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What is a person

RobertByers

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They might have that right, but that right can't be used to violate the woman's right to bodily integrity.



It's not relevent whether a fetus is a "person" or not. No born person has any right to any other person's blood or organs, and neither does a fetus, without the woman's consent.

You misunderstand rights, great rights, priority rights. This is a bad stream of arguement for abortion.

The great right to life is inalienable. So a person can not be killed by state/private indivudual unless due process of the state.
To take a human beings life is so serious that you really need a serious justification. Punishment/self-defence. very good reasons for doing the great deed.

this right trumps any bodiliy right of a pregnant woman. It fact the child has the bodily right too (whatever that is).

You just can't kill someone and destroy a natural right by the minor and unique situation of one person being within another.
Your missing the great beauty of a natural right to continued existence.
Its perfect in its protection from any other claim that would kill it.
Only the special arrangements of mans government can organize the destuction of man. Otherwise its murder.
 
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cantata

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You misunderstand rights, great rights, priority rights. This is a bad stream of arguement for abortion.

The great right to life is inalienable. So a person can not be killed by state/private indivudual unless due process of the state.
To take a human beings life is so serious that you really need a serious justification. Punishment/self-defence. very good reasons for doing the great deed.

this right trumps any bodiliy right of a pregnant woman. It fact the child has the bodily right too (whatever that is).

You just can't kill someone and destroy a natural right by the minor and unique situation of one person being within another.
Your missing the great beauty of a natural right to continued existence.
Its perfect in its protection from any other claim that would kill it.
Only the special arrangements of mans government can organize the destuction of man. Otherwise its murder.

Why do people have natural rights? Where do they come from?
 
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InigoMontoja

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Come ONNNN
A person means a person as opposed to not a person.
A child in the womb is a person like the people who leave the womb but know it was their origin.
Trying to deny personhood to a human being is just trying to get around the well estanlished rights and beliefs that all people should not be denued their continued exsistence except by the greatest need to destroy them.
God and the founders of america meant that if your a people then your a person before the great dictates of natural rights.

By the way I have often argued that the Roe decision was flawed and illegal because it did state thate the constitution dictated that the people could not decide the fetus was a human being with equal rights.
Many pro-lifer thinkers say the Roe decision was wrong because it found a right to abortion by way of privacy.
Actually the decision should be attacked on the denial of the right of the people to vote in the unborn child is a human being. This is the great, even innocent , error.

QFT DANCE!! :clap:
 
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InigoMontoja

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Human ≠ person.

Would a horse with the intelligence, sentiments, and ability to communicate of the average human being be a person? I say yes, absolutely. Personhood, if this vague idea is to be defined at all, is defined in terms of certain abilities, not in terms of species. First trimester foetuses are not persons.

And this is why we have words in the English language like "insane" and "evil".

Sometimes I think certain posts have psionic vampire abilities, sucking the IQ right out of me. They are like intellectual black holes.
 
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stan1980

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And this is why we have words in the English language like "insane" and "evil".

Sometimes I think certain posts have psionic vampire abilities, sucking the IQ right out of me. They are like intellectual black holes.

She was making a point, which was clearly lost on you.

For what it's worth, I've felt the same about your posts the last couple of days, and considering you've made comparatively few posts since you've been here, it is quite some achievement.
 
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cantata

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And this is why we have words in the English language like "insane" and "evil".

Sometimes I think certain posts have psionic vampire abilities, sucking the IQ right out of me. They are like intellectual black holes.

I welcome your responses, but could you try to be slightly more constructive?
 
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InigoMontoja

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She was making a point, which was clearly lost on you.

The only points in her post were the missing academic achievement points, as in the English language "person" and "human" are synonymous --a thing quickly revealed by checking the dictionary.
Main Entry:per·son

Pronunciation: \ˈpər-sən\

Function:noun

Date:13th century

1: human, individual —sometimes used in combination especially by those who prefer to avoid man in compounds applicable to both sexes

As we see, "human" and "person" are synonymous. She might as well be saying "red is not a color" or "the house sounds blue".


For what it's worth, I've felt the same about your posts the last couple of days, and considering you've made comparatively few posts since you've been here, it is quite some achievement.
Well, it's not worth much, as I do not care much about your feelings. I place value on reasoning by logic and thought, not emotional reactions.
 
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stan1980

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Well, it's not worth much, as I do not care much about your feelings. I place value on reasoning by logic and thought, not emotional reactions.

Haha, I took the liberty of searching through posts you've authored (I'm a sad individual!) and I came to the conclusion from your posts in January that you do believe in God. So how did "logic" help you arrive at this conclusion? This I have to hear! In fact there isn't much evidence of logic from anything you've posted.
 
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InigoMontoja

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Haha, I took the liberty of searching through posts you've authored (I'm a sad individual!) and I came to the conclusion from your posts in January that you do believe in God. So how did "logic" help you arrive at this conclusion? This I have to hear! In fact there isn't much evidence of logic from anything you've posted.
Since this is a Red Herring(intentionally or not), I'll just say that I have enough sanity to realize the Universe can't create itself.
 
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cantata

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The only points in her post were the missing academic achievement points, as in the English language "person" and "human" are synonymous --a thing quickly revealed by checking the dictionary.

<snip>

As we see, "human" and "person" are synonymous. She might as well be saying "red is not a color" or "the house sounds blue".

NB: All my definitions here are coming from the Shorter OED.

What do I mean when I say "person"? Well, first of all, let's notice that the definition of "person" takes up a whole column of a page of my dictionary. That's approximately eight column inches. "Human" only had about one and a half column inches of definition. So it's clear that "person" is a far more complex term than "human", and it's also clear that the words do not have identical meanings.

Now, under "person", but conspicuously not under "human", are the following:

"4. The actual self or being of an individual." This is what I'm thinking of when I say that to be human is not necessarily to be a person, and vice versa. When people have arguments about whether or not a foetus is a person, they are usually not debating whether or not it is human. They are interested in whether or not it is a self, an I. Do you need to be human to be a self? I don't think so. I think if a pig, or an alien, had all the abilities of an average human adult to communicate, reason, feel emotions, and so on, you would be right to call it a person. Do you disagree? And are you necessarily a self by virtue of being a human? I'm not sure. I don't think a human corpse is a person, even though it is undeniably (a) human. I don't think a brain-dead human, in fact, is correctly called a person either. So it seems as if it's possible to be human without being a person, also.

"5. An individual or group of individuals as a corporation regarded as having rights and duties recognised by the law." That's right: a corporation, though not human, is legally considered a person in most Western countries. So my dictionary is telling me directly here that not all persons are humans.

How is "human" defined then, in my dictionary? "of or belonging to the species Homo sapiens." Note the difference: it's a biological name for a particular creature, like "echidna" or "elephant shrew". Now, under "human", we find this definition also: "Of, pertaining to, or characteristic of humankind or people." (My italics.) The word "person" does not appear at all in my dictionary's definition of "human", and "people" appears only once in the context cited above. So the Shorter Oxford English Dictionary clearly disagrees with you that humans and people are necessarily the same thing, and it makes no claim that you are automatically a person if you are a human.

"Person" is a philosophical and sociological term. "Human" is a biological one. They have different meanings, and they are not synonymous. Therefore while you might want to make a case that in practice they mean the same thing, or perhaps that every human being is also a person, the answer is by no means as obvious as you would like to claim.
 
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InigoMontoja

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Right, so it must have been God? I have no problems with your faith, but lets not pretend logic got you there.
Well it was more along the lines of eighth grade science(EG "What caused the Big Bang? Can matter create itself?"). 'Creator' and 'God' are basically synonymous. So yes, it must have been God. I mean, it certainly is more logical than "The Universe created itself" --how can it create itself if it doesn't exists? or "The Universe came from NOWHERE" --yeah, right, or "The Universe is an illusion!" --then isn't the argument that it is an illusion an illusion in itself? This is really elementary stuff. So, yeah, God is the most logical cause.
 
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stan1980

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Well it was more along the lines of eighth grade science(EG "What caused the Big Bang? Can matter create itself?"). 'Creator' and 'God' are basically synonymous. So yes, it must have been God.

Okay, lets ask the question again. How do you arrive at the conclusion of a 'Christian' or 'biblical' God?
 
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cantata

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Spare me the equivocation fallacies, OK? It really is wearying.

Would you like to explain precisely how I am guilty of equivocating? I have offered you dictionary definitions of "person" and "human" which demonstrate that the argument about whether they can be taken to mean the same thing is not trivial.

Since equivocation refers to the ambiguous use of a word, particularly where it's used in one way in one part of an argument and in another way in another, I don't see how providing you with clear definitions can constitute an example of the fallacy of equivocation.
 
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InigoMontoja

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Okay, lets ask a different question.(ed: ;)) How do you arrive at the conclusion of a 'Christian' or 'biblical' God?
Well said! That is indeed a different question, and a different topic, as you originally asked not "How do you arrive at the conclusion of a 'Christian' or 'biblical' God?" But rather:
I came to the conclusion from your posts in January that you do believe in God. So how did "logic" help you arrive at this conclusion?


The trouble with using God to fill in the gaps, is you get the same problem that we had in the first place, so no, saying God made the universe isn't logical. Where did God come from?
Well, if we think about this critically there is no problem. In soccer there is a rule that says that a score is taken only if the ball passes within the boundary of the goal posts. It would then be illogical to tell a football player that he did not score a touch-down because he did not kick the ball through the goal posts. Why? Because football is outside the realm of soccer and is not bound to its rules. Likewise, the laws of causation are laws of the Universe. Meaning it is the nature of the Universe itself. That which sits outside the Universe is thus not bound by those laws. So the question "What caused God/Creator?" is a Non Sequitur, as we do not know that It needs or does not need a cause.
 
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cantata

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Well, if we think about this critically there is no problem. In soccer there is a rule that says that a score is taken only if the ball passes within the boundary of the goal posts. It would then be illogical to tell a football player that he did not score a touch-down because he did not kick the ball through the goal posts. Why? Because football is outside the realm of soccer and is not bound to its rules. Likewise, the laws of causation are laws of the Universe. Meaning it is the nature of the Universe itself. That which sits outside the Universe is thus not bound by those laws. So the question "What caused God/Creator?" is a Non Sequitur, as we do not know that It needs or does not need a cause.

We also don't have any evidence one way or another that the existence of matter needs or does not need a cause.

I've never seen any matter come into being, caused or otherwise. Have you?
 
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