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What Is Fire?

FineLinen

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Our God is a consuming Fire

Fire Is A Beneficent Agent


How shallow is the common view of "fire" as only or chiefly a penal agent. Fire, in Scripture, is the element of....

"Life"....Isa. 4:5

"Purification"....Matt. 3:3

"Atonement"....Lev. 16:27

"Transformation".....2 Pet. 3:10

And never ever of preservation alive for purposes of anguish.

And the popular view selects precisely this latter use, never found in Scripture, and represents it as the sole end of God's fiery judgments! If we take either the teaching of Scripture or of nature, we see that the dominant conception of fire is of a beneficent agent. Nature tells us that fire is a necessary condition of life; its mission is to sustain life; and to purify, even when it dissolves.

Extinguish the stores of fire in the universe, and you extinguish all being; universal death reigns. Most strikingly is this connection of fire and life shown in the facts of nutrition. For we actually burn in order to live; our food is the fuel; our bodies are furnaces; our nutrition is a process of combustion; we are, in fact, "aflame to the very tips of our fingers." And so it is that round the fireside of life and work gather: when we think of home we speak of the family hearth.

Fire Is The Sign Of God's Being

And what Nature teaches, Scripture enforces in no doubtful tone. It is significant to find the Great Source of life constantly associated with fire in the Bible.

Fire is the sign, not of God's wrath, but of His being.

When God comes to Ezekiel there is a "fire unfolding itself" (Ezek. 1:4, 27) and "the appearance of fire." (Ezek. 8:2)

Christ's eyes are a flame of "fire" (Rev. 1:14).

The seven lamps of "fire" are the seven Spirits of God (Rev. 4:5). So a fiery stream is said "to go before God," His throne is fiery flame, its wheels are burning fire (Daniel 7:9,10). His eyes are lamps of fire (Dan. 10:6); He is a wall of fire (Zeph. 2:5). At His touch the mountains smoke (Psl. 104:32). And God's ministers are a flame of fire (Psl. 104:4...Heb. 1:7). It is not meant to deny that the Divine Fire chastises and destroys.

Purification, Not Ruin Is The Final Outcome

It is meant that purification, not ruin, is the final outcome of that fire from above, which consumes--call it, if you please, a paradox--in order that it may save. For if God is Love, then by what but by love can His fires be kindled? They are, in fact, the very flame of love; and so we have the key to the words, "Thy God is a consuming Fire," and "Thy God is a merciful God" (Deut. 4:24-31). So God devours the earth with fire, in order that finally all may call upon the name of the Lord (Zeph. 3:8,9)--words full of significance.

So Isaiah tells us of God's cleansing the daughters of Zion by the spirit of burning (Isa. 4:4)--suggestive words. And, so again, "By fire will the Lord plead with all flesh." (Isa. 66:16) And Christ coming to save, comes to purify by "fire." (Mal. 3:2).

Fire A Sign Of Favourable Response?

Let us note, also, how often "fire" is the sign of a favourable answer from God; when God appears to Moses at the Bush it is in "fire:" God answers Gideon by "fire;" and David by "fire." (1 Chron. 21:26) Again, when He answers Elijah on Carmel, it is by "fire;" and in "fire" Elijah himself ascends to God. So God sends to Elisha, for aid, chariots and horses of "fire." So when the Psalmist calls, God answers by "fire." (Psl. 18:6-8)

And by the pillar of "fire" God gave His law. And in "fire" the great gift of the Holy Ghost descends at Pentecost."

Fire Is The Portion Of All

These words bring us to the New Testament. There we find that "fire," like judgment, so far from being the sinner's portion ONLY, is the portion of all. Like God's judgment again, it is not future merely, but present; it is "already kindled," always kindled: its object is not torment, but cleansing. The proof comes from the lips of our Lord Himself. "I am come to send fire on the earth," for it is certain that He came as a Saviour. Thus, coming to save, Christ comes with fire, nay, with fire already kindled. He comes to baptize with the Holy Ghost, and with fire.

Therefore, it is that Christ teaches in solemn passage (usually misunderstood, Mark 9:43) that everyone shall be salted with fire. And so the "fire is to try every man's work." He whose work fails is saved (mark the word saved), not damned "so as by fire," by consuming what is evil, saves and refines.

The antient tradition that represents Christ as saying, "He that is near Me is near fire," expresses a vital truth. So Malachi, describes Christ as being in His saving work "like a refiner's fire." And so, echoing Deut 4:24-31, we are told that "our God is a consuming Fire," i.e., God in His closest relation to us; God is Love; God is Spirit: but "Our God is a consuming Fire"--a consuming Fire, "by which the whole material substance of sin is destroyed."

When, then, we read (Psl. 18:12) that "coals of fire" go before God, we think of the deeds of love which are "coals of fire" to our enemies. (Rom. 12:20) Thus, we who teach hope for all men, do not shrink from but accept, in their fullest meaning, these mysterious "fires" of gehenna, of which Christ speaks (kindled for purification), as in a special sense the sinner's doom in the coming ages. But taught by the clearest statements of Scripture (confirmed as they are by many analogies of Nature), we see in these "fires" not a denial of, but a mode of fulfilling, the promise--

"Behold, I make all things new."

-Christ Triumphant-
 

FineLinen

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The way for all is through the fires, for fire is the great uniter and reconciler of all things; and things which without fire can never be united, in and through the fire are changed and become one.

Therefore every coming of Christ, even in grace, is a day of judgment. Therefore there are fires even for the elect both now, (1 Pet. 1:7, and 4: 12) and in the coming day; (1 Cor. 3:. 13, 15.) for "our God is a consuming fire;" (Heb. 12: 29.) and to dwell in Him we must have a life, which, because it is of the fire, for fire burns not fire, can stand unhurt in it.

Therefore our Lord "came to cast fire into the earth," and desired nothing more than "that it should be already kindled;" (S. Luke 12: 49) therefore He says,
Mark 9: 49-
For this is the very "baptism of the Holy Ghost and fire," (Matt. 3: 11) that "spirit of judgment and burning," promised by the prophet, "with which the Lord shall purge away the filth of the daughters of Zion, and cleanse the blood of Jerusalem; after which He will create on every dwelling place of Mount Zion, and on all her assemblies, a cloud of smoke by day, and the brightness of flame of fire by night; and upon all, the glory shall be a defence; (Isa. 4: 4, 5) for "He is like a refiner's fire, and like a fuller's soap; and He shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver, and He shall purify the sons of Levi as gold and silver are purged, that they may offer to the Lord an offering of righteousness." (Mal. 3: 3). And as by the hidden fire of this present life, shut up in these bodies of corruption, we are able by the wondrous chemistry of nature through corruption to change the fruits and flesh of the earth into our blood, and from blood again into our flesh and bone and sinew; so by the fire of God can we be changed, and made partakers of Christ's flesh and blood. In and through Christ we have received this transmutation; (Rom. 5: 11) and through His Spirit, which is fire, is this same change accomplished in us.

NOTE:

Numbers 28: 6. By this double sense a veil covers the letter, veiling yet revealing God's purpose; for His purpose to the creature is through destruction to perfect it, and by fire to make it a bride unto the Lord. For a kindred reason some of the angels are called Seraphim, that is burning ones; for like the Lord, whose throne is flames of fire, (Dan. 7: 9,10.) they also are as fire; as it is written, "He makes His angels spirits, His messengers a flame of fire." (Heb. 1: 7, and Psalm 104:4)
And as with the first-fruits, so with the harvest. The world to be saved must some day know the same baptism. For "the Lord will come with fire," and "by fire and by His sword will He plead with all flesh, and the slain of the Lord shall be many." (Isa. 66: 15, 16.) The promised baptism or outpouring of the Spirit must be judgment, for the Spirit cannot be poured on man without consuming this flesh to quicken a better life;

NOTE:

James 1: 20) works both righteousness and life, and is set forth in that "warfare of the service of the tabernacle" (See Numbers 4: 23, 30, and 8: 24, 25; margin: and compare 1 Tim. 1: eighteen) by which that which was of the earth was made to ascend to God through fire a sweet sacrifice.
HERE

One thing I keep wondering is: How can a physical thing like fire cause damage, pain or suffering to a spiritual thing like a soul?
 
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FineLinen

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The way for all is through the fires, for fire is the great uniter and reconciler of all things; and things which without fire can never be united, in and through the fire are changed and become one.

Therefore every coming of Christ, even in grace, is a day of judgment. Therefore there are fires even for the elect both now, (1 Pet. 1:7, and 4: 12) and in the coming day; (1 Cor. 3:. 13, 15.) for "our God is a consuming fire;" (Heb. 12: 29.) and to dwell in Him we must have a life, which, because it is of the fire, for fire burns not fire, can stand unhurt in it.

Therefore our Lord "came to cast fire into the earth," and desired nothing more than "that it should be already kindled;" (S. Luke 12: 49) therefore He says,
Mark 9: 49-
For this is the very "baptism of the Holy Ghost and fire," (Matt. 3: 11) that "spirit of judgment and burning," promised by the prophet, "with which the Lord shall purge away the filth of the daughters of Zion, and cleanse the blood of Jerusalem; after which He will create on every dwelling place of Mount Zion, and on all her assemblies, a cloud of smoke by day, and the brightness of flame of fire by night; and upon all, the glory shall be a defence; (Isa. 4: 4, 5) for "He is like a refiner's fire, and like a fuller's soap; and He shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver, and He shall purify the sons of Levi as gold and silver are purged, that they may offer to the Lord an offering of righteousness." (Mal. 3: 3). And as by the hidden fire of this present life, shut up in these bodies of corruption, we are able by the wondrous chemistry of nature through corruption to change the fruits and flesh of the earth into our blood, and from blood again into our flesh and bone and sinew; so by the fire of God can we be changed, and made partakers of Christ's flesh and blood. In and through Christ we have received this transmutation; (Rom. 5: 11) and through His Spirit, which is fire, is this same change accomplished in us.

NOTE:

Numbers 28: 6. By this double sense a veil covers the letter, veiling yet revealing God's purpose; for His purpose to the creature is through destruction to perfect it, and by fire to make it a bride unto the Lord. For a kindred reason some of the angels are called Seraphim, that is burning ones; for like the Lord, whose throne is flames of fire, (Dan. 7: 9,10.) they also are as fire; as it is written, "He makes His angels spirits, His messengers a flame of fire." (Heb. 1: 7, and Psalm 104:4)
And as with the first-fruits, so with the harvest. The world to be saved must some day know the same baptism. For "the Lord will come with fire," and "by fire and by His sword will He plead with all flesh, and the slain of the Lord shall be many." (Isa. 66: 15, 16.) The promised baptism or outpouring of the Spirit must be judgment, for the Spirit cannot be poured on man without consuming this flesh to quicken a better life;

NOTE:

James 1: 20) works both righteousness and life, and is set forth in that "warfare of the service of the tabernacle" (See Numbers 4: 23, 30, and 8: 24, 25; margin: and compare 1 Tim. 1: eighteen) by which that which was of the earth was made to ascend to God through fire a sweet sacrifice.
HERE

One thing I keep wondering is: How can a physical thing like fire cause damage, pain or suffering to a spiritual thing like a soul?

Is it not strange the long seasons that can elapse on the back-side of the desert? Year by year falls into the great abyss, and at the juncture where we can no longer speak, and the great struggle to do the will of God vanishes into weakness and death, the Bush appears pulsating with Deity. It is there at the asamuth of death and weakness the Living One speaks.

"Take off your shoes from off your feet"

Holy ground! The place where dust and Divinity meet! It is there in absolute weakness and inability, the Lord manifests Himself as the God who raises the dead. The road into the Tree of Life is by way of the flaming swords swirling in every direction. Those who reach for the Tree will suffer the loss of the hand, the fingers, the grasp of all they are! And as the process of the swirling swords rage upon these ones, great loss is inflicted, for nothing, no one, comes to the other side the same as it enters..NOTHING!...NOTHING!...NOTHING!

The great stages of the Living One's glory must be in degrees of doxa. We are changed from one degree of glory to another and another! It requires a thought beginning in the mind of the caterpillar that ultimately leads to the building of a cocoon from which caterpillars become butterflies, and dust moves from the road of life into the Divine One, described as "the Living", the "I am", not the I was, the I AM.

It is this Heavenly Road that grasps us, the Heavenly One, the Source leading to the Road, the sustaining Guide of the Road, and the Goal of the Road. All things lead to Him, through Him and for Him! And by Him all things consist. It has taken me over 70 years to go a journey that could be accomplished in 11 days, but dust and Divinity must meet; the goal is not all the story, the path is of equal value in the I AM! Each of us are on different stages of our Father's drawing hand, some so wrapped up in themselves they cannot see the bush that is aflame and is not devoured. It is just a common bush for many, but

"Earth's crammed with heaven, and every common bush afire with God; and only he who sees takes off his shoes. -Eliz. Barrett Browning-
 
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FineLinen

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2 TIMOTHY1:6
I remind you to fan into flame the gift of God, which is in you through the laying on of my hands.

On Fire could mean burning with zeal, purpose & power to do the work of God.

Come in United Kingdom: Greetings my friend with Fire in your name, you have a wonderful thought expressed for us today. As F.L enters the final stages of a wonderful walk with Him in this realm of things, burning embers of lambent glow are my desire for my ultimate ending in Him. Much thanks for your contribution here.
 
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~Anastasia~

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How does this relate to Traditional Theology exactly?
"God IS consuming fire." What is not "Traditional Theology" regarding that fact?


It's true that God is compared to a consuming fire in Scripture. I too was watching the thread and wondering where you were going with it before I replied.

Different forums exist on CF for different purposes. Traditional Theology is a topic-driven forum. According to the Statement of Purpose - Traditional Theology Statement of Purpose

Traditional Theology -- A forum dedicated to the respectful discussion of traditional, historic theology; liturgical practices, doctrines, dogmatics; Holy Scripture as found in the various canons of the Church; Church History; classic confessions of the faith, etc.

This is a topic driven forum to bridge open discussion for those interested in all the ways traditional theology is expressed and lived around the world.

So within those guidelines, I really wasn't sure what sort of discussion you wanted. I didn't want to try to contribute and take it in a direction different from the one you envisioned.

Maybe you can help us out and let us know how you wish to relate this to Traditional Theology? Or maybe you're looking for a different sort of discussion and would prefer to have it moved somewhere that you can more easily get it? Whatever you like, please help us understand and we can help your discussion become more robust. :)
 
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FineLinen

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It's true that God is compared to a consuming fire in Scripture. I too was watching the thread and wondering where you were going with it before I replied.

Different forums exist on CF for different purposes. Traditional Theology is a topic-driven forum. According to the Statement of Purpose - Traditional Theology Statement of Purpose

Traditional Theology -- A forum dedicated to the respectful discussion of traditional, historic theology; liturgical practices, doctrines, dogmatics; Holy Scripture as found in the various canons of the Church; Church History; classic confessions of the faith, etc.

This is a topic driven forum to bridge open discussion for those interested in all the ways traditional theology is expressed and lived around the world.

So within those guidelines, I really wasn't sure what sort of discussion you wanted. I didn't want to try to contribute and take it in a direction different from the one you envisioned.

Maybe you can help us out and let us know how you wish to relate this to Traditional Theology? Or maybe you're looking for a different sort of discussion and would prefer to have it moved somewhere that you can more easily get it? Whatever you like, please help us understand and we can help your discussion become more robust. :)

My friend I appreciate the information. Since God is not "like" fire, but "is" fire, lets leave it here if possible. As for the robust discussion, where would you care to begin, or do you want to begin?
 
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~Anastasia~

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My friend I appreciate the information. Since God is not "like" fire, but"is" fire, lets leave it here if possible. As for the robust discussion, where would you care to begin, or do you want to begin?
It's your thread so I was trying to do you the courtesy of allowing the sort of discussion you had in mind, within the guidelines of the forum. :)
 
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FineLinen

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It's your thread so I was trying to do you the courtesy of allowing the sort of discussion you had in mind, within the guidelines of the forum. :)
My friend I appreciate the courtesy. If you choose to participate in this less than robust discussion, it would be a pleasure discussing aspects of the subject. The other day I spent many hours in "robust" discussion and would just as soon lay low for a while. However, I will try with this old frame of mine to arise to the daily challenge. May His great love and grace abound to you today!
 
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~Anastasia~

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My friend I appreciate the courtesy. If you choose to participate in this less than robust discussion, it would be a pleasure discussing aspects of the subject. The other day I spent many hours in "robust" discussion and would just as soon lay low for a while. However, I will try with this old frame of mine to arise to the daily challenge. May His great love and grace abound to you today!
LOL - I get the idea by "robust" you might mean debate. No worries. This is a non-debate forum. :)

I just meant that because this is a discussion forum, and you seemed to be the only one posting - which is more fitting maybe for the Devotionals area? But here we are meant to discuss topics in light of Tradition.

Ok ... well I don't want you to have to talk to yourself. But if you see this isn't what you want, it can be moved elsewhere. We are here to serve. :)


There are many aspects of Fire that are frequently present in our Tradition. From the moment we enter the Church, we light a candle that reminds us that Christ is the Light of the world. We are reminded especially frequently of the fiery furnace in which the three Hebrew youth were thrown - the fire that raged up to consume the soldiers standing nearby, but because of the Presence of Christ with them in the flames, they experienced as cool.

Yes, our God IS a consuming fire. The most important understanding of this has to do with the fact that God IS love. And yet He refines us in life, purifying us, if we follow Christ and cooperate with His grace. We are changed, transformed, from glory to glory, restoring both the image and likeness of Christ into which we were created. So that when we stand before God, Who IS love, we will be like Him, and will experience His Presence as delightful. Those who hate Him - are still loved by Him, but because of the way they have twisted their nature against Him, for them He will be that consuming fire. So our greatest desire in this life is to follow Christ, to be transformed by God's grace, in order to enjoy communion with Him in the life of the age to come forever. Glory to God!
 
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FIRESTORM314

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My friend I appreciate the courtesy. If you choose to participate in this less than robust discussion, it would be a pleasure discussing aspects of the subject. The other day I spent many hours in "robust" discussion and would just as soon lay low for a while. However, I will try with this old frame of mine to arise to the daily challenge. May His great love and grace abound to you today!

It's nice to see an "old man's" reflections on life and what he has learned over the years. There should be a forum for just that purpose. I do take note of all scripture when it comes to last words - there is always much wisdom to be found in them.

DANIEL 12:3
Those who are wise will shine like the brightness of the heavens, and those who lead many to righteousness, like the stars for ever and ever.

The flame never goes out my friend :)


God Bless
 
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FineLinen

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Very true also. :)
Dear Anastasia: I was warned by a little Birdie up above (in this link) the interaction would be limited at this location. Thank you for dropping in and may the One who gathers all of us into His loving arms bless you and yours today!
 
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FineLinen

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It's nice to see an "old man's" reflections on life and what he has learned over the years. There should be a forum for just that purpose. I do take note of all scripture when it comes to last words - there is always much wisdom to be found in them.

DANIEL 12:3
Those who are wise will shine like the brightness of the heavens, and those who lead many to righteousness, like the stars for ever and ever.

The flame never goes out my friend :)


God Bless

My goodness, that is an awesome name to bear! We will not have any of that "old man's stuff. Here at the beginning of year 76, my eyes now require glasses to complement the rest of an old geezers decline under the tyranny of change and decay. My brain was long ago affected, however, with what little remains: welcome to this less than dramatic corner of C.F. May His lovely Presence be yours again today!
 
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~Anastasia~

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Dear Anastasia: I was warned by a little Birdie up above (in this link) the interaction would be limited at this location. Thank you for dropping in and may the One who gathers all of us into His loving arms bless you and yours today!
God be with you. :)

It's just that different forums have different purposes. You might get what you're looking for in General Theology, or perhaps Spiritual Development or Devotions?

You can repost your thread in one of those if you like. :)
 
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FineLinen

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God be with you. :)

It's just that different forums have different purposes. You might get what you're looking for in General Theology, or perhaps Spiritual Development or Devotions?

You can repost your thread in one of those if you like. :)
God be with you. :)

It's just that different forums have different purposes. You might get what you're looking for in General Theology, or perhaps Spiritual Development or Devotions?

You can repost your thread in one of those if you like. :)

My dear Anastasia: I am most grateful to you for the "God be with you" blessing. He continues after all these many moons to prove Himself beyond all I can ask or think. The expanse of His glory is drawing all of us to Higher Ground.

At the moment I am consumed with a link started 16 days ago that demands more than old geezer can handle! For the moment, and it may be many moments, F.L. will leave the Fire post here and hopefully not too many will find it. LOL May Abba continue to be with us all!
 
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