What is Charismatic Neo-Gnosticism and Why Should it Be Resisted?

[Johnny Be Good]

In an attempt to increase the testosterone on this forum you are banned from using this word again.

Signed,
Arnold, Gubenor of Cow-lee-for-ea

I knew I was crossing the line too. Please forgive me.

:o

 

[Johnny Be Good]

When you hear it, there's no mistaking that voice. "My Sheep know My Voice.

Yes--the issue really is that some not only REJECT God's Word here, they then TURN from it and rely upon what THEY choose to believe as well. Stuff CONTRARY to scripture!

Does the Word say it or not. SEVERAL subjects we deal with here do not require a whole lot of interpretation and opinion--and these very basic beliefs are rejected time and time again. I'm thinking about God's definition of Faith, in particular right now--as opposed to some folks' clear rejection of scripture and their resultant reliance upon their own concepts of what Faith is.

 

[9-iron]

Isn't there a verse about God not giving us a snake or stone....??

 

[Andry]

Thanks Newsong.

I know what the big words mean. I simply meant, I ain't buying it.

I have a close personal relationship with my Father in heaven. I have for many, many years. It is not my interpretation. It's God's truth. I don't come up with "bizarre" interpretations. Some people think that I'm nuts, but I can give you scripture for every one of my beliefs. Additionally, I have seen the results in my own life. This is what they mean when they say the "proof of the pudding is in the eating".

I do not belong to a "cult". While it's true some say they have received revelation from God and then do something contrary to scripture, this is not what I do. Not even close. Most people that know me would say I am a very level-headed, balanced individual.

Historical teachers have much to offer. I am not refuting that. But when they teach something that goes contrary to God's character, I will take God's word over man's "interpretation" of what it meant any day.

Am I something special? Nope. Not at all. Every believer can have the same relationship with God. It's just a matter of desire, diligently seeking His face, to know Him more.

Dude, good on you that you have a genuine relationship with the Father. We all need revelation for our lives. Without that personal intimate relationship, then it's just religion - a set of do's and don'ts that we follow.

Revelation is a wonderful thing for our lives. Because there's a ton of stuff that the Bible doesn't cover about our lives, specific stuff....should I take this job or that job? Move here or there? What exactly is it that you want me to do God? That kind of revelation. And yes, of course you know it has to line up with Scripture....eg. getting a revelation that you should rob a bank to feed your kids is not from God.

The danger is, when a believer claims to have 'special' revelation that no others have and falls outside of orthodoxy - then we have a problem.

 

[JimB]

OK--I'm locked and loaded, AS USUAL.

FOR STARTERS, you start your thread, Jim, by stating, "“I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not hold out against it”--which implies that YOU think that our Trust in God BECAUSE OF what scripture CLEARLY says Faith IS, is not only dead wrong, but unneeded as well--cause no matter what we do, God's gonna build His church. Heck--why even bother with the Great Commission. I guess God was wrong there too.



SECONDLY, BY DEFINITION, you are practicing Gnosticism. What does this mean to you, Jim? "...it is okay to reject objective truth for subjective revelation"? Have you noticed that you reject what scripture says--WHAT IT SAYS--in order to rely instead upon what YOU think God means.



Have you noticed that your entire post speaks nothing but generalities?! Just what is it that you disagree with? We know that you believe in divine healing--and this is the only specific subject dealt with in your slanderous spew of a post. Tewwey--it's neither not nor cold. Nothing but slanderous, misleading personally-held-belief support.

List your issues and we shall deal with the BY WHAT SCRIPTURE SAYS and NOT through subjective revelation.

Tewwey!

Johnny, I would rather stick to the subject of the OP (as general as it is) and not enter into “doubtful disputations” with you over matter we have dealt with before. In this case, it is better to let dead dogs remain dead rather than inflame old animosities. There are just some things you and I will never agree on.

However if you want to open your own thread and deal with less-general, more-specific things, I will gladly post there, providing we can avoid such personally insulting remarks as

Have you noticed that your entire post speaks nothing but generalities?! Just what is it that you disagree with? We know that you believe in divine healing--and this is the only specific subject dealt with in your slanderous spew of a post. Tewwey--it's neither not nor cold. Nothing but slanderous, misleading personally-held-belief support.

Slander carries with it the meaning of an intentional agenda and that is pre-judgment on your part, judging motives. And it is the stuff that causes me to ignore your position. Furthermore, I did not see one scripture reference in your entire post (except quoting the one Ioffered in the OP) - in fact, I hardly ever find scripture references in any of your posts. Isn't this calling the kettle black?

I am hoping, Johnny, that what I say is not my own independent interpretation but falls within the parameters of orthodoxy. Most denominations, ours included, have within their statement of beliefs a statement similar to this one:
“WE BELIEVE that the Holy Spirit inspired the human authors of Holy Scriptures so that the Bible is without error in the original manuscripts. We receive the sixty-six books of the Old and New Testaments as our final, absolute authority, the only infallible rule of faith and practice.”

Of course, everything is a matter of interpretation but we must guard against independent interpretation lest we stray into error. You and I disagree (sometimes passionately) on interpretations of scripture but each of us, hopefully, do not do it independently or subjectively and submit ourselves to Scripture as best as we humans have been able to understand it. I trust the Holy Spirit has safeguarded truth for us.

I agree, that as the Spirit personally guides me, he may speak rhema to my spirit. But rhema cannot invalidate logos or there is no such thing as truth. Still, because I am human and make mistakes I have to try the spirits to see if they are of God or not and prove all things so that I may hold fast that which is true. That IMO is what the Scripture is for. And scripture has been interpreted for us in the teaching and writings of the church through 2,000 turbulent years. That is orthodoxy. I am safe, I feel, when I do not ignore the wisdom God has given us through the teachers he has graciously given to the church through the centuries.

Hence, the common faith once delivered to the saints is not a matter of private revelation especially when/if it violates received scripture.

I hope we can agree on this. If not, we are on two different poles of one of the most fundamental principles that has guided the church since the Apostles.

~Jim

 

[Johnny Be Good]

The danger is, when a believer claims to have 'special' revelation that no others have and falls outside of orthodoxy - then we have a problem.

OH--you mean like when someone believes something that doesn't jive in any way or form with scripture. Now I understand. Like folks' 'special' interpretation of Faith, for example--you know--the one that allows them to NOT have to step out in complete Trust in God--the one that gives them foot and hand-holds every step of the way? The one that allows them to consider doubt and ponder fear's possibilities as opposed to casting your cares upon Him and thinking on good things.

I understand what Jim means now--like when folks' 'special' interpretation of "Faith" doesn't at all look like the Faith that scripture describes.

Gotcha.

 

[SOLDOUT4HIM]

Pure and simple, if God tells you something it will line up with Scripture. One of the only things God does not have the capacity to do is lie. He will not give you "revelation" that is contrary w/ His word. Period.

I had a prof. at comm. coll. who believed in the esoteric gnostic bull dukey. He was a stinking fruit cake. He believed there'd been like three or four christs and that the original Christian Eucharist was a psychotropic mushroom. He admitted to smoking out with witchdoctoresque ppl in South America to have "spiritual experiences." That class was a trip.

 

[probinson]

Cut from Wikiepedia:

Orthodoxy:
The word orthodoxy, from the Greek ortho ('right', 'correct') and dox ('thought', 'teaching'), is typically used to refer to the correct observance of religion, as determined by some overseeing body.

The danger is, when a believer claims to have 'special' revelation that no others have and falls outside of orthodoxy - then we have a problem.

Does someone believing something that is not of the majority opinion of orthodoxy, or the "right teaching as determined by man", necessarily and unequivocally make it wrong?

 

[Johnny Be Good]

Johnny, I would rather stick to the subject of the OP (as general as it is) and not enter into “doubtful disputations” with you over matter we have dealt with before. In this case, it is better to let dead dogs remain dead rather than inflame old animosities. There are just some things you and I will never agree on.

However if you want to open your own thread and deal with less-general, more-specific things, I will gladly post there...

Your post was designed SPECIFICALLY to slander and malign in generalities so as not to allow specific Truth to emerge--and this is what you are transparently attempting to pursue with it.

Shame on you.

 

[Johnny Be Good]

Cut from Wikiepedia:

Orthodoxy:
The word orthodoxy, from the Greek ortho ('right', 'correct') and dox ('thought', 'teaching'), is typically used to refer to the correct observance of religion, as determined by some overseeing body.



Does someone believing something that is not of the majority opinion of orthodoxy, or the "right teaching as determined by man", necessarily and unequivocally make it wrong?

Of course--DUH! Just ask a Pharisee!



Or Jesus.

 

[JimB]

Cut from Wikiepedia:

Orthodoxy:
The word orthodoxy, from the Greek ortho ('right', 'correct') and dox ('thought', 'teaching'), is typically used to refer to the correct observance of religion, as determined by some overseeing body.


Does someone believing something that is not of the majority opinion of orthodoxy, or the "right teaching as determined by man", necessarily and unequivocally make it wrong?

And the “overseeing body” in the definition you offered would, of course, be the faith one delivered to THE CHURCH. I agree with the definition.

And to answer your last question, “Yes.” No man lives to himself or dies to himself.

~Jim

 

[Johnny Be Good]

Pure and simple, if God tells you something it will line up with Scripture. One of the only things God does not have the capacity to do is lie. He will not give you "revelation" that is contrary w/ His word. Period.

I had a prof. at comm. coll. who believed in the esoteric gnostic bull dukey. He was a stinking fruit cake. He believed there'd been like three or four christs and that the original Christian Eucharist was a psychotropic mushroom. He admitted to smoking out with witchdoctoresque ppl in South America to have "spiritual experiences." That class was a trip.

Jim--have you ever been a college prof?

 

[Andry]

OH--you mean like when someone believes something that doesn't jive in any way or form with scripture. Now I understand. Like folks' 'special' interpretation of Faith, for example--you know--the one that allows them to NOT have to step out in complete Trust in God--the one that gives them foot and hand-holds every step of the way? The one that allows them to consider doubt and ponder fear's possibilities as opposed to casting your cares upon Him and thinking on good things.

I understand what Jim means now--like when folks' 'special' interpretation of "Faith" doesn't at all look like the Faith that scripture describes.

Gotcha.

You're adding a load of stuff I never said.

I'm thinking David Koresh as an example. He 'knew' stuff that no one else had because God gave it only to him.

JBG, why are you picking a gunfight when there isn't one?

 

[probinson]

And the “overseeing body” in the definition you offered would, of course, be the faith one delivered to THE CHURCH. I agree with the definition.

And to answer your last question, “Yes.” No man lives to himself or dies to himself.

~Jim

Wow. That's a bold statement. How many children of Israel were there? How many thought they should take the promised land?

The majority is not always right.

 

[JimB]

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Your post was designed SPECIFICALLY to slander and malign in generalities so as not to allow specific Truth to emerge--and this is what you are transparently attempting to pursue with it.

Shame on you.

When are you going to offer your own scripture, Johnny, and stop with the judgments and insults? You NEVER offer scripture in ANY of your rebuttals, EVER, just an endless stream of accusations and invectives.

I can see this conversation already headed toward the inevitable brick wall.

Buh-bye!

~Jim

 

[Andry]

Does someone believing something that is not of the majority opinion of orthodoxy, or the "right teaching as determined by man", necessarily and unequivocally make it wrong?

Read my David Koresh post.

 

[probinson]

Read my David Koresh post.

But David Koresh's "revelations" could be shown to be clearly unscriptural. That is worlds apart from a preacher saying that they have a revelation of God's provison for us.

 

[Andry]

But David Koresh's "revelations" could be shown to be clearly unscriptural. That is worlds apart from a preacher saying that they have a revelation of God's provison for us.

Dude, I've been responding to your posts and your line of thought.

You have revelation from God....about your life. Great. Me too. Agreed?

It has to fall in line with Scripture. They do? Great. Me too. Agreed?

Now do you have any 'special' revelations about the church and God's Kingdom that no other believer has because God's only revealed it to you and no one else, and therefore you are the voice of God in this revelation? No? Me too. Agreed?

Has your pastor ever proclaimed, because you believed he was being led by the Holy Spirit, a specific word - a revelation - from God about a member of the congregation? Yes? Mine too. Agreed?

Orthodoxy provides good guidleines and boundaries for the church. It doesn't mean they're infallible. But they do give us a strong basis to fall back onto. Like the Nicene Creed, the Apostles Creed, and even the Old Roman Creed.

 

[Johnny Be Good]

When are you going to offer your own scripture, Johnny, and stop with the judgments and insults? You NEVER offer scripture in ANY of your rebuttals, EVER, just an endless stream of accusations and invectives.

I can see this conversation already headed toward the inevitable brick wall.

Buh-bye!

~Jim

Jim--you want scripture to support this:

Your post was designed SPECIFICALLY to slander and malign in generalities so as not to allow specific Truth to emerge--and this is what you are transparently attempting to pursue with it.

Shame on you.

??? You're kidding, right?

Or how about this:

OH--you mean like when someone believes something that doesn't jive in any way or form with scripture. Now I understand. Like folks' 'special' interpretation of Faith, for example--you know--the one that allows them to NOT have to step out in complete Trust in God--the one that gives them foot and hand-holds every step of the way? The one that allows them to consider doubt and ponder fear's possibilities as opposed to casting your cares upon Him and thinking on good things.

I understand what Jim means now--like when folks' 'special' interpretation of "Faith" doesn't at all look like the Faith that scripture describes.

Gotcha.

OK. Here's the supporting scripture on Faith:

http://www.biblegateway.com/keyword/index.php?search=faith&searchtype=all&version1=31&spanbegin=1&spanend=73startnumber=151&startnumber=137

What are your questions regarding Faith?

Wait--don't tell me--Faith isn't the subject here. It's a general, completely vague definition of Gnosticism.

 

[JimB]

To answer a previous post, Yes, I have taught in a bible college. I taught homiletics and church history at Southern Bible College, Houston, (affiliated with the Pentecostal Church of God) in the mid-80s before the college merged with Messenger College in Joplin MO. Bert Waggoner, currently national director of the Association of Vineyard Churches, also taught there at that time.

~Jim