate and we're back to the same problem.

I restrict myself to what the Bible says. The Bible says God hears all prayers (1 John 5:14). Those types of verses are as close as I come to something like omnipresence.

I have asked "What is God". Perhaps the next question to pose to you is "Where is God?"

Where is he? He's not where you are because, as you say, you are at x,y,z,t. Does he "transcend" our notion of location?

If he hears all prayers, do you mean that you have to say the prayer audibly or he even hears our internal thoughts?

Do you want an answer, or was that all a rhetorical set-up for the last line?

I would like an answer. I am also hypothesizing all possible reasons why he is so difficult to get a hold of. An obvious, and rarely mentioned reason why he may be so difficult to find is because he may not exist. It is hard to find something that doesn't exist, right?

 

[Resha Caner]

Do you believe God exists today? Or do you only believe the things written about him in the Bible?

God is eternal, therefore he is alive yesterday, today, and tomorrow (Heb 13:8).

Because people claim to hear God audibly today. Not from burning bushes. Not from a physical incarnation such as Jesus. So from where? The air itself?

I don't know how you expect me to answer that. Just because one happened in the past and another today doesn't change anything. The sound originated from somewhere, but it's different in each case.

I have asked "What is God". Perhaps the next question to pose to you is "Where is God?"

I don't know. Why would that matter to me if he hears all my prayers? I don't mean to sound dismissive. It's an honest question to you. Why does that matter?

If he hears all prayers, do you mean that you have to say the prayer audibly or he even hears our internal thoughts?

God knows our thoughts (Psalm 139:2).

I would like an answer. I am also hypothesizing all possible reasons why he is so difficult to get a hold of. An obvious, and rarely mentioned reason why he may be so difficult to find is because he may not exist. It is hard to find something that doesn't exist, right?

I suspect you're not going to like it. We would have to start with the person in the Bible who asked that question (Job 30:20-21) and the answer he eventually got (Job 38:4). The first thing to note is that God did eventually answer him ... but it took some amazing perseverance on Job's part. The best answer I can give for the difficulty is Isaiah 59:2.

In those cases when He's not audibly answering, the best I can do is to say, "Read the book."