What is Charismatic Neo-Gnosticism and Why Should it Be Resisted?

[FrankFaith]

. . . I really do not care what they have to say because they have no concern for me.... that is not their motivation. They are just control freaks who have shown me no reason why I should care what they have to say. That is what makes a basher a basher.

I wonder . . . would we consider Jesus a basher? He brought division--ON PURPOSE!



I think that a good point here is that, since we can not know ANYONE's heart here, save His, we should listen on purpose--even when it's difficult. I agree that maintaining an open mind/heart at the sound of some people's sharp words is difficult, but not impossible. It's always beneficial. We all fall far short of perfection. Who says we are to disregard harsh words? God uses all things for good for those who love Him. A wise man said we should listen twice as much as speak.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Oh man, Dids, you are the master of diplomacy. Thanks.

~Jim

I am as guilty as any when it comes to harsh answers. I should take my own advice my brother.

I wish this could be our debaters motto:

Pro 15:1 NASB
1 A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Perhaps a code of conduct on how to respond to those who appear to be bashers and heresy hunters:

Give the benefit of the doubt...
Give a gentle answer....
Find something nice to say in response...
If you cannot say anything nice.. do not say anything.

I wonder . . . would we consider Jesus a basher? He brought division--ON PURPOSE!



I think that a good point here is that, since we can not know ANYONE's heart here, save His, we should listen on purpose--even when it's difficult. I agree that maintaining an open mind/heart at the sound of some people's sharp words is difficult, but not impossible. It's always beneficial. We all fall far short of perfection. Who says we are to disregard harsh words? God uses all things for good for those who love Him. A wise man said we should listen twice as much as speak.

 

[Christina M]

I wish this could be our debaters motto:

Pro 15:1 NASB
1 A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.

"Gentle" can be a subjective word.......as well as "harsh".

 

[Andry]

I wonder . . . would we consider Jesus a basher? He brought division--ON PURPOSE!

Interesting observation. Quite honestly, if I were a Pharisee, a scribe or teacher of the law during Jesus' time on earth.....I don't know whether I would have received his words or not.

How about you?

 

[SavedByGrace3]

"Gentle" can be a subjective word.......as well as "harsh".

I suppose a punch in the nose is gentle when compared to a a-bomb.

 

[FrankFaith]

Perhaps a code of conduct on how to respond to those who appear to be bashers and heresy hunters:

Give the benefit of the doubt...
Give a gentle answer....
Find something nice to say in response...
If you cannot say anything nice.. do not say anything.

Whoa, bro. Who says harsh is always a bad thing?

Pro 15:1 NASB
1 A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.

I don't read that into this verse. That is not at all what this verse is saying to us. This verse is pointing out the obvious, not giving a directive.

Not only was Jesus angry, God himself was angry throughout the entire old Testiment.

Doesn't God detest the luke warm?

Not only CAN we be angry, yet sin not--we SHOULD be angry and sin not sometimes. It's the 'when' that we need to leave up to the Holy Spirit and not come up with our own plan TO, or NOT TO, get speak harshly or gently.

I think the devil can deceive us into thinking that gentleness is ALWAYS a God thing when it's not ALWAYS.

 

[victoryword]

VW,

Please understand, I love my balanced WOF friends and they have taught me a lot. It is, as it is in the Vineyard and every other group, the extremists that blacken the movement’s eye and make the most noise and, unfortuately, get the most attention. The extremists usually identify us.

Sometimes I get the old, “So, you’re Vineyard. You into that Toronto stuff?” or “So, You’re Vineyard. You into that Kansas City stuff?” Neither Toronto or Kansas City, though they are part of our history, identify the Vineyard of 2005. If it did, I wouldn’t be Vineyard at all. Sometimes even the good terms we invent to define a doctrine get stained by those who misuse and mis-define them. When that happens, it may become necessary to change our terms.

I understand what you are saying and see your point.

~Jim

Jim

I don't doubt your love. What I had trouble with was your stereotyping in the post that I responded to. But I am glad that you see my point.

By the way, I think the Vineyard does a better job of refuting cessationist theology than Word-Faith preachers do. It would be nice though if both movements could learn from one another.

Recently, Randy Clark (Vineyard) and Joe McIntyre (President of the E. W. Kenyon Society) have been ministering together. Randy has become more open to the faith message and asks McIntyre to teach it at his meetings and McIntyre has related to me that he is impressed with the miraculous at Clark's meetings. This is not to say that they have been in full agreement with one another's theology, but they have attempted to learn from one another and minister together.

 

[JimB]

Jim

I don't doubt your love. What I had trouble with was your stereotyping in the post that I responded to. But I am glad that you see my point.

By the way, I think the Vineyard does a better job of refuting cessationist theology than Word-Faith preachers do. It would be nice though if both movements could learn from one another.

Recently, Randy Clark (Vineyard) and Joe McIntyre (President of the E. W. Kenyon Society) have been ministering together. Randy has become more open to the faith message and asks McIntyre to teach it at his meetings and McIntyre has related to me that he is impressed with the miraculous at Clark's meetings. This is not to say that they have been in full agreement with one another's theology, but they have attempted to learn from one another and minister together.

Actually Randy Clark has not been in the Vineyard since September 2001, when he resigned claiming his Arminian leanings was alienating him from other Vineyard pastors. I do not understand that. I am theologically Arminian, as are other Vineyard pastors I know, and we feel no such alienation from our more Calvinist brothers. I will take his word for it, though, although I suspect there is more to the story than has been told.

~Jim

 

[SavedByGrace3]

I just doubt there are very many people in the church world today who are qualified to demonstrate righteous anger.
Most of the anger we see demonstrated here is just flesh, frustration, and bullying.
One of the most disgusting things I have ever seen was a rerun of an old Jimmy Swaggart show where he was showing "righteous indignation" towards sexual deviates. :o

Who would you say is qualified to show forth anger?

The lukewarm thing.
Jesus wants one of the two extremes...
He wants refreshingly cool or vibrant heat.
Really nothing to do with anger... rather spiritual disposition.

Whoa, bro. Who says harsh is always a bad thing?

Pro 15:1 NASB
1 A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.

I don't read that into this verse. That is not at all what this verse is saying to us. This verse is pointing out the obvious, not giving a directive.

Not only was Jesus angry, God himself was angry throughout the entire old Testiment.

Doesn't God detest the luke warm?

Not only CAN we be angry, yet sin not--we SHOULD be angry and sin not sometimes. It's the 'when' that we need to leave up to the Holy Spirit and not come up with our own plan TO, or NOT TO, get speak harshly or gently.

I think the devil can deceive us into thinking that gentleness is ALWAYS a God thing when it's not ALWAYS.

 

[FrankFaith]

I just doubt there are very many people in the church world today who are qualified to demonstrate righteous anger.
Most of the anger we see demonstrated here is just flesh, frustration, and bullying.
One of the most disgusting things I have ever seen was a rerun of an old Jimmy Swaggart show where he was showing "righteous indignation" towards sexual deviates. :o

Who would you say is qualified to show forth anger?

The lukewarm thing.
Jesus wants one of the two extremes...
He wants refreshingly cool or vibrant heat.
Really nothing to do with anger... rather spiritual disposition.

I was not endorsing anger as a policy--I was intending to show the context of Pro 15:1. No matter the outcome, we must fully know God's voice and obey it rather than having a plan or doing what we think is best. I was attempting to show just how careful we should be to ensure we aren't deceived. God has told people to do some dramatically strange stuff in the past. The last thing we want to do it to start off improperly interpreting scripture. We should be completely open and ready to anything God tells us to do.

It's not our show--it's His. That's all I intended to point out. No-- "righteous indignation" is not ok.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

I was not endorsing anger as a policy--I was intending to show the context of Pro 15:1. No matter the outcome, we must fully know God's voice and obey it rather than having a plan or doing what we think is best. I was attempting to show just how careful we should be to ensure we aren't deceived. God has told people to do some dramatically strange stuff in the past. The last thing we want to do it to start off improperly interpreting scripture. We should be completely open and ready to anything God tells us to do.

It's not our show--it's His. That's all I intended to point out. No-- "righteous indignation" is not ok.

A little of 2 and 3....

http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=17949143&postcount=1

 

[victoryword]

Actually Randy Clark has not been in the Vineyard since September 2001, when he resigned claiming his Arminian leanings was alienating him from other Vineyard pastors. I do not understand that. I am theologically Arminian, as are other Vineyard pastors I know, and we feel no such alienation from our more Calvinist brothers. I will take his word for it, though, although I suspect there is more to the story than has been told.

~Jim

That is indeed interesting. But I understand that he still pretty much hangs on to his Vineyard roots.

As far as the Arminian/Calvinist things goes: I found that the only way I can get along with a Calvinist is if we do NOT discuss theology. I can live with that but unfortunately, most Calvinists I've met seem to live for discussing theology - but that's for another thread entirely.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

That is indeed interesting. But I understand that he still pretty much hangs on to his Vineyard roots.

As far as the Arminian/Calvinist things goes: I found that the only way I can get along with a Calvinist is if we do NOT discuss theology. I can live with that but unfortunately, most Calvinists I've met seem to live for discussing theology - but that's for another thread entirely.

I agree...
It seems they have found a little Jedi mind trick which only leads to a comfortable dead end that they can hide in.
It is a religious nook that leads to nowhere.

 

[victoryword]

I agree...
It seems they have found a little Jedi mind trick which only leads to a comfortable dead end that they can hide in.
It is a religious nook that leads to nowhere.

Hahahahahahahahahahahaha!

But you know, if comparing science fiction movies to theology, I would venture that the MATRIX series seems to be the quintessential Calvinist/Arminian debate. Neo and the rest of the gang were always attempting to figure out what has been the result of "choice" and what was the result of Matrix programming (what must come to pass). That seemed to be what the biggest fuss and fight was all about in all three movies.

P.S. It would be nice if I could get a program uploaded in me that would automatically make me know kung fu

 

[Andyman_1970]

As far as the Arminian/Calvinist things goes: I found that the only way I can get along with a Calvinist is if we do NOT discuss theology. I can live with that but unfortunately, most Calvinists I've met seem to live for discussing theology - but that's for another thread entirely.

I'm neither Arminian or Calvinist, but I've found the best way to get along with most other Christians is not to discuss specific theology.

 

[FrankFaith]

I'm neither Arminian or Calvinist, but I've found the best way to get along with most other Christians is not to discuss specific theology.

...or religion.



Politics is a given.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

You guys are right....
Did you see the Panther/Steeler game last night!!!

 

[heron]

Jesus' righteous anger was directed toward shepherds of God's people who distorted the truth for their own convenience. Swaggart's indignation was directed outside the church, those not purporting to represent God. When God asked communities to humble themselves and pray, He was often asking His people to repent.

I think that God's sense of justice should rise up in every person, whether they have earned a certain level of respect or not. Usually when people resent the Church, they have a valid and specific reason for blame that stood out amidst the good the church offered. God isn't out to destroy people, but to get them to realize the ways they hurt others.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

It has occurred to me in the last week that the only time people are getting along with each other are in the threads where nothing of value is discussed...
i.e.
"Superduper who-per?"
"Make a sentence with the letters of your last name"