What is Charismatic Neo-Gnosticism and Why Should it Be Resisted?

[FrankFaith]

Misunderstandings are in the DNA of this forum, I think. Sorry for not always making myself clear. I would, like to understand your point if you would just speak real slow (I am a pineywoods East Texas who don’t always understand high-falutin’ English ).

~Jim

You're right! I am now faced with a misunderstanding about whether you understand my point or not! Do you--or do I need to continue to elaborate in a really slow, low-falutin' manner?

 

[JimB]

While I appreciate the comments Jim, I am at a loss as to why you would find the phrase "revelation knowledge" to be unscriptural when I quoted this passage in my post that speaks of just that:

That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him: The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints. (Eph. 1)


Nonetheless, if you still do not believe that the above passage is enough to support the use of such a phrase then may I remind you that such words as "Trinity," "Sunday School," and numerous other phrases used among Christians have even less support in Scripture than the phrase "revelation knowledge."


​

Furthermore, the "baggage" came from the critics of the faith movement. It is not the fault of the faith teachers that a simple phrase was TWISTED and made to sound esoteric and gnostic by the critics of the faith movement. Should everyone change their lingo every time someone expresses a distaste for it?

The scripture, unless I read it wrong, says “revelation" AND "knowledge”, not “revelation knowledge”, VW. (Oops, wait, you are right it does say "revelation in the knowledge" but ...) Even, with your interpretation, the phrase “revelation knowledge” is a WOF buzzword that does not have the same happy connotations outside WOF ranks as it does to WOF’ers. It’s insider jargon. I’m just saying, if you want your message to be more readily received by those outside your ranks, drop the phrase.

~Jim

 

[FrankFaith]

Furthermore, the "baggage" came from the critics of the faith movement. It is not the fault of the faith teachers that a simple phrase was TWISTED and made to sound esoteric and gnostic by the critics of the faith movement. Should everyone change their lingo every time someone expresses a distaste for it?

Oh my goodness, brother--you are right on the mark here. It sure wasn't the WoFers who gave/made WoF a bad name, was it?! *WoF leaders may have spoken--AND been taken--out of context here and there, but that just makes them human beings like ministers of other denominations, subject to making mistakes. It has been the finger pointers, critics, and those who have actually MADE the term "WoF" into something some folks (who have heard this trashing) now purposely avoid. Because of this purposeful trashing of WoF, many people have missed--and continue to miss much great . . . er . . . "revelation knowledge"!

 

[JimB]

Oh my goodness, brother--you are right on the mark here. It sure wasn't the WoFers who gave/made WoF a bad name, was it?! *WoF leaders may have spoken--AND been taken--out of context here and there, but that just makes them human beings like ministers of other denominations, subject to making mistakes. It has been the finger pointers, critics, and those who have actually MADE the term "WoF" into something some folks (who have heard this trashing) now purposely avoid. Because of this purposeful trashing of WoF, many people have missed--and continue to miss much great . . . er . . . "revelation knowledge"!

The “critics of the faith movement”, I feel, are not so opposed to your views of faith (I do not have a major problem here) as they are to the general condescending attitude, sarcastic slogans, and elevated opinions of your doctrine that EWOF’ers constantly aim at those who disagree with them (not to mention the hostility that comes from your side). Some of the nastiest posts in CF are from the EWOF side of the table and I have yet to hear an WOF sympathizer call for more moderate tones from their side (and I DO have a major problem here).
If you are going to be heard, you are going to have to come down off your lofty pedestals and talk English to us poor dense ignoramuses down here in the real world. Just drop the Kenyon/Hagin/Copeland jargon. You might actually find an audience if you do.

~Jim

 

[SavedByGrace3]

I suppose WoF and those with WoF leanings could just not respond to the endless stream of threads started by bashers... and basically give them nothing to talk about.
That might be a good policy to follow.

The “critics of the faith movement”, I feel, are not so opposed to your views of faith (I do not have a major problem here) as they are to the general condescending attitude, sarcastic slogans, and elevated opinions of your doctrine that EWOF’er toward those who disagree with them that EWOF’ers (not to mention your hostility. Some of the nastiest posts in CF are from the EWOF side of the table and I have yet to hear a sympathizer call for more moderate tones from their side (I DO have a major problem here). If you are going to be heard, you are going to have to come down off your lofty pedestals and talk English to us poor stupid peons. Just drop the Kenyon/Hagin/Copeland jargon. You might actually find an audience if you do.

~Jim

 

[JimB]

I suppose WoF and those with WoF leanings could just not respond to the endless stream of threads started by bashers... and basically give them nothing to talk about.
That might be a good policy to follow.

Disagreeing with WOF is not “bashing”, Dids. It is simply disagreeing. Don’t we have the right?

~Jim

 

[Christina M]

From here, Christina, ProAm is no harder on WOF’ers than you are on non-WOF’ers. You seldom have anything good to say about them, either. What’s the difference?

~Jim

Big diff, Jim. I don't go around finding heresy-hunter websites and post them verbatim on this site to stir up trouble.

This is all ProAmerican does.

 

[FrankFaith]

Disagreeing with WOF is not “bashing”, Dids. It is simply disagreeing. Don’t we have the right?

~Jim

The problem is that the anti-WoF crowd has got a bag full of terms that they use for slamming WoFers. Where is the WoFer's bag of anti- anti-WoFer terms? The only one I've heard is "If'er". Other than that, when you look at the situation in this manner, WoFers sure appear to be the bashees.

 

[JimB]

Big diff, Jim. I don't go around finding heresy-hunter websites and post them verbatim on this site to stir up trouble.

This is all ProAmerican does.

I do not necessarily agree with ProAm posting those so-called “heresy hunter” websites. (BTW, the term “heresy hunter” is just a derogatory WOF slogan to brand those who openly disagree with them.) Still, it would be in the interest of my WOF friends if they did not simply dismiss their critics with a demeaning slogan and admit that they may have some real zits in their doctrine. Otherwise, you will always be defending some of your more indefensible positions. Merely labeling your opponents never wins you anything.

We never see our own zits, Frank, me included, until we are willing to look in the mirror. And sometimes it is the people we don't like that makes us to it. Sometimes it is the wounds of a faithful friends who will tell us we, um, er, have zits. I get told that a lot here.

~Jim

 

[Christina M]

We never see our own zits, Frank, me included, until we are willing to look in the mirror. ~Jim

I don't have ZITS..... I used Merle Norman products...

 

[JimB]

I don't have ZITS..... I used Merle Norman products...

Guess what, I used to own a Merle Norman store and will agree with you. I would use the products myself, but I, um, am a guy. So, I have plenty of zits (of all kinds).

~Jim

 

[Christina M]

Guess what, I used to own a Merle Norman store ~Jim

Well....blow me down! REALLY??? WOW. Did you run it, Jim?

I've been a faithful customer since 1985....... awesome stuff!

 

[Andry]

Well....blow me down! REALLY??? WOW. Did you run it, Jim?

I've been a faithful customer since 1985....... awesome stuff!

Does it help? I use Nivea for Men, but still get the occasional 'stress-related' zits. Usually before a big meeting or interview.

 

[victoryword]

The scripture, unless I read it wrong, says “revelation" AND "knowledge”, not “revelation knowledge”, VW. (Oops, wait, you are right it does say "revelation in the knowledge" but ...) Even, with your interpretation, the phrase “revelation knowledge” is a WOF buzzword that does not have the same happy connotations outside WOF ranks as it does to WOF’ers. It’s insider jargon. I’m just saying, if you want your message to be more readily received by those outside your ranks, drop the phrase.

~Jim

Jim

The so-called "WOF Ranks" was not created by those within the movement, just as I am sure that John Wimber did not intentionally start a "denomination" called Vineyard and perhaps he and Peter Wagner did not intend to start an insider movement when they coined the phrase "Third Wave." Since (unlike many here) I try to see the positive, I realize that Wagner and Wimber were simply referencing a different move of God distinct from the earlier Pentecostal and Charismatic movements while not necessarily attempting to create their own little "rank and file."

The Faith Movement was simpy attempting to bring the BODY OF MESSIAH (not just a certain group of people within the body) back to a place where people took God's Word seriously and literally. They wanted to show that prayer actually worked and that God really does keep His promises. A lot of the teaching was a reaction to "traditional Christianity " (primarily Calvinism) and the prevailing liberalism (teaching that the Bible is not inspired) as well as cessationism. A lot of it was influenced by the Holiness, Faith-Cure and Keswick-Higher-Life movement. Certain phrases and terms were used to describe certain aspects of God's Word and work.

For example, you do not find the phrase "divine healing" in Scripture. The phrase was used to distinguish between healing that comes from God and the "mind healing" sciences taught by Mary Bakker Eddy, et. al as well the so-called "faith healing" that was similar to Christian Science.

Revelation Knowledge was a phrase used to help people understand that an intellectual knowledge of God's Word is not nearly enough to walk in pure faith in Him. One must have God REVEAL His Word to them. True faith in God is not by the intellect but by an impartation of truth into one's heart by the Holy Spirit. This is what the attempt was in using the phrase "revelation knowledge." There was never any intent whatsoever for faith teachers to have a certain buzz word that only an elite group of Christians would recognize. If you ever read their books rather than reading their critics, you would that. Oswald Chambers (My Utmost for His Highest) often used similar phrases.

Now, after this, if you want to continue to accuse the WoF adherents of elitism and having our own little club code words then my part of this conversation is over. But understand that the same accusations can be launched at the Vineyard and every other Christian group or movement. But ACCUSATIONS are not necessarily TRUTH-SATIONS.

 

[JimB]

Well....blow me down! REALLY??? WOW. Did you run it, Jim?

I've been a faithful customer since 1985....... awesome stuff!

Me run it … no way!! My ex-wife ran it. In fact, she still does – it’s hers now. But I still believe in the product.

~Jim

*****

Usually before a big meeting or interview.

Bummer!!


~Jim

 

[victoryword]

Oh my goodness, brother--you are right on the mark here. It sure wasn't the WoFers who gave/made WoF a bad name, was it?! *WoF leaders may have spoken--AND been taken--out of context here and there, but that just makes them human beings like ministers of other denominations, subject to making mistakes. It has been the finger pointers, critics, and those who have actually MADE the term "WoF" into something some folks (who have heard this trashing) now purposely avoid. Because of this purposeful trashing of WoF, many people have missed--and continue to miss much great . . . er . . . "revelation knowledge"!

Frank Faith (I like that name)

It is sad that so many critics have misrepresented not only the teachings of the faith proponents, but also their INTENTIONS. And even when such is revealed to them and those who suck-in the WoF critic's garbage, they seem to have no problems with their conscience but continue to make excuses to justify their worthless crusades.

Perhaps we should all stop using certain words and phrases until we can find them written in Scripture verbatim. For example, Jim is part of a denomination that is associated with a movement called the "THird Wave." Not a phrase found in Scripture mind you. Jim Wimber, the founder of his demoination coined an excellent phrase called "Power Evangelism." I like the phrase but perhaps I should not use it anymore because it is not found in Scripture. Also, Third Wavers have been infamous for their SLSW (Strategic Level Spiritual Warfare). Think I should call Jim's leaders to task as he continually rails against the phrase "revelation knowledge?"

I'll stop using a "Baptismal Pool" since such is not found in Scripture. Let's stop having "altar calls" and let's stop using such phrases as "Evangelistic Outreach" and other unscriptural phrases. Waddya say Jim?

 

[JimB]

Jim

The so-called "WOF Ranks" was not created by those within the movement, just as I am sure that John Wimber did not intentionally start a "denomination" called Vineyard and perhaps he and Peter Wagner did not intend to start an insider movement when they coined the phrase "Third Wave." Since (unlike many here) I try to see the positive, I realize that Wagner and Wimber were simply referencing a different move of God distinct from the earlier Pentecostal and Charismatic movements while not necessarily attempting to create their own little "rank and file."

The Faith Movement was simpy attempting to bring the BODY OF MESSIAH (not just a certain group of people within the body) back to a place where people took God's Word seriously and literally. They wanted to show that prayer actually worked and that God really does keep His promises. A lot of the teaching was a reaction to "traditional Christianity " (primarily Calvinism) and the prevailing liberalism (teaching that the Bible is not inspired) as well as cessationism. A lot of it was influenced by the Holiness, Faith-Cure and Keswick-Higher-Life movement. Certain phrases and terms were used to describe certain aspects of God's Word and work.

For example, you do not find the phrase "divine healing" in Scripture. The phrase was used to distinguish between healing that comes from God and the "mind healing" sciences taught by Mary Bakker Eddy, et. al as well the so-called "faith healing" that was similar to Christian Science.

Revelation Knowledge was a phrase used to help people understand that an intellectual knowledge of God's Word is not nearly enough to walk in pure faith in Him. One must have God REVEAL His Word to them. True faith in God is not by the intellect but by an impartation of truth into one's heart by the Holy Spirit. This is what the attempt was in using the phrase "revelation knowledge." There was never any intent whatsoever for faith teachers to have a certain buzz word that only an elite group of Christians would recognize. If you ever read their books rather than reading their critics, you would that. Oswald Chambers (My Utmost for His Highest) often used similar phrases.

Now, after this, if you want to continue to accuse the WoF adherents of elitism and having our own little club code words then my part of this conversation is over. But understand that the same accusations can be launched at the Vineyard and every other Christian group or movement. But ACCUSATIONS are not necessarily TRUTH-SATIONS.

VW,

Please understand, I love my balanced WOF friends and they have taught me a lot. It is, as it is in the Vineyard and every other group, the extremists that blacken the movement’s eye and make the most noise and, unfortuately, get the most attention. The extremists usually identify us.

Sometimes I get the old, “So, you’re Vineyard. You into that Toronto stuff?” or “So, You’re Vineyard. You into that Kansas City stuff?” Neither Toronto or Kansas City, though they are part of our history, identify the Vineyard of 2005. If it did, I wouldn’t be Vineyard at all. Sometimes even the good terms we invent to define a doctrine get stained by those who misuse and mis-define them. When that happens, it may become necessary to change our terms.

I understand what you are saying and see your point.

~Jim

 

[FrankFaith]

We never see our own zits, Frank, me included, until we are willing to look in the mirror. And sometimes it is the people we don't like that makes us to it. Sometimes it is the wounds of a faithful friends who will tell us we, um, er, have zits. I get told that a lot here.

~Jim

Well, He does call us His "children" . . . and kids gots zits.

I am glad to know that we are both painfully aware that we float (by the Grace of God--and do not sink instead) in the same boat of hypocrisy.

May God bless you, brother.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Disagreeing with WOF is not “bashing”, Dids. It is simply disagreeing. Don’t we have the right?

~Jim

Of course you do.
When you have something to say, I usually listen and at least consider what you are saying. Others who just copy and paste text from a website are just being bullies. I really do not care what they have to say because they have no concern for me.... that is not their motivation. They are just control freaks who have shown me no reason why I should care what they have to say. That is what makes a basher a basher.

But I am glad to hear your opinions... even if we disagree on some things.

 

[JimB]

Of course you do.
When you have something to say, I usually listen and at least consider what you are saying. Others who just copy and paste text from a website are just being bullies. I really do not care what they have to say because they have no concern for me.... that is not their motivation. They are just control freaks who have shown me no reason why I should care what they have to say. That is what makes a basher a basher.

But I am glad to hear your opinions... even if we disagree on some things.

Oh man, Dids, you are the master of diplomacy. Thanks.

~Jim