What is freewill?

[Reasonably Sane]

How to define freewill?

As an ontological question, there is no consensual answer to this among philosophers. In practice, however, I know I have my freewill. I can sense it. OT mentions it in Exodus 35:


[shall be] willing
נְדָבֹת֮ (nə·ḏā·ḇōṯ)
Noun - feminine plural
Strong's 5071: Spontaneity, spontaneous, a spontaneous, abundant gift

Berean Standard Bible:


The Bible assumes the existence of freewill. 1 Corinthians 7 talks about freedom and will:


A similar concept is expressed in (BSB) Philemon 1:


On the other hand, Paul talks of God's influencing our will in Philippians 2:


Ephesians 1:


I would define freewill concretely as our freewill faculty/organ in our brain that makes choices when presented with alternatives. It is up to us to choose. However, the term freewill is a bit misleading, as if it is totally free from all external factors and influences. Alternatively, instead of "freewill", one can speak of "sovereign will" or "independent volition". I have my volitional faculty. That's what I call my freewill.

Is there freewill in heaven?

Yes, I will still possess my own volitional faculty or independent volition.

By my definition, the volition organ is part of the soul, and the soul is formed when God's breath (spirit) interacts with the body. According to this definition, AIs do not have a freewill unless God breathes on them.

See also

• Do we choose to repent?
• Contradiction: Omnipotent, Omniscient, Predestination, Determinism vs Freewill

The european version of the movie "The Vanishing" touches on the concept of free will in an interesting way. The bad guy is nuts, but smart. He confesses that he believes free will is limited and uses his permanently damaged finger as exhibit A. It goes something like this: When he was a child he was standing on a second story balcony contemplating free will. He realized that he found it impossible to use his free will to jump off the balcony. That limit to his free will agrivated him so, being better than most humans (in his mind), he made the "free will" choice to jump, proving he really did have a free will. And the damage it did to his hand was permanent.

We have some free will, but we have safety valves built in. Some of them are almost impossible to control, yet are excellent defense mechanisms. Others are controllable, but you always make the same choice. e.g. the crazy guy jumping from the second floor. But you can choose your career to a degree, pizza over big mac, etc. And you can choose to be disobedient. However, it has consequences, as do all bad choices.

 

[Grip Docility]

The european version of the movie "The Vanishing" touches on the concept of free will in an interesting way. The bad guy is nuts, but smart. He confesses that he believes free will is limited and uses his permanently damaged finger as exhibit A. It goes something like this: When he was a child he was standing on a second story balcony contemplating free will. He realized that he found it impossible to use his free will to jump off the balcony. That limit to his free will agrivated him so, being better than most humans (in his mind), he made the "free will" choice to jump, proving he really did have a free will. And the damage it did to his hand was permanent.

We have some free will, but we have safety valves built in. Some of them are almost impossible to control, yet are excellent defense mechanisms. Others are controllable, but you always make the same choice. e.g. the crazy guy jumping from the second floor. But you can choose your career to a degree, pizza over big mac, etc. And you can choose to be disobedient. However, it has consequences, as do all bad choices.

Bible verses, please.... In context, Minimum 10 verses.

 

[childeye 2]

Paul is God's very voice, who communed with God in the Third Heaven.... He wasn't bashful about expressing this.

He makes it clear that BLIND faith is SUPER BAD! He introduces the concept of Faith requiring Evidence and cites the Resurrections (oh how fast people forget that Jesus was the first, then other Graves literally broke open to reveal Resurrected saints) and Crucifixion as such evidence! He further reveals that Trust is founded on Relationship, by perpetually paralleling our relationship with God to a marriage.

Hmmm. There are semantics to consider. If someone told me that in fact, we do choose whether to trust Christ or not trust Christ when we hear the Gospel and either believe or not believe, they would be correct; Only because the option has been put before us and we MUST RESPOND in some manner that believes or doesn't believe in some degree. Hence the mind conflates choice/option with choice/decision.

Having said that, I don't believe we can turn faith on and off at our discretion any more than we can choose whether God is trustworthy or not trustworthy. If blind faith is positive prejudice, it's not the same blind faith that is negative prejudice. I do like the analogy of the marriage (for better or worse). To that end, Paul is saying that faith is the evidence of the things hoped for. If one holds a negative image of god, then their hope is that they don't have to spend an eternity serving God and would prefer death. And this is why I say that one's image of God defines the terms including free will. Because that's not even faith since that imagery is not even God. In other words, Paul is not saying that faith is the evidence of things dreaded. At this moment I recall Joshua saying,

And if it seem evil unto you to serve the Lord, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.

So, scripture declares that God sent His own son into the world and there he was crucified and even there he prayed for those who crucified him. It would seem perfectly clear that here is an image of God that proves trustworthy and praiseworthy, at least to those who understand the Gospel. For some are preaching a different Gospel; saying that the being stripped naked, the mocking and scorning, being beaten and scourged and nailed to a cross to die in agony is God's wrath against us being taken out on Jesus, rather than God's son bearing with our sins and the sins of the world.

 

[Grip Docility]

Hmmm. There are semantics to consider. If someone told me that in fact, we do choose whether to trust Christ or not trust Christ when we hear the Gospel and either believe or not believe, they would be correct; Only because the option has been put before us and we MUST RESPOND in some manner that believes or doesn't believe in some degree. Hence the mind conflates choice/option with choice/decision.

Having said that, I don't believe we can turn faith on and off at our discretion any more than we can choose whether God is trustworthy or not trustworthy. If blind faith is positive prejudice, it's not the same blind faith that is negative prejudice. I do like the analogy of the marriage (for better or worse). To that end, Paul is saying that faith is the evidence of the things hoped for. If one holds a negative image of god, then their hope is that they don't have to spend an eternity serving God and would prefer death. At this moment I recall Joshua saying,

And if it seem evil unto you to serve the Lord, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.

So, scripture said that God sent His own son into the world and there he was crucified and even there he prayed for those who crucified him. It would seem perfectly clear that here is an image of God that proves be trustworthy. But yet some are preaching a different Gospel. Saying that the being stripped naked, the mocking and scorning, being beaten and scourged is God's wrath being taken out on Jesus, rather than God's son bearing with our sins.

If theology leads to the conclusion that God, killed God.... it's assuming that the Father is of a different "PERSONALITY" than the Son, which by the way, is a way of invalidating Jesus Christ's entire ministry. Oh no! so confusing! Not really. The Father, Son and Holy Spirit of Christ are simple to understand if we are like little kids about it. The same soul that dwells within the Father is the same soul that dwells within the Son. What does this mean? what is the name of this mysterious soul? THE HOLY SPIRIT of God! Erm... He's literally filling the soul of many of the Body of Christ as we speak... so being the 100% soul of the Father and the Son simultaneously, isn't really that hard to comprehend.

Why speak of all this?

Because God, when crucified by His very own creation, that He Loves.... Simultaneously felt the Pain of The Perfect Son who Loved His Father and was literally CUT OFF from His Father "Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?" for our sake and All of Creation's sake and brutalized beyond comprehension... and the very pain of The Father witnessing the Horror of all of this happening to His Only Begotten Son!

This is such an impossible thing to emotionally comprehend! This is Massive! This is truly only a thing GOD Himself can endure!

Now, some say, God isn't a "Person" with a personality. Okay, Who's IMAGE are we made in? OH, so we have the Individual Personality and God is just a leveled blind beast incapable of Experience or Genuine Emotional fluctuation?

We are of God. God isn't an idea fashioned by us of what is perfect, for certain. God's "Perfection" is so far beyond our comprehension of exactly what Perfection is, that we will never fully understand... even after we've been there 10,000 years, bright shining as the sun, that we will have no less days to sing God's praise than the Hour that it first begun.

 

[Grip Docility]

 

[Grip Docility]

Hmmm. There are semantics to consider. If someone told me that in fact, we do choose whether to trust Christ or not trust Christ when we hear the Gospel and either believe or not believe, they would be correct; Only because the option has been put before us and we MUST RESPOND in some manner that believes or doesn't believe in some degree. Hence the mind conflates choice/option with choice/decision.

Having said that, I don't believe we can turn faith on and off at our discretion any more than we can choose whether God is trustworthy or not trustworthy. If blind faith is positive prejudice, it's not the same blind faith that is negative prejudice. I do like the analogy of the marriage (for better or worse). To that end, Paul is saying that faith is the evidence of the things hoped for. If one holds a negative image of god, then their hope is that they don't have to spend an eternity serving God and would prefer death. At this moment I recall Joshua saying,

And if it seem evil unto you to serve the Lord, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.

So, scripture declares that God sent His own son into the world and there he was crucified and even there he prayed for those who crucified him. It would seem perfectly clear that here is an image of God that proves trustworthy and praiseworthy, at least to those who understand the Gospel. For some are preaching a different Gospel; saying that the being stripped naked, the mocking and scorning, being beaten and scourged and nailed to a cross to die in agony is God's wrath against us being taken out on Jesus, rather than God's son bearing with our sins and the sins of the world.

Our Literal Free Will is rooted in the Mathematical brilliance of God! If I choose the color Green, and paint with it, it will show to be green. If I want to fly, it's best not to jump off of a high building. I have to Build and Create to accomplish that feat. I wonder where we got that ability? I wonder WHO provided the substance that we can do that with? I can do what I please with what has been freely given. That is Free Will. What kind of Being would provide and bestow such manner and measure of Love towards us? I bet He's Amazing! I bet that He is the very Benevolent Altruistic definition of Love itself.

 

[Reasonably Sane]

Bible verses, please.... In context, Minimum 10 verses.

?

 

[childeye 2]

Our Literal Free Will is rooted in the Mathematical brilliance of God! If I choose the color Green, and paint with it, it will show to be green. If I want to fly, it's best not to jump off of a high building. I have to Build and Create to accomplish that feat. I wonder where we got that ability? I wonder WHO provided the substance that we can do that with? I can do what I please with what has been freely given. That is Free Will. What kind of Being would provide and bestow such manner and measure of Love towards us? I bet He's Amazing! I bet that He is the very Benevolent Altruistic definition of Love itself.

How does putting 'literal' in front of free will qualify the term 'free'?

Here is the only definition of free will that I find coherent and it's in the moral/immoral paradigm: 'A will free from sin'.

My proof? Any desire to sin is based on believing a lie (being deceived). Satan is the Father of lies, not God. Anyone deceived is not free in their will, but being manipulated through deception. Jesus said the Truth shall set you free (free from sin).

 

[Grip Docility]

We have some free will, but we have safety valves built in. Some of them are almost impossible to control, yet are excellent defense mechanisms. Others are controllable, but you always make the same choice. e.g. the crazy guy jumping from the second floor. But you can choose your career to a degree, pizza over big mac, etc. And you can choose to be disobedient. However, it has consequences, as do all bad choices

I'll just say it. To Meta Physically evaluate free will is simply unnecessary. The fantastical idea of not being able to "will ourselves to fly by jumping off a cliff" is just plain not necessary to be brought up. It's obvious that God created an ordered universe. He has to chuckle as some brilliant minds literally touch His very Math and Biology with science, then pretend that they aren't seeing God's very mechanisms.

To say that we have "some" free will is unnecessary. I'm well aware that if I play with a poisonous snake, that it's going to stink, in about 10 - 40 seconds. This is common wisdom.

Free Will is exactly that order of God's provision that allows us infinite choices second to second that reach into eternity.

Anarchy is to say that if I jump off a cliff, that I will fall up. Anarchy is to say that if I paint with the color green, it may come out black.

To limit free will with the concept of Anarchy is to belittle what free will is. God gave it ... Freely. It's a Genuine thing. Simple is good. When details make things complicated... there's an old expression about that.

 

[Grip Docility]

How does putting 'literal' in front of free will qualify the term 'free'?

Here is the only definition of free will that I find coherent and it's in the moral/immoral paradigm: 'A will free from sin'.

My proof? Any desire to sin is based on believing a lie (being deceived). Satan is the Father of lies, not God. Anyone deceived is not free in their will, but being manipulated through deception. Jesus said the Truth shall set you free (free from sin).

Literally! I deserved that.

God still made sure that we had choice, even when under the rule of cruel leadership. We have the option to "Rebel against Rebellion". What is Satan's satan? God knew what He was doing. We can Rebel... and we can Rebel against Rebellion itself. It's... that... simple.

You may find this an odd statement, but I have always viewed Jesus as the ultimate REBEL against the system of this world, since I truly met Him within the Gospels.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Mark Quayle said:
I like that. I just wish that it didn't imply to some the notion that in fact THEY are the only cause of their own decisions, denying the pervasiveness of cause-and-effect.

What are THEY?

Human beings (and angels, too, for that matter), mere creatures all.

What is the first cause?

God.

And the first thing/things he made is/are the first effect. And, as things go, the first effect causes second effect and so on

 

[childeye 2]

Literally! I deserved that.

God still made sure that we had choice, even when under the rule of cruel leadership. We have the option to "Rebel against Rebellion". What is Satan's satan? God knew what He was doing. We can Rebel... and we can Rebel against Rebellion itself. It's... that... simple.

You may find this an odd statement, but I have always viewed Jesus as the ultimate REBEL against the system of this world, since I truly met Him within the Gospels.

Respectfully, it's irrelevant that God made sure we had choice since we're talking about a coherent definition of a free will.

Consider this reasoning: The term "will" is a noun that denotes an individual's faculty of reasoning and desire of the heart. Hence the ability to choose is already contained in the term 'will' without adding the adjective 'free'. So, when the adjective 'free' is added it suggests to the mind that this ability to reason and choose along with the desire of the heart, is free from something. Free from what? The term 'Free' must be qualified to be coherent.

We have the option to "Rebel against Rebellion"

Let's not conflate the occasion of options with the ability to make decisions. After all, options are external to the will and in reality there's only one God, and no other options.

 

[Grip Docility]

Respectfully, it's irrelevant that God made sure we had choice since we're talking about a coherent definition of a free will.

Consider this reasoning: The term "will" is a noun that denotes an individual's faculty of reasoning and desire of the heart. Hence the ability to choose is already contained in the term 'will' without adding the adjective 'free'. So, when the adjective 'free' is added it suggests to the mind that this ability to reason and choose and the desire of the heart), is free from something. Free from what? the term 'Free' must be qualified to be coherent.

We have the option to "Rebel against Rebellion"

Let's not conflate the occasion of options with the ability to make decisions. After all, in reality there's only one God, and no other options.

Do I have to be more clear?

There's only 2 sides to the war. When we rebel against God, we are on the side of darkness. When we rebel against the rebellion against God, we are back on God's side. It takes grit and rebellion! The order of Satan not only made sure that the Messiah was crucified, but lined the streets of Rome with the crucified body's of Christians, who they had dipped their heads in oil, to light the way of that road. That's true DARKNESS! Those who were fed to lions, sawn in twain, hung, crucified, Put to the sword, Put to the Ax, Drug by horses, Drawn and quartered... etc etc etc..... they Rebelled against the Darkness. Paul was struck BLIND by the TRUE LIGHT. He truly believed he was serving God, until the Great Living Breathing I Am identified Himself Audibly to Saul, as Jesus Christ. Saul isn't a picture of "Election". That was actually working out poor for Him, a Pharisee of Pharisee's who just knew that he was CHOSEN. Saul is a picture of a man swallowed by the kingdom of darkness which is brutal and being confronted with the mysterious Love of God, the very God of the Gospel. Steven gave his swan song out of rebellion to the Kingdom of Darkness.

There is indeed only one God, Who is beyond worthy. We have 1,000,000 + other alternative choices than Him. The Road to destruction is quite Broad, after all. We can't climb over the narrow gate. We can't break in. We can't assume we are "chosen". We can't just "get to know Him". We have to WILL of our sincere heart of Repentance that He gets to know us. We can only enter through Him! Those theological words smash the chains of Man Made concepts. They put EVERYTHING in perspective. Wait, let me rephrase that. The Living WORD Smashes the chains of Words devised by men of religious affiliation or other. He, alone, is the Truth.

We all have the Free Wil to CHOOSE ye this day. Some trust in horses, chariots, weapons of war, etc etc... but...

Yes, by all means, we are convoluted by the very dismay of the world we are now born into. What I am saying, is that our initial Mustard Seed of Faith.... our very first act that God waits patiently for... CHANGING OUR MINDS (Repentance)... it, itself is an act of Rebellion to the Kingdom of darkness and thus, not a pure act of contrition. Our first, necessary move is a move of selfish surrender to God. But... IT MATTERS to God and We MUST do it! John the Baptist came first. (Repent) Then Jesus! (The Foundation of our Salvation) Then Paul (The Revelation of the Gospel from Heaven). (Access to His very Holy Spirit comes in such a way. He Tabernacles within us, in this way, and This WAY is NARROW) Low, He stands at ALL Doors and KNOCKS.

 

[childeye 2]

Do I have to be more clear?

Yes, I am requesting that you qualify the adjective "Free" in front of will for the sake of clarity. What is a free will free from in your usage? I said 'sin'. Such as the will God gave mankind before sin entered in and the will being set free from sin through the Holy Spirit.

There is indeed only one God, Who is beyond worthy. We have 1,000,000 + other alternative choices than Him.

This is an incoherent statement. Since there is only One God, then there cannot exist 1,000,000+ alternatives.

We all have the Free Wil to CHOOSE ye this day. Some trust in horses, chariots, weapons of war, etc etc... but...

Josuha knew there is only One God. Joshua knew there was no other shall I say 'viable' options. When he said to choose this day, he was indicating that such a choice is only plausible in the minds of the deceived who have a false image of God in their mind to begin with. Hence the predicate is underscored in bold "if it seem evil unto you to serve the Lord, choose you this day whom ye will serve;"

YOU DO NOT have the free will to believe and say on this forum that Jesus is not the True Image of God sent by God.
YOU DO have the free will to believe and say on this forum that Jesus is the True Image of God sent by God.

Am I right about that?

 

[Grip Docility]

Yes, I am requesting that you qualify the adjective "Free" in front of will for the sake of clarity. What is the will free from in your usage? I said 'sin'.

God Freely Gave us an individual Will, that is Free to Rebel! Rebel against what? Him or those that Rebel against Him.

This is an incoherent statement. If there is only One God, then there cannot exist 1,000,000+ alternatives.

How many false gospels are there, now? How many idols of men are there that capture the hearts of Mankind in ways that lead them away from God to their very death? How many other god's are there, out there to "Believe in". How many ways are there to exalt self as god? Yet, how many TRUE God's are there? There is only ONE Creator, everything else is creation. It is unwise for mankind to worship the created gospels or things of creation itself, instead of the one True, Living Truth.

Josuha knew there is only One God. Joshua knew there was no other option. When he said to choose this day, he was indicating that such a choice is only plausible in the minds of the deceived who have a false image of God in their mind to begin with. Hence the predicate is underscored in bold "if it seem evil unto you to serve the Lord, choose you this day whom ye will serve;"

God has never left his children in chains. The Devil has tried and tried again, yet even before the Gospel or a single scripture was available, men turned Godward. God had plans within plans within plans! He is, after all a MAN OF WAR! He is the ultimate military strategist! When He gave Free Will... (oh, to be able to keep it Gospel simple without details trying to become a thing, because bad things dwell within "details")... He, the greatest Mind of mind's, knew that "All is fair within Love and War"... as to take that awful human statement and thus now say... He knew that He would have to FIGHT for His Love, and was prepared to do so!

The concept of Total Depravity is not a universal, early church idea. It slowly became a reality as the minds of enlightened men kept filtering the true story through their darkened flesh, until 1500 years later it truly began to take form. That is my opinion on the matter. God never left us hopeless without some form of Rahab's Red Rope. Trying to beat Him at His own pursuit of His Love, "Creation", is like trying to wrestle the very Wind Itself. Who knows, doing so might leave one with an injured hip for the rest of their "mortal" days.

 

[BBAS 64]

Good day,

Happy to see Hymns written by Calvinist are looked to by those would would reject the Theological unpinning of such songs. Which bring forth the Biblical Doctrines of Grace in shining brilliance..

The writer of Amazing Grace understood nature of That Grace:

https://document.desiringgod.org/newton-on-the-christian-life-en.pdf?ts=1646158666

Pg 41


With his counsel and his hymn “Amazing Grace,” Newton “had tried hard to persuade Cowper that God’s grace is universal and never withheld from a believer, but depression closed the poet’s mind to this truth.”13 Cowper was convinced God had become angry with him, and Newton would spend years—decades—serving his friend’s physical needs and laboring to convince him of God’s abundant and amazing grace. Amazing grace can be a hard sell. Even today, some professing Christians find the bold message of “Amazing Grace” tough to stomach. Yet this radical message of God’s sovereign, life-transforming grace was the keynote of Newton’s ministry. Grace is amazing, as Newton discovered firsthand on the sinking Greyhound. Grace is free, sovereign, and sufficient. And yet, convincing sinners of God’s free grace, as Newton would discover, was a laborious full-time task. He became an apologist of God’s free and unmerited favor and devoted his life to confirming God’s grace and applying the promises of Scripture to the lives of his parishioners, his acquaintances, and his friends; and he did so through songs, sermons, and personal letters. From the hard lessons learned at his friend’s bedside, Newton would never make the mistake of assuming grace.



Sovereign Grace One of the most beautiful paradoxes in God’s wisdom is sovereign grace. The same grace that is unmerited is also unstoppable. Grace is a battering ram. Grace is forced entry.

And Newton’s famous hymn is filled with this sovereign grace. In another hymn he opens with this verse:

Sovereign grace has power alone​

Authoritative information about the hymn text Sovereign grace has power alone, with lyrics, PDF files, printable scores, MIDI files, and piano resources.

hymnary.org

Sovereign grace has pow’r alone To subdue a heart of stone;
And the moment grace is felt, Then the hardest heart will melt.14
Grace alone is powerful enough to break the sinner’s bondage to wickedness.
“His grace can overcome the most obstinate habits.”15
Grace breaks in to free and unshackle souls. Grace takes away the guilt of sin, the love of sin, and the dominion of sin, even hard sins like drunkenness.

In Him,

Bill

 

[Grip Docility]

Good day,

Happy to see Hymns written by Calvinist are looked to by those would would reject the Theological unpinning of such songs. Which bring forth the Biblical Doctrines of Grace in shining brilliance..

The writer of Amazing Grace understood nature of That Grace:

https://document.desiringgod.org/newton-on-the-christian-life-en.pdf?ts=1646158666

Pg 41


With his counsel and his hymn “Amazing Grace,” Newton “had tried hard to persuade Cowper that God’s grace is universal and never withheld from a believer, but depression closed the poet’s mind to this truth.”13 Cowper was convinced God had become angry with him, and Newton would spend years—decades—serving his friend’s physical needs and laboring to convince him of God’s abundant and amazing grace. Amazing grace can be a hard sell. Even today, some professing Christians find the bold message of “Amazing Grace” tough to stomach. Yet this radical message of God’s sovereign, life-transforming grace was the keynote of Newton’s ministry. Grace is amazing, as Newton discovered firsthand on the sinking Greyhound. Grace is free, sovereign, and sufficient. And yet, convincing sinners of God’s free grace, as Newton would discover, was a laborious full-time task. He became an apologist of God’s free and unmerited favor and devoted his life to confirming God’s grace and applying the promises of Scripture to the lives of his parishioners, his acquaintances, and his friends; and he did so through songs, sermons, and personal letters. From the hard lessons learned at his friend’s bedside, Newton would never make the mistake of assuming grace.



Sovereign Grace One of the most beautiful paradoxes in God’s wisdom is sovereign grace. The same grace that is unmerited is also unstoppable. Grace is a battering ram. Grace is forced entry.

And Newton’s famous hymn is filled with this sovereign grace. In another hymn he opens with this verse:

Sovereign grace has power alone​

Authoritative information about the hymn text Sovereign grace has power alone, with lyrics, PDF files, printable scores, MIDI files, and piano resources.

hymnary.org

Sovereign grace has pow’r alone To subdue a heart of stone;
And the moment grace is felt, Then the hardest heart will melt.14
Grace alone is powerful enough to break the sinner’s bondage to wickedness.
“His grace can overcome the most obstinate habits.”15
Grace breaks in to free and unshackle souls. Grace takes away the guilt of sin, the love of sin, and the dominion of sin, even hard sins like drunkenness.

In Him,

Bill

Bill, that hymn glories God.

I have unearthed scathing passages written by Calvin and posted about them, here. In all of my postings, I have insisted that Calvinist's and Calvin need the same Love that God showed to Omnis Creation when He died for Omnis Creation. I have specified that it is not wise to condemn a single soul, based on their doctrine, but that we Love Omnis Creation as Jesus commanded us to do.

Now, I will be clear to you, my Loving Brother in Jesus.

If you're here to exalt Men that follow a Man, then so be it. Ask me Who I am here to exalt. There is only ONE true purveyor of the ONE true Gospel and all men that He used to Seal Canon were mere objects that WILLINGLY surrendered to HIM. In the Old Testament, His name was YHWH, yet He said that He alone would be our Savior. So, even then, His name was YHWH is our Savior. After He finally centralized all Theos (God) ology (The study of) perfectly by HIS WORD, alone, he became known as YeHOshua, which post diaspora was spoken Yeshua, and to the Greek's, His name was Jesus. John 5:39

 

[tonychanyt]

Mark Quayle said:
I like that. I just wish that it didn't imply to some the notion that in fact THEY are the only cause of their own decisions, denying the pervasiveness of cause-and-effect.

Human beings (and angels, too, for that matter), mere creatures all.

I edited the OP to clarify. Please take another look.

God.

And the first thing/things he made is/are the first effect. And, as things go, the first effect causes second effect and so on

God is omniscient and omnipotent. In that sense, he is the first cause of everything. However, I would not detail all human events as logical consequences like that. There are probabilities and even the scientific Uncertainty Principle involved in any sequential process.

 

[childeye 2]

God Freely Gave us an individual Will, that is Free to Rebel! Rebel against what? Him or those that Rebel against Him.

The qualification of 'Free" you are using is an equivocation (You can't serve two masters). Whoever is rebelling against God is deceived, and that deceived will is not the same will/reasoning/desire God freely gave to anybody.

God's Word is the Light and Life of mankind. His Word (The Holy Spirit) would never advise rebellion against God. Hence God would never confuse faith with unfaith by characterizing them both as freedom of choice. But the spirit of the devil would. God is not the author of confusion. Based on my confidence that you recognize the Christ, I therefore declare the following statements as both true.

YOU DO NOT have the God given free will to believe and say on this forum that Jesus IS NOT the True Image of God sent by God.
YOU DO have the God given free will to believe and say on this forum that Jesus IS the True Image of God sent by God.

Am I right about that?

P.S. I'm not defending Calvinism.

 

[Grip Docility]

That qualification of 'Free" you are using is an equivocation.

God's Word is the Light and Life of mankind. His Word (The Holy Spirit) would never advise rebellion against God. Hence God would never confuse faith with unfaith by characterizing them both as freedom of choice. Based on my confidence that you know the Christ, I therefore declare the following statements as both true.

YOU DO NOT have the free will to believe and say on this forum that Jesus is not the True Image of God sent by God.

I am assuming that you are suggesting that manmade stipulations prevent a person from saying this thing that isn't true, on this Forum. I don't like those words, as I see them written, even though I know that you are making a point. However, it is a point that just isn't true. An equivalent point was that our Lord, God, WHO IS the ONLY ONE TRUE IMAGE, of God, was presented with the CHAINS or CONSTRAINTS of Satan and Men that God cannot be a Man... and He indeed DID REBEL against that Idea, when He said;​

Beginning at Luke 21:25 "Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near. Look at the fig tree, and all the trees. When they are already budding, you see and know for yourselves that summer is now near. So you also, when you see these things happening, know that the kingdom of God is near".​

That's my KING! He didn't fear DEATH! The kingdom of Satan and Man that PERPETUALLY seeks to control the man made in the very image of God to satiate it's pathetic controls and assumptions about man and God, utterly CANNOT do so! They can Crucify, Kill, Torture, Censor, attempt to eradicate but just as HE the first SEED to burst forth of the Father's Resurrection of HE, was the First fruit, we the First Fruits have no answer to this Power Hungry, Controlling,, Limited Freedom Kingdom of Man. We are ABOVE IT in our very Souls! We are Lambs that eagerly would walk into slaughter to say that Satan and Man seek to Control, yet the God We Serve is the True "Lady Liberty" in Whom all true Liberty flows FREELY. If I continued to go on, it might spark "Rebellion". Thus, I will stop here.​

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I indeed could say whatever I please and if cast asunder I would wipe my sandals as He commands. It is He that values FREE WILL, not Man and Satan. Satan constrains us as deeply as he can to worthless ideas and pursuits, yet even in the deepest and most powerful constraints of this world, HE (Jesus) can fill Samson (US) with the strength to cast those worldly ideas asunder as surely as Sampson toppled the pillars when even in our blind, pitiful, slave binding to the Mil, we would just SINCERELY cry out for His help, from within our mutilated Being.​

YOU DO have the free will to believe and say on this forum that Jesus is the True Image of God sent by God.

Am I right about that?

Consequences do not deny that there is Free Will. God's Loving provision is without limits. It is creation alone who limits creation. I CHOOSE to be constrained by Love! I WANT HIM TO KNOW THAT i DESIRE TO BE CONSTRAINED BY HIS LOVE. I don't care if the entire Universe argues against my purpose... I want Him to KNOW ME, as surely as HE desires me to know HIM.

Galatians 5:1 It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.

God doesn't Joke about Freedom. Satan and Man loath it. How much so? That they would deny that Free means free, even to the joints and marrow of the very Will within the Human Soul!

God gave an intimate Will that is Free, or less words to say FREE WILL to Creation and I will not freely give that will to anyone but Him Who Wills it Freely that I may Choose to do so of our God Given and Blessed FREE WILL, Dominion, Sovereignty.

"And I, brethren, when I came unto you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, proclaiming to you the testimony of God.... Now I consider myself in no way inferior to the “super-apostles.” 6 Though untrained in public speaking, I am certainly not untrained in knowledge. Indeed, we have always made that clear to you in everything. 7...................... I wish you would put up with a little foolishness from me. Yes, do put up with me. 2 For I am jealous over you with a godly jealousy, because I have promised you in marriage to one husband—to present a pure virgin to Christ. 3 But I fear that, as the serpent deceived Eve by his cunning, your minds may be seduced from a complete and pure devotion to Christ. "

@childeye 2 PS... I knew and know. I Love the Calvinist, while I ardently Rebuke and Reject Calvinism.