Originally Posted by
zeke37
Jesus said no one has ascended.
to me, that means of his own accord.
you can't get to heaven without going through Jesus.
seems to me that you are reading more in the verse than it states.
probably more like...reading what we are "supposed" to already understand.
Originally Posted by
zeke37
and I was referencing Acts2 for David.
yes, his body is in the grave, but his spirit (conciousness) is in heaven waiting with the other righteous
to come back to earth with Christ and be raised on earth again, as promised.
as stated, your answer did not include any reference to acts 2 and i saw no inference.
sure I did..
merely mentioning David in reference to ascending to heaven, and no man ascending to heaven, doesn't leave to many choices of where to go for info.
But granted, it was my original assumption that the poster was referencing Acts2, when maybe he/she was not.
the bible says the direct opposite of you in relation to consciousness in death:
Psalms 146:4(NKJV)
4 His spirit departs, he returns to his earth; In that very day his plans perish. (see also eccl 9:5)
from the earth....sure....
the bible teaches that there are men in heaven, concious men....
1And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.
2And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?
3And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.
4And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.
5And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.
6And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
7And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.
8And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
9And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
10And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
11And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;
12Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.
13And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.
14And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.
9And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? (so the martyrs are in heaven, not on earth)
11And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
7And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
12Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
9And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.
10And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
8And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.
9Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.
...
..
.
16I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
Originally Posted by
zeke37
there is no contradiction.
as I have said, we have plently of biblical scripture that shows the dead in heaven doing things...
see the Rev quotes...Rev5, 12, 19, 22.
since there are dead in heaven, today, the Acts2 and John3 scriptures reference Jesus only, not us. It can't because we have plently of scripture showing the dead in heaven before the end comes.
so, Paul and Jesus refered to the WAY and POWER that one gets to heaven.
who else has ascended like Christ?
no one.
why?
because He's God.
who else sits at the right hand of God...not David or anyone else.
you do know that "the revelation" was a vision, right? a vision is not real, it's like a dream. so, the people in the books you referenced in revelation are also part of the vision, and the bible is quite clear as to where one goes at death:
sure it was a vision...but it has both symbolism and reality there.
Jesus also taught the same...which is why we have the rich man and lazarus story.
and why Jesus would teach in the gospels pertaining to the ressurection,
that Abraham Issac and Jacob all live, as our God is the God of the Living, not the dead.
Genesis 3:19(NKJV)
19 In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread Till you return to the ground, For out of it you were taken; For dust you are, And to dust you shall return.
our flesh bodies...sure...
but that is no contradiction with us having conciousness after death.
Ecclesiastes 9:10(NKJV)
10Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might; for there is no work or device or knowledge or wisdom in
the grave where you are going.
on earth, sure....
the bible is clear about where one goes at death, the grave!
yep, a figurative word, grave, meaning death itself.
no support for unconciousness.
Psalms 6:5(NKJV)
5 For in death there is no remembrance of You; In the grave who will give You thanks? (the answer is no one of course, why? because they're dead!)
of course. figurative. a poem/song.
and study these verses carefully, job explains very nicely:
Job 14:10-15(NKJV)
10 But man dies and is laid away; Indeed he breathes his last And where is he?
11 As water disappears from the sea, And a river becomes parched and dries up,
12 So man lies down and does not rise. Till the heavens are no more, They will not awake Nor be roused from their sleep.
13 Oh, that You would hide me in the grave, That You would conceal me until Your wrath is past, That You would appoint me a set time, and remember me!
14 If a man dies, shall he live again? All the days of my hard service I will wait, Till my change comes.
15 You shall call, and I will answer You; You shall desire the work of Your hands.
job knew that if one dies he's dead, not living, and he understood where one goes at death.
he also knew that unless one is brought back to life that one is still dead, or lifeless.
from...
Job 14 - Matthew Henry’s Commentary - Bible Commentary on Job 14:7-15
Commentary
(Read
Job 14:7-15)
Though a tree is cut down, yet, in a moist situation, shoots come forth, and grow up as a newly planted tree. But when man is cut off by death, he is for ever removed from his place in this world. The life of man may fitly be compared to the waters of a land flood, which spread far, but soon dry up. All Job's expressions here show his belief in the great doctrine of the resurrection. Job's friends proving miserable comforters, he pleases himself with the expectation of a change. If our sins are forgiven, and our hearts renewed to holiness, heaven will be the rest of our souls, while our bodies are hidden in the grave from the malice of our enemies, feeling no more pain from our corruptions, or our corrections.