What is a person

[cantata]

Cantata
My post to you answered everyrhing you repeated in question.
From God, regonized by man, and self evident from the great thinkers of individuals and the masses.

These are non-answers. They're not self-evident to me, so you need to explain them in more detail.

They ensure that all must be obediant to their legitamacy and otherwise any individual/society/politics has no reason to be obeyed if it tresspasses these great rights.

How do they ensure that?

You have still not described what they are like or what they actually do. What is the process by which they are bestowed on people? Are they like a sort of force field? Or do you just mean that God has them written down? Are they arbitrary rules?

Yes you do have great natural rights and so do i and so do children in the bodies of pregnant women.

How could you tell if I didn't have them?

 

[brinny]

Here's my take on it....i am a person. i was a person when i was a speck in my mother's womb, although i was more helpless then and had no voice and depended on the mercy of those more powerful than i to protect me and secure that no one killed me.

i love sharing my views...i've missed this place

group hug!

 

[WatersMoon110]

Here's my take on it....i am a person. i was a person when i was a speck in my mother's womb, although i was more helpless then and had no voice and depended on the mercy of those more powerful than i to protect me and secure that no one killed me.

What do you mean by a "person" though? Certainly, no one would dispute that you are currently a person. But, if I may ask, what do you have to support your claim that you were a "person" during your unborn development?

 

[brinny]

What do you mean by a "person" though? Certainly, no one would dispute that you are currently a person. But, if I may ask, what do you have to support your claim that you were a "person" during your unborn development?

that i'm here, just bigger.

 

[WatersMoon110]

that i'm here, just bigger.

That is indisputably true, you are both "here" and "bigger".

But, then, would unborn humans who are miscarried or aborted not be "people" since they aren't here?

Perhaps I am misunderstanding you. Are you claiming that all unborn humans are people, or that only you were a person during your unborn development?

 

[brinny]

That is indisputably true, you are both "here" and "bigger".

But, then, would unborn humans who are miscarried or aborted not be "people" since they aren't here?

Perhaps I am misunderstanding you. Are you claiming that all unborn humans are people, or that only you were a person during your unborn development?

I was using myself as an example. I believe that all babies, no matter how small, and nearly invisible to the eye, and miniscule, down to the first germination of a cell, are 'people', regardless of the stage they are presently in. The tiniest stages of course are the most vulnerable and helpless and need the protection of someone bigger and stronger.

I'll use myself as an example again. I can now look back and be thankful that someone bigger and stronger than I was allowed me to continue my journey of growth until i could speak up for and defend myself. If i would've had a voice or means when a miniscule speck of a person, i would've told you so, just as i am telling you now.

Does this help?

I am a person. Always have been. Always will be. (I could go on about my personhood throughout eternity, but I'll stop here)

 

[WatersMoon110]

I was using myself as an example. I believe that all babies, no matter how small, and nearly invisible to the eye, and miniscule, down to the first germination of a cell, are 'people', regardless of the stage they are presently in. The tiniest stages of course are the most vulnerable and helpless and need the protection of someone bigger and stronger.

I suppose you could look at things that way, though I don't. But are the two sex cells that formed that fertilized ovum also people? And, if not, why do they magically become a person at fertilization? What makes an unborn human, even at the zygote stage, a person?

I'll use myself as an example again. I can now look back and be thankful that someone bigger and stronger than I was allowed me to continue my journey of growth until i could speak up for and defend myself. If i would've had a voice or means when a miniscule speck of a person, i would've told you so, just as i am telling you now.

Does this help?

Yes! I understand what you were getting at now. Thanks for explaining.

I am a person. Always have been. Always will be. (I could go on about my personhood throughout eternity, but I'll stop here)

I'm not sure if I believe that a soul is a person. I think that a soul is more than what a person is, but also can be thought of as defining what a person is. If we are our souls (which I consider to be much the same as the "personality" of a person, that is what make a given person to be that person), then is a dead body still a person? Which also gives rise to the question, is an unborn human a person before the soul enters the body? And also, when does the soul enter the body of an unborn human?

 

[brinny]

I suppose you could look at things that way, though I don't. But are the two sex cells that formed that fertilized ovum also people? And, if not, why do they magically become a person at fertilization? What makes an unborn human, even at the zygote stage, a person?
Yes! I understand what you were getting at now. Thanks for explaining.

I'm not sure if I believe that a soul is a person. I think that a soul is more than what a person is, but also can be thought of as defining what a person is. If we are our souls (which I consider to be much the same as the "personality" of a person, that is what make a given person to be that person), then is a dead body still a person? Which also gives rise to the question, is an unborn human a person before the soul enters the body? And also, when does the soul enter the body of an unborn human?

God's vision is infinite. Ours is limited. The Bible says that God knit us together in our mother's womb. It also says we are fearfully and wonderfully made. It also says that God knew us before the foundation of the world. He seems to know more than me. He brought me forth and i have this soul inside that misses Him and wants to see Him, once again, rejoice over me with singing. God indeed is semingly invisible, right now. AS was I at one time. Yet, as time progressed I became more visible. I believe my soul has always been present. It reminds me of Genesis and what is written there about God breathing life into Adam, and Adam becoming a living soul. God's breath, in essence, life, and the presence of it defines us as a person, what ever stage that may be.

Is a dead body a person? Well they're sorta like that lump of clay God formed before breathing life into it.

If you're really interested in exploring this further, Ravi Zacharias may address the issue in one of his many lectures. He has a web site. I think it's rzim.org

 

[WatersMoon110]

Is a dead body a person? Well they're sorta like that lump of clay God formed before breathing life into it.

In the opposite form, I guess (the clay left after the life has been removed from it?).

God's vision is infinite. Ours is limited. The Bible says that God knit us together in our mother's womb. It also says we are fearfully and wonderfully made. It also says that God knew us before the foundation of the world. He seems to know more than me. He brought me forth and i have this soul inside that misses Him and wants to see Him, once again, rejoice over me with singing. God indeed is semingly invisible, right now. AS was I at one time. Yet, as time progressed I became more visible. I believe my soul has always been present. It reminds me of Genesis and what is written there about God breathing life into Adam, and Adam becoming a living soul. God's breath, in essence, life, and the presence of it defines us as a person, what ever stage that may be.

Yeah, the Bible does say that God forms people in the womb, but also that He knew them before the womb as well. I think that it is the Biblical view that the soul that makes someone a person. God's breath of life, as you said.

But, in the context of this thread, I wonder what this means for unborn humans who don't make it to birth (who are miscarried, aborted, or stillborn). I mean, maybe God knew that a given unborn human wouldn't make it to life (like if they were formed without a forebrain), would He still give them a soul? I mean, only He fully understands His actions, and I would dare to dream that my mortal brain is even slightly capable of comprehending His reasoning. But I wonder if He might only put souls into unborn humans that are destined to survive? Though, then again, I don't know what this says for, like, poor babies who die of SIDS when they are three days old.

I guess that the answer to my questions really are: we can speculate, but only God knows. *wink* I do love to speculate though.

Thanks for your responses! I really feel like I understand far better what you were trying to say! *grin*

 

[brinny]

In the opposite form, I guess (the clay left after the life has been removed from it?).
Yeah, the Bible does say that God forms people in the womb, but also that He knew them before the womb as well. I think that it is the Biblical view that the soul that makes someone a person. God's breath of life, as you said.

But, in the context of this thread, I wonder what this means for unborn humans who don't make it to birth (who are miscarried, aborted, or stillborn). I mean, maybe God knew that a given unborn human wouldn't make it to life (like if they were formed without a forebrain), would He still give them a soul? I mean, only He fully understands His actions, and I would dare to dream that my mortal brain is even slightly capable of comprehending His reasoning. But I wonder if He might only put souls into unborn humans that are destined to survive? Though, then again, I don't know what this says for, like, poor babies who die of SIDS when they are three days old.

I guess that the answer to my questions really are: we can speculate, but only God knows. *wink* I do love to speculate though.

Thanks for your responses! I really feel like I understand far better what you were trying to say! *grin*

hehe sometimes that can be difficult

If interested in further exploration on the issue, Ravi Zacharias is a brilliant apologist. He may address the issue in one of his many lectures. Check him out.

 

[WatersMoon110]

Still, Ravi Zacharias is a brilliant apologist. He may address the issue in one of his many lectures. Check him out.

I did, actually. Thanks for the link!

 

[brinny]

I did, actually. Thanks for the link!

haha you did? was it the right link? well goodgoogaloogamooga, hot diggity dog, got it right

and you're welcome

 

[brinny]

Ooops, time to listen to Iz and catch a butterfly..