What is a mystic?

[ViaCrucis]

I'm fairly certain that's the only kind of death they talk about in the bible.

It's not. Unless you want to make the case that when Stephen was stoned by a mob and died in the process it was actually talking about Baptism. Or if you want to try and argue that when Jezebel was thrown out of the window and later eaten by dogs it's talking about a spiritual experience. You could do that, but it'd be pretty silly.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Neochristian]

I like it!


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[ViaCrucis]

I like it!


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Except that it makes no sense to do so. Stephen was actually stoned to death, not as a metaphor for baptism or regeneration, but because people actually took up rocks, and hurled those rocks at him until he stopped being alive.

"No one may see me and live" is talking about the sheer terror of God, the spiritual death which St. Paul speaks about, connecting it with baptism by participating in the death of Jesus (which is an actual death, not some metaphor for death), is not the death of beholding the terrifying face of the Almighty.

We see, frequently, what happens when people have an encounter with the Divine, or even with agents of the Divine, they are regularly terrified, filled with dread, they fall down on their faces. They cannot endure it. That's why God acts through Means, He comes to us veiled, mediated, for our own benefit because without that it would utterly destroy us. Moses himself had to wear a veil to shield the Israelites from his face, for simply beholding the "backside" of God was enough to make his face shine like the sun.

There is no "face to face" encounter with the naked God. We instead behold the face of God by encountering the clothed God; God clothed in the humanity of Jesus, clothed in the humility of bread and wine, in the water of Baptism, etc. That is how we encounter God this side of the Eschaton, that's how God presents Himself to us and for us.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Neochristian]

That sounds like doctrine. Is there scripture to back it up?


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[ViaCrucis]

That sounds like doctrine. Is there scripture to back it up?


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Throughout the biblical narratives God acts through means: Jacob wrestles with God in the form of an angel, God appears to Moses as a burning bush, God leads the Israelites as a pillar of fire/smoke, through angelic agents, acts through a bronze serpent, etc. No one ever sits down to have a chat with God in His naked, raw divinity. Which is kind of the reason why the fourth evangelist can write something like, "No one has at any time ever seen God"; there is always an intermediary, an agency through which God expresses Himself and acts. The priesthood, the prophets, theophanies, etc. And then there's the Incarnation--Jesus Himself. There's the Sacraments, the preaching of the Word, etc.

So even supposing the legitimacy of profoundly mystical experiences, they can never be anything more than an encounter with God's backside.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Neochristian]

Paul also said no one loves god and no one is good. You didn't answer my question.


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[ViaCrucis]

Paul also said no one loves god and no one is good. You didn't answer my question.


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My argument does not come from a biblical proof text, but from an observation of the large breadth of biblical material taken as a whole.

I can certainly point to specific passages of Scripture if you'd like:

No one can see God:

"'But,' he said, 'you cannot see my face, for man shall not see me and live.'" - Exodus 33:20

"It is he alone who has immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no one has ever seen or can see; to him be honor and eternal dominion. Amen." - 1 Timothy 6:16

"No one has ever seen God. It is God the only Son, who is close to the Father’s heart, who has made him known." - John 1:18

Encounters with the Divine are downright terrifying:

"So I arose and went out into the valley, and behold, the glory of the Lord stood there, like the glory that I had seen by the Chebar canal, and I fell on my face." - Ezekiel 3:23

"Like the appearance of the bow that is in the cloud on the day of rain, so was the appearance of the brightness all around. Such was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the Lord. And when I saw it, I fell on my face, and I heard the voice of one speaking. And he said to me, “Son of man, stand on your feet, and I will speak with you.” And as he spoke to me, the Spirit entered into me and set me on my feet, and I heard him speaking to me." - Ezekiel 1:28-2:2

"As soon as Solomon finished his prayer, fire came down from heaven and consumed the burnt offering and the sacrifices, and the glory of the Lord filled the temple. And the priests could not enter the house of the Lord, because the glory of the Lord filled the Lord's house." - 2 Chronicles 7:1-2

God uses means:

"When all the people witnessed the thunder and lightning, the sound of the trumpet, and the mountain smoking, they were afraid and trembled and stood at a distance, and said to Moses, 'You speak to us, and we will listen; but do not let God speak to us, or we will die.'" - Exodus 20:18-19

"And the Word became flesh and lived among us, and we have seen his glory, the glory as of a father’s only son, full of grace and truth." - John 1:14

"Jesus said to him, 'I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you know me, you will know my Father also. From now on you do know him and have seen him.'" - John 14:6-7

"So faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes through the word of Christ." - Romans 10:17

"Then he took a loaf of bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to them, saying, 'This is my body, which is given for you. Do this in remembrance of me.' And he did the same with the cup after supper, saying, 'This cup that is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood.'" - Luke 22:19-20

"The cup of blessing that we bless, is it not a sharing in the blood of Christ? The bread that we break, is it not a sharing in the body of Christ? Because there is one bread, we who are many are one body, for we all partake of the one bread. Consider the people of Israel; are not those who eat the sacrifices partners in the altar?" - 1 Corinthians 10:16-18

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Neochristian]

I'm not even a little bit convinced.


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[FireDragon76]

Bronze age people articulating fear of death in an encounter with God says as much, if not moreso, about their culture's patriarchy and violence as it does about God. In their minds, great people were always dangerous and unpredictable (one reason even today we cut celebrities more slack for their drunken tirades?)

There's a sense of "terror" in most forms of primitive religion and mysticism. German theologian Rudolf Otto called this the Numinous, the mysterium tremendum et fascinans (the terrible and fascinating mystery), because usually mystical experiences have a sense of awe that is fear mixed with fascination, to varying degrees. Which is one reason primitive people sought atonement or purification through magical means before their could commune with divine beings.