What is Charismatic Neo-Gnosticism and Why Should it Be Resisted?

[JimB]

This thread is hurting my heart.

Mine too, Newlamb. Then maybe is was that pizza I ate yesterday.

~Jim

 

[JimB]

Now, back to the OP. Has anyone had a concern about the ancient heresy of Gnosticism raising it old gray head right here in our midst? I feel that this is important and so do many others (just do a web search of “gnosticism charismatic pentecostal” on your search engine and you’ll see what I mean).

~Jim

 

[Leimeng]

Now, back to the OP. Has anyone had a concern about the ancient heresy of Gnosticism raising it old gray head right here in our midst? I feel that this is important and so do many others (just do a web search of “gnosticism charismatic pentecostal” on your search engine and you’ll see what I mean).

~Jim

~ Gnosticism has been around a long time. One of the most prevalent instances in history would be much a lot of the doctrines of Calvin. Another place gnosticism exists more recently is in the anti-Faith/anti-Word cult.
~ Wisdom comes from God, not man, not some intepretation by an organization. If you want orthodoxy, you can go ask the Greek Orthodox Church and they will give it to you. Read history, read the Bible and get over it.
~ Continue to discuss amongst yourselves...

Peace,

Leimeng

Flatulo Ergo Sum ~~~

(***Insert Personal One Liner Here***)

 

[JimB]

*****
~Another place gnosticism exists more recently is in the anti-Faith/anti-Word cult.
~ Wisdom comes from God, not man, not some intepretation by an organization. If you want orthodoxy, you can go ask the Greek Orthodox Church and they will give it to you. Read history, read the Bible and get over it.
*****

You will have to explain your first sentence (above) to me. Most of the charges of Gnsoticism are aimed at Word-Faith people (as well as P/Cs). This is the first time I have heard it used toward those who oppose Word-Faith. ‘Splain yourself.

As for the second sentence, this is the very kind of belief that has marked P/C/Ws as neo-Gnostic.

Maybe you need to read your history and your Bible, too.

~Jim

 

[JimfromOhio]

You will have to explain your first sentence (above) to me. Most of the charges of Gnsoticism are aimed at Word-Faith people (as well as P/Cs). This is the first time I have heard it used toward those who oppose Word-Faith. ‘Splain yourself.

As for the second sentence, this is the very kind of belief that has marked P/C/Ws as neo-Gnostic.

Maybe you need to read your history and your Bible, too.

~Jim

I was wondering myself too. Will wait for his response.

 

[JimB]

I was wondering myself too. Will wait for his response.

Yep. This answer should be very interesting.

~Jim

 

[riverpastor]

Most of the charges of Gnosticism are aimed at Word-Faith people (as well as P/Cs).

Then, Jim, this must have been what you were aiming at as well.


If you want to label me a gnostic (and not a gnome) then feel free. I've been called worse!

You see, I do believe in unfolding and continuous revelation from the Father.

Jesus said "the sheep hear My voice".

A lot of sheep today have "heard" His voice. But, He is still talking to us.

We can still "hear" (actively, now, in the present moment) His voice.

This didn't end just because the scriptures were canonized. This didn't end just because we have commentaries and theological (and might I add philosophical theology) dissertations.

If all these things were wiped off the face of the earth today, would that change the fact that He still speaks to those who listen?

You used to own a bookstore...

Did you ever sell E. W. Kenyon books there? What about Norvel Hayes, Fred K. C. Price, Kenneth Hagin or Kenneth Copeland???

 

[JimB]

Then, Jim, this must have been what you were aiming at as well.


If you want to label me a gnostic (and not a gnome) then feel free. I've been called worse!

You see, I do believe in unfolding and continuous revelation from the Father.

Jesus said "the sheep hear My voice".

A lot of sheep today have "heard" His voice. But, He is still talking to us.

We can still "hear" (actively, now, in the present moment) His voice.

This didn't end just because the scriptures were canonized. This didn't end just because we have commentaries and theological (and might I add philosophical theology) dissertations.

If all these things were wiped off the face of the earth today, would that change the fact that He still speaks to those who listen?

You used to own a bookstore...

Did you ever sell E. W. Kenyon books there? What about Norvel Hayes, Fred K. C. Price, Kenneth Hagin or Kenneth Copeland???

Sure. I am a Charismatic myself (by definition) and so it is good for me/us to step back and take another look at what I/we believe. That is actually what I am aiming at. No need to be defensive.

Owning a bookstore does not mean that I monitor what everyone believes or only stock those that I have particular fondness for. I never stocked Kenyon but the others, well, I am not sure which ones I stocked, but some of them, sure. A bookstore is a service business, not just to those who believe what I believe, but to the whole body of Christ. If I owned a bookstore again I would feel obligated to do the same thing.

But, to be honest, I never stocked Charismatic-bashing books or books that bashed individuals. That was the only time I recall that I did not service in-stock the entire Christian community. However, if customers wanted me to special order Hanegraaf-MacArthur type books, I felt it was my duty to service them (as much as I hated it).

~Jim

 

[riverpastor]

Please don't see it as defensive. I was just wondering how you see yourself in this.

And I was wondering how what you believe now would affect what you would put on your bookshelves. You already answered that question for the past. You may feel differently now about some things now than you did then. I don't know.

Would you feel it a responsibility to safeguard others from the teachings of Kenyon and such? (I mean, I understand you would "special order" it if asked, maybe...)

 

[JimB]

Please don't see it as defensive. I was just wondering how you see yourself in this.

And I was wondering how what you believe now would affect what you would put on your bookshelves. You already answered that question for the past. You may feel differently now about some things now than you did then. I don't know.

Would you feel it a responsibility to safeguard others from the teachings of Kenyon and such? (I mean, I understand you would "special order" it if asked, maybe...)

No, I would do it the same way. I never stocked Kenyon because there was really no demand for his books in our part of the world. I tried to stock best-selling books and the top selling backorder titles (that’s just good business). Kenyon was never in either group. I did special order Kenyon books on a few occasions.

~Jim

 

[riverpastor]

I believe that we should not "go after" revelation for the sake of revelation.

The definition of "Gnosticism" seems very vague. Where is the line where one might say that a Christian is falling into gnosticism during moments of communion and fellowship with Christ in his life???

We should, I believe, expect the Lord to speak to us while we are in meditation of the Word in the Spirit. He leads us by these very methods... His Word and His Spirit. And these agree as One.

Communion in the Spirit is the adventure, and scripture is the saftey net.

 

[Andrew]

This is the classical shell game where the difference of definitions destroys the dialogue.
"Revelation Knowledge" as concieved by WoF and many non-WoF P/Cs does not mean "new revelation".
"Revelation Knowledge" simply means to have belief imparted to your heart rather than merely memorized in your head.

Ah, well said!

If one does not receive revelation knowledge when he reads the Bible, then it is a dead Bible that he is reading. No, the Word is life, dynamic and alive. Not static with only one interpretation yesterday, today and forever more -- as long as your revelation does not contradict the rest of scripture.

The las part is of cse, where most of us disagree.

 

[JimB]

I believe that we should not "go after" revelation for the sake of revelation.

The definition of "Gnosticism" seems very vague. Where is the line where one might say that a Christian is falling into gnosticism during moments of communion and fellowship with Christ in his life???

We should, I believe, expect the Lord to speak to us while we are in meditation of the Word in the Spirit. He leads us by these very methods... His Word and His Spirit. And these agree as One.

Communion in the Spirit is the adventure, and scripture is the saftey net.

I have no problem with the fact that the Lord speaks to us and reveals things to us. However, I think when private revelation supplants the Word of God as in the first century it can be labeled Gnosticism, or at least a form of neo-Gnosticism.

~Jim

 

[Andrew]

heretic, gnosticism... what's the difference?!

who here has the right to say that another's interpretation supplants the Word?

If I disagree with you (and the church you represent) over an issue (there are so many debate threads here) and conclude that your 'revelation' goes against scripture, do I then start calling you a gnostic and your church a cult?

somehow, people who post such threads are simply saying, My church has it right, yours has it wrong. The other party is probably saying the same thing.

If our criteria for saying that one is a gnostic or a heretic is: Your revelation supplants the Word or goes against scripture, then isn't it the biggest joke!?

I mean, when we debate and disagree in some of the threads, we're basically saying: "You are wrong becos your interpretation is wrong and it goes against scripture." so who here is not a gnostic?

 

[riverpastor]

If the Lord shares a particular Truth to me BY His Spirit THROUGH His Word, then what is this "revelation" consist of?

Do I deny the Truth that the Spirit gives? Or reject the script of the Word?

Why does there have to be an opposition here? The Word agrees with the Spirit and the Spirit with the Word... (1 John 5:7)

Do the two have to be "pitted against each other"?

Jesus was the Cornerstone (BTW), and Paul stated that he built upon that foundation as did other teachers that came after he established a church in an area. These teachers built upon that which Paul taught upon and upon the Cornerstone.

Once again, like the Dead Sea as an analogy... if water only flows in but never flows out, then it becomes stagnate.

The Word and the Spirit agree. Sad to say, not all theologians agree with the Spirit of the Lord.

We must have a place where we build our own lives upon the Spirit and the Word and not what others say the Spirit or the Word say FOR US.

Experiencing the voice of the Spirit of God is just as important as "reading" or "studying" the scripture. We must build upon both and not just one or the other.

What the Holy Spirit says does not change scripture!

It can, however, change how we PERSONALLY see scripture.

Nobody can lock God up between the 66 books of the Bible only.

If we can, then we have already ousted Him from our "churches". Bye bye, Holy Spirit.

How do we understand a God who hates divorce but is Himself divorced? He is the Bright and Morning Star yet He hides Himself in darkness? He loves mankind, yet He hated Esau?

 

[Andry]

RP....we just need to distinguish what the differences are I think. Of late, there are posters here - no names - that have state they have received a 'word' - or a 'revelation' - from God and admittedly said their 'word' did not have to conform with Scripture, because God told them. The fact that their 'word' did not agree with Scripture was beside the point to them, and that we - those of us who haven't received this 'word' - had better listen if we wanted to pursue God.

So while there are those of us who do not necessarily encourage or even believe in the revelations of the Holy Spirit for today and rely totally on the written Word, there is also the other extreme that rely solely on 'a word from the Holy Spirit' and not the written Word as confirmation.

 

[riverpastor]

Hey, andry... like your referee uniform!

Oh, it's all clear to me now...

I do have a question though, is it possible that something that Jesus said or did as recorded in the Gospels be contradicted by "theology" pulled directly from scripture???

Some can support one viewpoint with scripture while others can support a totally different viewpoint from scriptures (sometimes, the same scriptures~!)

AND, does experience in the Spirit have anything to do, then, with how we "see" or "understand" scripture?

Some may see love and mercy where others see judgement and damnation...

 

[JimfromOhio]

After watching threads in P/C, I just simply seeing dangers of people are willing to go blindly accepting "revelation knowledge." The issue between the rhema vs. logos doctrines. Logos is said to be the "written Word of God," while rhema is considered the "spoken Word of God." I am seeing experience and person's revelations are increasingly taking precedence over the written Word of God. I am fully aware (not sure if some of you are) that Satan will use any tactics to distract me from God including his giving us revelations. (See Ephesians 6:10-20). My Revelations are important when the Holy Spirit is speaking to me. I am careful not to be gullible, unsuspecting and naive when I receive revelations. When reading the Word of God, the Spirit illuminates our understanding of God's Word so I am transformed by God's principles as He applies them to my life.

When I was looking for a home church, P/C churches were on my list but now, watching these threads, I am just seeing lack of spiritual control and spiritual discernments. Like I said... everyone's testimonies here have been great and I have learned alot. Its a sad and rude awakening.

 

[riverpastor]

Then stay where you are, JimfromOhio. If you're more afraid of getting hooked by the devil than you are set free by the Holy Spirit, more power to ya.

The very "restraint" that you speak of comes from the same Holy Spirit which is speaking to our hearts today.

Just how much more, IYO, is the devil over the Holy Spirit?

 

[JimfromOhio]

Then stay where you are, JimfromOhio. If you're more afraid of getting hooked by the devil than you are set free by the Holy Spirit, more power to ya.

The very "restraint" that you speak of comes from the same Holy Spirit which is speaking to our hearts today.

Just how much more, IYO, is the devil over the Holy Spirit?

LOL... thanks !! Actually I am set free by the Holy Spirit. Just not the same way as I see in this thread. I can see the "Armor of God" is not being practiced here. Let me see.. is your message coming from the evil spirit or Holy Spirit?