What is a pro-choice Christian?

[redleghunter]

I remember a Ken Follett book which began when a woman died in childbirth. Her husband buried the living baby with her because he had no way to feed him. A monk was watching and rescued the baby as soon as the man left, feeding him in the monastery...but I still wonder whether people really did that in Christian Europe in the 12th century???

He obviously had a means to feed the child. The church.

He could have knocked on the monastery door.

 

[redleghunter]

Our only interest is in safe passage from egg to birth. After that
we don't give a rip what happens.

That's not true. I've shown this in the past which is just a small sampling of ministries I know of and some found on a simple internet search:

Christian Pregnancy Services and After Care:

Just a few examples here:

https://cmda.org/resources/publication/crisis-pregnancy-centers
Pregnancy Centers in PA
Listing Of Crisis Pregnancy Centers In Illinois
Christian Life Resources
Special Delivery | Overlake Christian Church
Top 10 Non Profit Organizations that help Mothers
Creating a Cradle Care Ministry for Expectant & New Parents

These are a few examples of Christian ministries which span all 50 states.

Sanctuary of Hope:

https://www.jhm.org/SOHCares
The above is a grand scale example of after and future care. Others include Catholic charities and Samaritans Purse.

Becoming Adoptive Parents - FAQs
Counseling
Help Protect Vulnerable Women

My local church teams up with several other churches to provide pregnancy crisis support, education for pregnant women and support for young families in need of financial assistance.

Moral of the story for folks who don't know about this? Get your church involved or get back to church and get involved.

 

[redleghunter]

The morality of abortion has nothing to do with women's rights. The morality of abortion is entirely dependent upon the nature of the human life inside the womb.

Indeed.

 

[redleghunter]

So a Christian can support Planned Parenthood since they do other stuff besides Abortions.

Gotcha.

Submit to your own teachings Catholic friend:

Abortion

2270 Human life must be respected and protected absolutely from the moment of conception. From the first moment of his existence, a human being must be recognized as having the rights of a person - among which is the inviolable right of every innocent being to life.72



Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you.73
My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret, intricately wrought in the depths of the earth.74

2271 Since the first century the Church has affirmed the moral evil of every procured abortion. This teaching has not changed and remains unchangeable. Direct abortion, that is to say, abortion willed either as an end or a means, is gravely contrary to the moral law:



You shall not kill the embryo by abortion and shall not cause the newborn to perish.75
God, the Lord of life, has entrusted to men the noble mission of safeguarding life, and men must carry it out in a manner worthy of themselves. Life must be protected with the utmost care from the moment of conception: abortion and infanticide are abominable crimes.76

2272 Formal cooperation in an abortion constitutes a grave offense. The Church attaches the canonical penalty of excommunication to this crime against human life. "A person who procures a completed abortion incurs excommunication latae sententiae,"77 "by the very commission of the offense,"78 and subject to the conditions provided by Canon Law.79 The Church does not thereby intend to restrict the scope of mercy. Rather, she makes clear the gravity of the crime committed, the irreparable harm done to the innocent who is put to death, as well as to the parents and the whole of society.

2273 The inalienable right to life of every innocent human individual is a constitutive element of a civil society and its legislation:

"The inalienable rights of the person must be recognized and respected by civil society and the political authority. These human rights depend neither on single individuals nor on parents; nor do they represent a concession made by society and the state; they belong to human nature and are inherent in the person by virtue of the creative act from which the person took his origin. Among such fundamental rights one should mention in this regard every human being's right to life and physical integrity from the moment of conception until death."80

"The moment a positive law deprives a category of human beings of the protection which civil legislation ought to accord them, the state is denying the equality of all before the law. When the state does not place its power at the service of the rights of each citizen, and in particular of the more vulnerable, the very foundations of a state based on law are undermined. . . . As a consequence of the respect and protection which must be ensured for the unborn child from the moment of conception, the law must provide appropriate penal sanctions for every deliberate violation of the child's rights."81

2274 Since it must be treated from conception as a person, the embryo must be defended in its integrity, cared for, and healed, as far as possible, like any other human being.

Prenatal diagnosis is morally licit, "if it respects the life and integrity of the embryo and the human fetus and is directed toward its safe guarding or healing as an individual. . . . It is gravely opposed to the moral law when this is done with the thought of possibly inducing an abortion, depending upon the results: a diagnosis must not be the equivalent of a death sentence."82

2275 "One must hold as licit procedures carried out on the human embryo which respect the life and integrity of the embryo and do not involve disproportionate risks for it, but are directed toward its healing the improvement of its condition of health, or its individual survival."83

"It is immoral to produce human embryos intended for exploitation as disposable biological material."84

"Certain attempts to influence chromosomic or genetic inheritance are not therapeutic but are aimed at producing human beings selected according to sex or other predetermined qualities. Such manipulations are contrary to the personal dignity of the human being and his integrity and identity"85 which are unique and unrepeatable.

 

[redleghunter]

How about Miscarriage?
Punishable offense?

Should it be illegal for Pregnant women to go outside if its snowing or Icy, since that would irresponsibly put the baby at risk of death if she slipped and fell?

Should probably make it illegal for her to ride in or drive a car too, since the preborn baby can not be sufficiently restrained to prevent injury/death in case of an automobile accident?

Nanny state lovers Unite!

Heh nice examples. Most women would not go out on icy roads. That's what men folk are for.

 

[redleghunter]

You are correct there ,as the overwhelming incidents of violence are done by men . Men who often espouse to be christian ,but in fact rape and pressurise women to have sex . Less now ,but rape has become reportable only recently as a crime , and even then most women do not report because the treatment they recieve , can be worse than the violation.

So, when hypocritical christians start to be truly christian ,then the world will change .
The idea that goes round comes round ,and in the past women had no recourse to justice at all ,so God provides that while we are still living .The false idea that justice comes after death always ,is just that .A false idea.
And when you are talking of 'murder ' , genocide , your example is wrong ,as you cannot seperate a baby from the mother until it is born . Perhaps you would like to kill the mother instead ,as the RCC did in the past to 'save' the baby .

Have anything to back that up with?

 

[Zoii]

I think the OP was making a stark comparison of "choice."

I took it as showing a literary extreme.

So his comments were not really about taxes but showing how people want government to tell people what to do with their own money; yet let someone decide to terminate the life of a defenseless human being in the womb.

thats a tenuous example at best

 

[redleghunter]

The big question I always hear from pro-choicers is this: "If evangelical Christians and Catholics want to end abortion, WHY are they against birth control? Why are they against the Affordable Care Act? Why are they against insurers covering birth control?"

What is the Catholic answer to your question. Do you support your own church's teachings?

Evangelicals for their part are having large families. My small church had to expand the nursery and Sunday school buildings. Families in my small church now fill entire pews.

American evangelicals with large families

 

[redleghunter]

You know, there are SO many bases pro-lifers leave uncovered I prefer to do what's most needed.

I have made a number of donations as well as helping family members in Florida who lost fences and trees.

Thanks for letting us know what the left hand knows of the right hand.

Meaning Christ told us to give and then not speak of it.

Kind of a low blow there to @SPF as you have no idea of his giving heart. He probably won't answer this as we are to give but not be like the Pharisees and do it in boast.

 

[Fantine]

I was asked a question by SPF about whether I had taken in pregnant women in Houston.

I live nowhere near Houston or Florida so I did what most people at remote distances did. I donated to charities and directly to relatives.

Since we have a new Pope who has tried to strike a balance and who values kindness and mercy more than "shoulding" on others, I don't feel out of sync. The USCCB does not tell people to vote for certain candidates.

I never had an abortion, even when I got pregnant at 39 and my husband's company was sold the day of my first prenatal visit. I have been married to one man for 47 years. And I take my vote very seriously as a sacred trust. Any more questions?

 

[FireDragon76]

The premeditated termination of defenseless human life is not murder?

The purpose of abortion is to end pregnancy. The death of the embryo or foetus is only a consequence of that.

 

[FireDragon76]

And I wonder if you could even make the case for even having personal "rights" in the first place from Scripture.

In civilized nations, the rights of human beings are acknowledge as self-evident.

Because what I see when I read Scripture are verses saying things like you were bought with a price, therefore honor Christ with your bodies, and that Biblical worship is offering our bodies as a living sacrifice. I don't even know how you could put forth an argument for "personal rights" from Scripture.

That's confusing Law and Gospel, when applied to how we should govern a pluralistic society.

 

[SPF]

In civilized nations, the rights of human beings are acknowledge as self-evident.

You're right. In America we say that the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness is self evident, right?

The problem with abortion is that you're attempting to say that a woman's pursuit of happiness trumps another person's right to life. I can't think of any other example in which anyone would argue that a person's pursuit of happiness or liberty supersede another person's right to life, can you?

Abortion is not a woman's rights issue, it is a right to life issue. All of our rights can be temporarily or permanently suspended. The question we have to ask is - "Is pregnancy one of those times when the pursuit of happiness is put on hold when women want to abort for convenience sake."

And the answer to that question rests 100% in our understanding of the nature of the life inside the womb. Does the unborn child possess the same inherent moral worth and value as you or I? If the answer is yes, then abortion is immoral.

 

[SkyWriting]

That's not true. I've shown this in the past which is just a small sampling of ministries I know of and some found on a simple internet search:

Christian Pregnancy Services and After Care:

Just a few examples here:

https://cmda.org/resources/publication/crisis-pregnancy-centers
Pregnancy Centers in PA
Listing Of Crisis Pregnancy Centers In Illinois
Christian Life Resources
Special Delivery | Overlake Christian Church
Top 10 Non Profit Organizations that help Mothers
Creating a Cradle Care Ministry for Expectant & New Parents

These are a few examples of Christian ministries which span all 50 states.

Sanctuary of Hope:

https://www.jhm.org/SOHCares
The above is a grand scale example of after and future care. Others include Catholic charities and Samaritans Purse.

Becoming Adoptive Parents - FAQs
Counseling
Help Protect Vulnerable Women

My local church teams up with several other churches to provide pregnancy crisis support, education for pregnant women and support for young families in need of financial assistance.

Moral of the story for folks who don't know about this? Get your church involved or get back to church and get involved.

My apologies. I did not mean to undermine the efforts
of fringe groups that are actually concerned. I was
describing the core Pro-Life groups that don't give
a hoot past birth.

ProLife.com
National Right to Life
Pro-Life Action League
Pro-Life Action Ministries

 

[Fantine]

v Does the unborn child possess the same inherent moral worth and value as you or I? If the answer is yes, then abortion is immoral.

When pro lifers show equal concern for the monumental and multiple immoralities their candidates promote they will at last get the respect they claim to deserve.

 

[SPF]

My apologies. I did not mean to undermine the efforts
of fringe groups that are actually concerned. I was
describing the core Pro-Life groups that don't give
a hoot past birth.

ProLife.com
National Right to Life
Pro-Life Action League
Pro-Life Action Ministries

SkyWriting, your response here is nothing short of incredibly uncharitable and manipulative. Why are ministries that support women and children "fringe"? and why are groups that focus on children only "core"? And why would groups that only focus on saving the lives of unborn children be bad in the first place? We need BOTH.

If the unborn child possesses the same inherent moral worth and value as your or I, then any ministry that exists whose aim is to protect the life of that unborn child should be praised.

Likewise, ministries that exist which aim to help those in need, whether it's single pregnant women, homeless, orphans, widows, poor, etc... those ministries should also be praised.

Your manipulative, uncharitable, and dismissive terminology is utterly unhelpful.

 

[SPF]

I said: Does the unborn child possess the same inherent moral worth and value as you or I? If the answer is yes, then abortion is immoral.

Fantime responds with: When pro lifers show equal concern for the monumental and multiple immoralities their candidates promote they will at last get the respect they claim to deserve.

I'm sort of scratching my head here trying to figure out how in the world that response is in any way related to what I said. Can someone show me where I talked about politics in anything I wrote? Can someone show me where I said anything about getting respect? Can anyone show me where I said anything about deserving anything?

I'm not a Catholic, but as a Christian, I actually agree with the Catholic position that all humans are created in the image of God and from their conception possess the Imago Dei. We all possess inherent and innate moral worth and value that is intrinsic. Therefore, killing an innocent child, whether they are 3 weeks old in the womb, 6 months old in the womb, or 2 days old outside the womb - all instances of killing that child would be morally wrong.

 

[parousia70]

Here we go again...........

I'll take that as a yes.

 

[MoonlessNight]

The purpose of abortion is to end pregnancy. The death of the embryo or foetus is only a consequence of that.

I wonder how much sympathy we'd have towards a man who beat his son to death and gave the defense: "The purpose of my actions was to get him to shut up. The fact that he died was only a consequence of my actions, but not the primary purpose."

 

[parousia70]

The oriental mind and society has no value for life.

Easily one of the most Racist comments I've seen on CF.