What is God?

[All Souls]

What do you mean by this?

All God-talk is symbolic with the sole exception of the statement that 'God is being-itself'. This is laid out fully by Paul Tillich in the first volume of his Systematic Theology. You may find his The Courage to Be of interest, particularly pp. 187 f. of the pdf.

 

[All Souls]

How can you be a Christian and say that?

Isnt a God/being/person at the center of the faith?

So did Thomas! In his Summa:

Now, since God is being itself by His own essence, created being must be his proper effect....Therefore, as long as a thing has being, so long must God be present to it, according to its mode of being. (S.T. Ia, 8, 1)

esse ipsum was a classical Christian way of conceptualising God.

 

[DogmaHunter]

All God-talk is symbolic with the sole exception of the statement that 'God is being-itself'. This is laid out fully by Paul Tillich in the first volume of his Systematic Theology. You may find his The Courage to Be of interest, particularly pp. 187 f. of the pdf.

Maybe I'm slow, but I still have no idea what you are saying.

Seems like talking in riddles.

 

[All Souls]

Maybe I'm slow, but I still have no idea what you are saying.

Have you studied philosophy at all? Is English your first language?

 

[durangodawood]

So did Thomas! In his Summa:



esse ipsum was a classical Christian way of conceptualising God.

That doesnt sound like the God of the Bible, who is a sort of ultra-person, with its own mind, a voice, a specific will, etc.

 

[All Souls]

That doesnt sound like the God of the Bible, who is a sort of ultra-person, with its own mind, a voice, a specific will, etc.

Which is where the symbolic concept comes in; thus God is personal but not a person and is grounded on Exod. 3:16, where God says to Moses, “I am who I am." This, in Hebrew, is 'to be', that is, God is being. Thus we use this to construct an ontology

 

[Resha Caner]

Barack Obama is a black Homo Sapiens. He currently resides in the white house where has taken up the role of leading a country named The United States of America. A role that American citizens call "president".
And he looks like this: http://www.barackobama.net/pictures/barack-obama-2.jpg

So if I gave you a link to a picture of God on the Internet, you would suddenly believe? I doubt it. As a disclaimer, I'm not a birther, but I did pick Obama as an example for a reason. It begins with the simplest fact that there are about 25 million African Americans in the U.S. Nothing you've said proves* there is an individual African American named Barack Obama. How are you going to prove to me, right here in an Internet forum, that he exists? Especially given the following:

It just so happens I live in Illinois. Obama supposedly lived in Illinois from 1991 - 2008. Yet I never saw him - not once. There are photos of his house in Chicago, but I'm not allowed to visit his house to confirm he actually lives there, and there is all kind of news swirling around who actually bought the property and how they did it.
The Rezko Connection: Obama's Achilles Heel? - ABC News

And, you know, that stuff can be faked. After all, here is a photo of Harry Potter at Hogwart's:
Image - 2005 harry potter and the goblet of fire 023.jpg - Harry Potter Wiki

Is that real? No. So of what value is photographic evidence? After all, there are fictional television shows about U.S. Presidents:
The West Wing - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Then, of course, no one seems to be able to locate his birth certificate. Again, there are photos of it online, but there is evidence it was faked and no one is allowed to view the actual document:
10 Facts That Suggest Obama’s Birth Certificate Is Fake // Mr. Conservative

Finally, there is the whole mystery surrounding the time he was supposedly a U.S. Senator. I met Senator Fitzgerald (Obama's predecessor) in person, who was very popular because he was clean. It was a refreshing change from his predecessor (Mosely-Braun) whose entire term of office was a swirl of controversy. But Fitzgerald was a Caucasian Republican, and Illinois is a Democratically controlled state. They needed to clean up the mess Mosely-Braun had created (given her hype as the first African American female senator). So, the machine went to work. Suddenly, this popular senator announces he won't run for re-election, and this unknown guy who no one has ever seen called Obama steps in to take the seat. Sounds fishy to me. And it's not as if Illinois isn't known for it's corruption. We have two former governors and one former Congressman doing time in jail. With that record, I wouldn't trust that any politician coming from Illinois actually exists.

So, I take Obama more as an allegory. It's symbolic of the journey African Americans have had from slavery to full participation in American society. There's even this book called Dreams From My Father. Have you read it? I did a textual analysis on it, and believe it was actually written by Michelle Obama and Bill Ayers (because it's a proven fact those are real people).
Bill Ayers 2008 presidential election controversy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Regardless, if you read the book the use of various literary mechanisms is obvious. Obama's "birth" just happens to take place at the beginning of the 1960s (the birth of the Civil Rights movement), and of course his "father" is a native African who "marries" a Caucasion woman - all symbolic of the integration that was occurring around that time. I could go on and on ...

*Note: I'm using "proves" in the sense I typically encounter on this forum.

 

[durangodawood]

Which is where the symbolic concept comes in; thus God is personal but not a person and is grounded on Exod. 3:16, where God says to Moses, “I am who I am." This, in Hebrew, is 'to be', that is, God is being. Thus we use this to construct an ontology

But "being" doesnt talk to you. Persons talk.

 

[leftrightleftrightleft]

Caner, do you content that God is physical in the same way Obama is?

So if I gave you a link to a picture of God on the Internet, you would suddenly believe? I doubt it.

Can you show me a picture of God? Rather than thinking what I would think, can you provide a picture of God for me?

Because I can find several million photos of Obama.

Also, what about videos? There are also millions of youtube videos of Obama speaking, walking and do other things that indicate he exists. A youtube search for "God" gives some documentaries, cartoons, debates, etc. No speeches from God though. Nothing akin to the millions of videos of Obama.

It just so happens I live in Illinois. Obama supposedly lived in Illinois from 1991 - 2008. Yet I never saw him - not once. There are photos of his house in Chicago, but I'm not allowed to visit his house to confirm he actually lives there, and there is all kind of news swirling around who actually bought the property and how they did it.
The Rezko Connection: Obama's Achilles Heel? - ABC News

If I am to posit Obama's existence, I begin by stating that he is a physical entity made of atoms and molecules. He is confined to a certain discrete location in space and time and is not nebulous. He also exists as a physical entity at the current time.

As such, the analogy for Obama relating to evidence for God falls apart instantly. God is not posited to be a physical entity made of atoms and molecules. He is not posited to be confined to a certain discrete location in space and time.

On an internet forum, I can't "prove" very much. I can't even prove that you exist. And I can't prove to you that I exist for I might just be a sophisticated computer. I could be a friend of yours in your own town, or I could be someone living in Timbuktu in a shack.

However, it is undeniably hypothetically possible to prove that I exist or that Obama exists. I can give you x,y,z,t coordinates to meet me at Grand Central Station in New York City under the clock at 11:00 am on April 14th. We could both buy plane tickets and arrive there at the specified time and thus I could prove to you that I exist. The same cannot be said of God.

With regards to Obama, you can look up his schedule here. Today, he will be in New York and you could go to the Sheraton New York Hotel at 4:10 PM Eastern Time and see him speak at an Open Press event. Its possible. The same cannot be said of God.

What x,y,z,t coordinates can you give me where I can meet God? What hypothetical way could I prove God exists, even if you or I cannot do it right now on this Internet forum?

And, you know, that stuff can be faked. After all, here is a photo of Harry Potter at Hogwart's:
Image - 2005 harry potter and the goblet of fire 023.jpg - Harry Potter Wiki

Harry Potter is not posited to be real. It is posited to be a fictional book series.

Is that real? No. So of what value is photographic evidence?

Do you have photographs of God? I would like to see them. When I do a Google image search for Obama I get millions of photographs. When I do a Google image search for God I get paintings, memes, a few photos of clouds, some Hindu memorials and statues etc. If God exists in an analogous way to Obama, why no photos?

After all, there are fictional television shows about U.S. Presidents:
The West Wing - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The West Wing is not posited to be real. It is posited to be a fictional television story.

Then, of course, no one seems to be able to locate his birth certificate. Again, there are photos of it online, but there is evidence it was faked and no one is allowed to view the actual document:
10 Facts That Suggest Obama’s Birth Certificate Is Fake // Mr. Conservative

Just because someone doesn't have a birth certificate does not mean they don't exist.

Finally, there is the whole mystery surrounding the time he was supposedly a U.S. Senator. I met Senator Fitzgerald (Obama's predecessor) in person, who was very popular because he was clean. It was a refreshing change from his predecessor (Mosely-Braun) whose entire term of office was a swirl of controversy. But Fitzgerald was a Caucasian Republican, and Illinois is a Democratically controlled state. They needed to clean up the mess Mosely-Braun had created (given her hype as the first African American female senator). So, the machine went to work. Suddenly, this popular senator announces he won't run for re-election, and this unknown guy who no one has ever seen called Obama steps in to take the seat. Sounds fishy to me. And it's not as if Illinois isn't known for it's corruption. We have two former governors and one former Congressman doing time in jail. With that record, I wouldn't trust that any politician coming from Illinois actually exists.

Actually, likely tens of thousands of people had seen him at this point. His family, friends and acquaintances could all testify to his existence even when he was a relatively unknown person.

Just because someone is relatively unknown does not mean they don't exist. There are billions of people on Earth who are "relatively unknown". Do they all not exist simply because you personally have not seen them? If you close your eyes, does the world disappear?

So, I take Obama more as an allegory. It's symbolic of the journey African Americans have had from slavery to full participation in American society. There's even this book called Dreams From My Father. Have you read it? I did a textual analysis on it, and believe it was actually written by Michelle Obama and Bill Ayers (because it's a proven fact those are real people).
Bill Ayers 2008 presidential election controversy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

A wikipedia article is sufficient proof for Michelle Obama and Bill Ayers but not for Obama???

Also, I agree there is a lot of symbolism and contextual meaning to Obama's life and story. Just because you find symbolism doesn't mean Obama doesn't exist...

Similarly, just because you find symbolism in the Bible, doesn't mean God exists.

*Note: I'm using "proves" in the sense I typically encounter on this forum.

I don't think you are. I think you are taking it to the point of logical absurdity.

You are comparing a physical human being who has a discrete location in space and time with a non-physical non-human being who has a nebulous location who is posited to transcend space and time.

 

[Resha Caner]

I don't think you are. I think you are taking it to the point of logical absurdity.

Does that mean you see how absurd these kinds of questions are? That was exactly my intent. For example ...

A wikipedia article is sufficient proof for Michelle Obama and Bill Ayers but not for Obama???

Haven't you seen people do this type of thing?

You are comparing a physical human being who has a discrete location in space and time with a non-physical non-human being who has a nebulous location who is posited to transcend space and time.

You asked me for a list. Did any of these "traits" appear in the list I gave you? This always seems to be an issue I encounter. People ask me to define God, and then introduce all kinds of things I never mentioned.

Can you show me a picture of God? Rather than thinking what I would think, can you provide a picture of God for me?

Because I can find several million photos of Obama.

Yeah, but they all present Obama differently. So which one is the real Obama? Is he a good president or a bad one? Is he an American citizen or isn't he? Is he a Christian or a Muslim? There are just so many different ideas of Obama out there that it's confusing for me. Why should I accept your version of Obama as the real Obama?

And, are videos a superior form of evidence? Is that because they can't be faked? So, Obama is better established than Lincoln as a real President because we have video?

No speeches from God though.

Maybe you should read Isaiah sometime.

As such, the analogy for Obama relating to evidence for God falls apart instantly. God is not posited to be a physical entity made of atoms and molecules. He is not posited to be confined to a certain discrete location in space and time.

Again, your definition of a god, not mine. But are you saying all I have to do is posit something as material and that justifies it? I think unicorns could be posited as material.

Or later you say it must be posited as real. So, what exactly is your criteria here? Must it be material? If not, what is the difference between positing something as material and positing it as real?

On an internet forum, I can't "prove" very much. I can't even prove that you exist. And I can't prove to you that I exist for I might just be a sophisticated computer. I could be a friend of yours in your own town, or I could be someone living in Timbuktu in a shack.

Exactly. You can't show me the "real" Obama on the Internet. I can't show you God on the Internet. My point is that many of the arguments used against God's existence can be used against the existence of anything if someone is determined to be difficult about it.

Just because someone doesn't have a birth certificate does not mean they don't exist.

I'm glad we got at least one thing out of the way, because I can't show you God's birth certificate.

Just because someone is relatively unknown does not mean they don't exist. There are billions of people on Earth who are "relatively unknown". Do they all not exist simply because you personally have not seen them? If you close your eyes, does the world disappear?

Right. And further, some of those people you don't know have probably done spectacular things.

Actually, likely tens of thousands of people had seen him at this point. His family, friends and acquaintances could all testify to his existence even when he was a relatively unknown person.

I'll bet you there are more people who would testify to knowing God personally than to knowing Obama personally. So you're willing to accept that?

Caner, do you content that God is physical in the same way Obama is?

See, now we're getting to it. There is something you want to know. As I interpret your question, the answer would be yes, the incarnation of Christ as Jesus was a material event. That doesn't mean God is only material, but it does mean He can interact with us, which is probably what you're really after.

With regards to Obama, you can look up his schedule here. Today, he will be in New York and you could go to the Sheraton New York Hotel at 4:10 PM Eastern Time and see him speak at an Open Press event. Its possible. The same cannot be said of God.

Given I'm in the Midwest, I won't be able to make it there in time. I have no doubt there will be an African American man at the Sheraton in New York. But can you prove to me he is the one who did all the things ascribed to Barack Obama?

I guess I thought you were asking for more than this. So if I sent you to a particular place at a particular time and say that what you experience when you get there is God, that's good enough? Yeah, I can do that. You can get the schedule here: Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod - Locate A Church, School, Worker

 

[Paradoxum]

For atheists: What is God?

I don't know; what is a supreme blob?

But my faith, before I lost it, was that God was an omniscient, omnipotent, timeless, spaceless, good and loving, omnipresence being. He wasn't an immoral monster who murdered people, like the Bible.

What is it exactly that you don't believe in?

The thing above.

Does God need to have a measurable impact on the universe in order for you to believe God exists?

God needs to have some justifiable reason to believe in him. If God is real, why not say hello?

 

[variant]

For atheists: What is God? What is it exactly that you don't believe in? Does God need to have a measurable impact on the universe in order for you to believe God exists?

I don't believe a God that has no measurable impact on the universe is definable and one can not possibly believe in the indefinite as it would be inconceivable.

So, I don't think it is possible for anyone to believe God exists if it has no impact.

 

[DogmaHunter]

So if I gave you a link to a picture of God on the Internet, you would suddenly believe? I doubt it.

The question wasn't about proving Obama exists. It was about defining what Obama is in such a way that you can understand it as well as verify it. In other words, in such a way that you would not be required to take my word for it.

With the information I gave you (name, picture, address, general description), you are perfectly able to go look him up and double check my description as well as verify if the dude actually exists.

Their might be millions of african americans in the state, but I'm guessing not many of them look like the person in the linked picture, have the profession of "president" and live in the white house.

 

[DogmaHunter]

Have you studied philosophy at all? Is English your first language?

No, I'm not trained in the language of abstract vagueness.

I shouldn't require a phd of anything to understand a simple definition.

"being-itself" - what does this mean? Can you point to another object or entity with this property? What is that property?

 

[Ana the Ist]

So if I gave you a link to a picture of God on the Internet, you would suddenly believe? I doubt it. As a disclaimer, I'm not a birther, but I did pick Obama as an example for a reason. It begins with the simplest fact that there are about 25 million African Americans in the U.S. Nothing you've said proves* there is an individual African American named Barack Obama. How are you going to prove to me, right here in an Internet forum, that he exists? Especially given the following:

It just so happens I live in Illinois. Obama supposedly lived in Illinois from 1991 - 2008. Yet I never saw him - not once. There are photos of his house in Chicago, but I'm not allowed to visit his house to confirm he actually lives there, and there is all kind of news swirling around who actually bought the property and how they did it.
The Rezko Connection: Obama's Achilles Heel? - ABC News

And, you know, that stuff can be faked. After all, here is a photo of Harry Potter at Hogwart's:
Image - 2005 harry potter and the goblet of fire 023.jpg - Harry Potter Wiki

Is that real? No. So of what value is photographic evidence? After all, there are fictional television shows about U.S. Presidents:
The West Wing - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Then, of course, no one seems to be able to locate his birth certificate. Again, there are photos of it online, but there is evidence it was faked and no one is allowed to view the actual document:
10 Facts That Suggest Obama’s Birth Certificate Is Fake // Mr. Conservative

Finally, there is the whole mystery surrounding the time he was supposedly a U.S. Senator. I met Senator Fitzgerald (Obama's predecessor) in person, who was very popular because he was clean. It was a refreshing change from his predecessor (Mosely-Braun) whose entire term of office was a swirl of controversy. But Fitzgerald was a Caucasian Republican, and Illinois is a Democratically controlled state. They needed to clean up the mess Mosely-Braun had created (given her hype as the first African American female senator). So, the machine went to work. Suddenly, this popular senator announces he won't run for re-election, and this unknown guy who no one has ever seen called Obama steps in to take the seat. Sounds fishy to me. And it's not as if Illinois isn't known for it's corruption. We have two former governors and one former Congressman doing time in jail. With that record, I wouldn't trust that any politician coming from Illinois actually exists.

So, I take Obama more as an allegory. It's symbolic of the journey African Americans have had from slavery to full participation in American society. There's even this book called Dreams From My Father. Have you read it? I did a textual analysis on it, and believe it was actually written by Michelle Obama and Bill Ayers (because it's a proven fact those are real people).
Bill Ayers 2008 presidential election controversy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Regardless, if you read the book the use of various literary mechanisms is obvious. Obama's "birth" just happens to take place at the beginning of the 1960s (the birth of the Civil Rights movement), and of course his "father" is a native African who "marries" a Caucasion woman - all symbolic of the integration that was occurring around that time. I could go on and on ...

*Note: I'm using "proves" in the sense I typically encounter on this forum.

We could actually investigate the existence of Mr Obama. Whether I believe in him or not, I could attend a speech of his, or even visit the White House in attempt to catch a glimpse of him. I could even go as far as attempting to get a job working for him or in relation to him in some capacity.

If all this were impossible, and there was no real way of investigating his existence, you might actually have a point.

 

[Resha Caner]

The question wasn't about proving Obama exists. It was about defining what Obama is in such a way that you can understand it as well as verify it. In other words, in such a way that you would not be required to take my word for it.

Yes, as I said, it's about learning to recognize a person.

But in this case I can never do it for myself - and you can't either. Everything you give me is second hand. Yes, I can visually confirm that the man I see giving a speech on the evening news is the same man in your Internet picture. But I can never see him being President. I am not allowed in cabinet meetings, not allowed in the situation room or the oval office during secure meetings, etc.

You do realize I'm spoofing don't you? No, maybe not. Maybe you don't get it. Should we do some more?

Their might be millions of african americans in the state, but I'm guessing not many of them look like the person in the linked picture, have the profession of "president" and live in the white house.

How have you proven to me he lives in the White House? Did I attend dinner with the first family? Did I get to peek at him sleeping there one night? How do I know he's not a front man for the real power in the White House?

When Calvin Coolidge mentally checked out of the job who was the real President? When Woodrow Wilson had his stroke, who was the real President? When Ronald Reagan spent the day napping, who was the real President?

Does the U.S. actually have a President?

 

[DogmaHunter]

Yes, as I said, it's about learning to recognize a person.

But in this case I can never do it for myself - and you can't either

This makes no sense. What stops you from buying a plane ticket to Washington? What stops you to check his schedule and catch one of his speeches live and in person?

Does the U.S. actually have a President?

Stop trolling.

 

[Resha Caner]

This makes no sense.

Because you don't yet get that you're giving exactly the same answer to these questions that I give when someone asks about meeting God. What stops you from going to church? What stops you from praying?

What stops you from buying a plane ticket to Washington?

Financial and time restrictions.

What stops you to check his schedule and catch one of his speeches live and in person?

Both Presidents Bush and Obama have supposedly been to my city - even supposedly visited my company. Both times it was broadcast on television, but only about a hundred people were actually allowed into the room where they spoke, and they were required to go through intense security checks. I was never one of those people.

But, again, you're missing the point. Does seeing a person give a speech prove that was the person who ordered the "Surge" in Afghanistan?

Now let me connect the dots for you:
1. Seeing a speech = Going to church and taking a sacrament, hearing a sermon, praying.
2. Commanding troops to go to Afghanistan to help stabilize the government = answering those prayers, sending ministering angels, etc.

So, does #1 prove #2?

 

[DogmaHunter]

Because you don't yet get that you're giving exactly the same answer to these questions that I give when someone asks about meeting God. What stops you from going to church? What stops you from praying?

This is 110% false.
And you know it.

Obama is an actual person with physical manifestation that can be independently verified.

No matter how many times I go to church, no matter how many times I pray... the existence of god will always remain a matter of "faith".

The rest of your post is rendered irrelevant because of this categorical error.

Obama = no faith required
God = faith required.

Replace god with "undetectable 7-headed dragon" and your arguments don't change at all.
Replace Obama with "undetectable 7-headed dragon" and the arguments change completely, because suddenly the claim that Obama exists is no longer verifiable and falsifiable.

 

[Resha Caner]

This is 110% false.
And you know it.

Obama is an actual person with physical manifestation that can be independently verified.

No matter how many times I go to church, no matter how many times I pray... the existence of god will always remain a matter of "faith".

Should I take the air quotes (and the subsequent FSM references) to mean you think what I experience is an illusion?

If so, the situation as it appears to me is that I was asked how I recognize God, and you are now telling me that what I experience is not God. Therefore, it is no different than me telling you that your list of Internet "facts" about Obama is not Obama.