Are there some in the church that do not hear his voice and do not open the door? What happens to them? What about Ezekiel 18? Are we free to kill our own soul with our own sin?
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What impact did the FALL of Adam have ?
- Thread starter cygnusx1
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Are there some in the church that do not hear his voice and do not open the door? What happens to them? What about Ezekiel 18? Are we free to kill our own soul with our own sin?
- Apr 12, 2004
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you don't know me very well , that will be the day when I move from mans corrupt nature to man's so called free will !
I have been posting here for years and I am not too wrapped up in philosophy to support it.
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We have two chuches Babylon and the ekklicia. Babylon is the baby goats:
Matt 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divided his sheep from the goats:
A sheep is a mature believe, a sheep is loyal to His master and eats only the best of the spiritual grasses.
Of course a goat will eat any carnal garbage as long as it is in front of his nose. Notice I am speaking of God's people for both of these animals are clean according to Jewish law, a pig would be a good symbolism of the unjust. They are not clean yet because God has not called them.
I see a goat as an immature believer (baby goat); who are separated because of their spiritual immaturity.
Many are mature in their little religious box; but are immature spiritually; they have that immature goat nature. What garbage have you been eating to believe that Jesus is a terriorist.
Sheep Separated from Goats
Where on the other hand a goat or the Greek word (eriphos or kid; baby goat) So I see it as God separating his Sheep mature from His immature kids; spiritually speaking)
NT:2056
1 Corin 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world (age) are come.
If you were a Jew in Jesus day there would be no problem with this parable, you see a Jew knows a goat and a sheep are clean animals.
Actually nothing; the unqualified and unjust and bias translators obvious made a grave error in the word everlasting and should of translated it ages (NT:166 Aionios). The word means ages; limit duration. The has happen a number of times in scripture and can be easily proven by the context of the verse.
Unless of cource you baby goats want to burn forever and ever.
But according to these bias translators God is going to send a baby goat to everlasting fire.
Matt 25:41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angel (messengers)
Our soul must be saved, but our spirit returns to God who gave it.
Matt 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divided his sheep from the goats:
A sheep is a mature believe, a sheep is loyal to His master and eats only the best of the spiritual grasses.
Of course a goat will eat any carnal garbage as long as it is in front of his nose. Notice I am speaking of God's people for both of these animals are clean according to Jewish law, a pig would be a good symbolism of the unjust. They are not clean yet because God has not called them.
I see a goat as an immature believer (baby goat); who are separated because of their spiritual immaturity.
Many are mature in their little religious box; but are immature spiritually; they have that immature goat nature. What garbage have you been eating to believe that Jesus is a terriorist.
Sheep Separated from Goats
Where on the other hand a goat or the Greek word (eriphos or kid; baby goat) So I see it as God separating his Sheep mature from His immature kids; spiritually speaking)
NT:2056
1 Corin 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world (age) are come.
If you were a Jew in Jesus day there would be no problem with this parable, you see a Jew knows a goat and a sheep are clean animals.
Actually nothing; the unqualified and unjust and bias translators obvious made a grave error in the word everlasting and should of translated it ages (NT:166 Aionios). The word means ages; limit duration. The has happen a number of times in scripture and can be easily proven by the context of the verse.
Unless of cource you baby goats want to burn forever and ever.
But according to these bias translators God is going to send a baby goat to everlasting fire.
Matt 25:41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angel (messengers)
Our soul must be saved, but our spirit returns to God who gave it.
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I don't see the answer to my question in Matt 25:31 and following which is about loving indiviudals and unloving individuals and it teaches that our hope of eternal existence is connected to our love for others, just as Jesus taught when He answer the question how do I inherit eternal life.
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heymikey80
Quidquid Latine dictum sit, altum viditur
I've been kinda captivated by the number of different ways in which the Fall had an impact. I think the one often overlooked is the covenantal impact. In some way like a will, our inheritance was wiped out by God's disowning the human race in Adam.
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On the contrary, the fall was only the beginning of God's covenant with the human race. With out the fall there is no need for a savior.
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Consider that Adam became "sinful" after receiving the Knowledge of Good and Evil. The knowledge of Good and Evil most likely represented the commandments of God manifesting in his conscience. By the commandments of the Law, I understand what is good and what is evil. This was one of Paul's central tenets when discussing original sin.
Romans 7:7: . . . Indeed I would not have known what sin was except through the law.
Romans 7:8: . . . apart from the law, sin was dead
Romans 4:15: . . . for where there is no law, there is no transgression
Romans 513: . . . sin is not imputed where there is no law.
1 Cor 15:16: The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law.
Genesis 2:17: " . . . but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”
Romans 5:12: . . . Therefore just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin,
Romans 7:9: I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died.
Genesis 3:7: Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves coverings.
Romans 7:18: For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells.
Genesis 3:22: “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil"
Romans 7:10: And the commandment, which was to bring life, I found to bring death.
Before Adam ate from the tree and gained the knowledge of good and evil, he had no consciousness of any law against his flesh. How could his mind be seared with sin, with no law? When he ate from the tree, he received consciousness of the law, but the commandments that were to bring life, he found to bring death, because of the natural enmity of his own flesh towards the commandments. He was then trapped in sinful flesh, and trapped into an evil conscience before God, unable to meet the requirements of the good found in the newly revealed law, but only to be enslaved to the evil.
This understanding is the precursor to understanding Liberty. Jesus, representing the perfect man in the flesh, was sacrificed. He was the commandments in living form. To accept that he was given up by God is to lose consciousness of law against your flesh.
masqed.blogspot.com
Romans 7:7: . . . Indeed I would not have known what sin was except through the law.
Romans 7:8: . . . apart from the law, sin was dead
Romans 4:15: . . . for where there is no law, there is no transgression
Romans 513: . . . sin is not imputed where there is no law.
1 Cor 15:16: The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law.
Genesis 2:17: " . . . but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”
Romans 5:12: . . . Therefore just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin,
Romans 7:9: I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died.
Genesis 3:7: Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves coverings.
Romans 7:18: For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells.
Genesis 3:22: “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil"
Romans 7:10: And the commandment, which was to bring life, I found to bring death.
Before Adam ate from the tree and gained the knowledge of good and evil, he had no consciousness of any law against his flesh. How could his mind be seared with sin, with no law? When he ate from the tree, he received consciousness of the law, but the commandments that were to bring life, he found to bring death, because of the natural enmity of his own flesh towards the commandments. He was then trapped in sinful flesh, and trapped into an evil conscience before God, unable to meet the requirements of the good found in the newly revealed law, but only to be enslaved to the evil.
This understanding is the precursor to understanding Liberty. Jesus, representing the perfect man in the flesh, was sacrificed. He was the commandments in living form. To accept that he was given up by God is to lose consciousness of law against your flesh.
masqed.blogspot.com
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The opening post has claimed that Adam in his fallen state cannot HEAR the voice of God, because he is dead in sins… although this is not what the bible teaches.
First, here is a portion of the OP…
NOW, If we simply read the story in Genesis, we see plainly that after the fall, Adam was able to hear the voice of God, and not only that, he understood it. Adam hid from the presence of God precisely because he had heard the voice of God walking in the garden.
Simple biblical proof which shows that the fall does not prevent man from hearing the voice of God…
The LORD Himself affirms that it’s not about being able to hear, but rather OBEYING the simple message of the gospel… (Matt 7)
Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of Mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.
And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at His doctrine: For He taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.
So in summary, it’s not biblically accurate to claim that Adam cannot hear the voice of God because he is dead in sins… the word of God makes no such claim on Adam, even in his fallen state resulting from disobedience…
The woman was deceived, but the man was not deceived.
The OP also says this…
The bible does teach that believing God is credited as righteousness… even the righteousness of Christ… for He IS our exceeding and great REWARD to the endless praise of God.
Nothing we could do could ever have earned His righteousness, it is freely given (as a GIFT) to those who receive it in faith… to those who embrace His promises toward us, to those who simply hear His voice, and believe on Him.
Today if you hear His voice… harden not your heart.
Behold, I stand at the door and knock. 'IF' any man HEAR MY VOICE and open the door, I will come in to him and will sup with him and he with Me." 　
First, here is a portion of the OP…
cygnusx1 said:
cygnusx1 said:
NOW, If we simply read the story in Genesis, we see plainly that after the fall, Adam was able to hear the voice of God, and not only that, he understood it. Adam hid from the presence of God precisely because he had heard the voice of God walking in the garden.
Simple biblical proof which shows that the fall does not prevent man from hearing the voice of God…
The LORD Himself affirms that it’s not about being able to hear, but rather OBEYING the simple message of the gospel… (Matt 7)
Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of Mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.
And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at His doctrine: For He taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.
So in summary, it’s not biblically accurate to claim that Adam cannot hear the voice of God because he is dead in sins… the word of God makes no such claim on Adam, even in his fallen state resulting from disobedience…
The woman was deceived, but the man was not deceived.
The OP also says this…
cygnusx1 said:
The bible does teach that believing God is credited as righteousness… even the righteousness of Christ… for He IS our exceeding and great REWARD to the endless praise of God.
Nothing we could do could ever have earned His righteousness, it is freely given (as a GIFT) to those who receive it in faith… to those who embrace His promises toward us, to those who simply hear His voice, and believe on Him.
Today if you hear His voice… harden not your heart.
Behold, I stand at the door and knock. 'IF' any man HEAR MY VOICE and open the door, I will come in to him and will sup with him and he with Me." 　
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- Apr 12, 2004
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you are aware that there are two types of hearing as there are seeing aren't you ? do you see what I mean , do you really SEE what I mean ? sight is often a synonym for knowing
"let him who has ears " means what ? all have got ears , but only some HEAR , ie, undestand and obey .
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I hear you... (meaning I understand you)
I'm simply pointing out the error of your opening post... you claim that man cannot hear God's voice because he is dead in sins... the bible does not teach that... are you telling me it does teach that in light of what Genesis plainly teaches...?
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Not a real simple question, but there must of been some of the glory of God left for Adam and many of the early people of Genesis lived to be very old. Adam did hear God when God proclaimed he and Eve were naked. But it was Cain who really left the presence of God and went eastward and built a city. The same is not said of Adam.
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The natural man cannot hear or see or hear God, it is the spiritual man who hears God and many hear only religion.
1 Corinthians 2:14 (New King James Version)
14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
1 Corinthians 2:14 (New International)
14 The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.
1 Corinthians 2:14 (WE)
14The person who does not have the Spirit does not receive the blessings of the Spirit of God. He thinks they are foolish. He cannot understand them because only people who have the Spirit of God can test them.
1 Corinthians 2:14 (NIRV)
14 Some people don't have the Holy Spirit. They don't accept the things that come from the Spirit of God. Things like that are foolish to them. They can't understand them. In fact, such things can't be understood without the Spirit's help.
1 Corinthians 2:14 (New King James Version)
14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
1 Corinthians 2:14 (New International)
14 The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.
1 Corinthians 2:14 (WE)
14The person who does not have the Spirit does not receive the blessings of the Spirit of God. He thinks they are foolish. He cannot understand them because only people who have the Spirit of God can test them.
1 Corinthians 2:14 (NIRV)
14 Some people don't have the Holy Spirit. They don't accept the things that come from the Spirit of God. Things like that are foolish to them. They can't understand them. In fact, such things can't be understood without the Spirit's help.
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It is a simple question with a simple answer...
Could Adam hear the voice of God after the fall... YES he could... that's what is written in the word of God. Adam even understood the Lord when He spoke... that's what the bible says in its simplicity.
Are you telling me that Adam could NOT hear the voice of God after the fall ?
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Romans 8:1 THEREFORE, [there is] now no condemnation (no adjudging guilty of wrong) for those who are in Christ Jesus, who live [and] walk not after the dictates of the flesh, but after the dictates of the Spirit.(1)
2For the law of the Spirit of life [which is] in Christ Jesus [the law of our new being] has freed me from the law of sin and of death.
3For God has done what the Law could not do, [its power] being weakened by the flesh [[1] the entire nature of man without the Holy Spirit]. Sending His own Son in the guise of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, [God] condemned sin in the flesh [[2] subdued, overcame, [3] deprived it of its power over all who accept that sacrifice],(2)
4So that the righteous and just requirement of the Law might be fully met in us who live and move not in the ways of the flesh but in the ways of the Spirit [our lives governed not by the standards and according to the dictates of the flesh, but controlled by the Holy Spirit].
5For those who are according to the flesh and are controlled by its unholy desires set their minds on and [4] pursue those things which gratify the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit and are controlled by the desires of the Spirit set their minds on and [5] seek those things which gratify the [Holy] Spirit.
6Now the mind of the flesh [which is sense and reason without the Holy Spirit] is death [death that [6] comprises all the miseries arising from sin, both here and hereafter]. But the mind of the [Holy] Spirit is life and [soul] peace [both now and forever].
7[That is] because the mind of the flesh [with its carnal thoughts and purposes] is hostile to God, for it does not submit itself to God's Law; indeed it cannot.
8So then those who are living the life of the flesh [catering to the appetites and impulses of their carnal nature] cannot please or satisfy God, or be acceptable to Him.
9But you are not living the life of the flesh, you are living the life of the Spirit, if the [Holy] Spirit of God [really] dwells within you [directs and controls you]. But if anyone does not possess the [Holy] Spirit of Christ, he is none of His [he does not belong to Christ, is not truly a child of God].(3)
10But if Christ lives in you, [then although] your [natural] body is dead by reason of sin and guilt, the spirit is alive because of [the] righteousness [that He imputes to you].
11And if the Spirit of Him Who raised up Jesus from the dead dwells in you, [then] He Who raised up Christ Jesus from the dead will also restore to life your mortal (short-lived, perishable) bodies through His Spirit Who dwells in you.
12So then, brethren, we are debtors, but not to the flesh [we are not obligated to our carnal nature], to live [a life ruled by the standards set up by the dictates] of the flesh.
13For if you live according to [the dictates of] the flesh, you will surely die. But if through the power of the [Holy] Spirit you are [habitually] putting to death (making extinct, deadening) the [evil] deeds prompted by the body, you shall [really and genuinely] live forever.
14For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.
2For the law of the Spirit of life [which is] in Christ Jesus [the law of our new being] has freed me from the law of sin and of death.
3For God has done what the Law could not do, [its power] being weakened by the flesh [[1] the entire nature of man without the Holy Spirit]. Sending His own Son in the guise of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, [God] condemned sin in the flesh [[2] subdued, overcame, [3] deprived it of its power over all who accept that sacrifice],(2)
4So that the righteous and just requirement of the Law might be fully met in us who live and move not in the ways of the flesh but in the ways of the Spirit [our lives governed not by the standards and according to the dictates of the flesh, but controlled by the Holy Spirit].
5For those who are according to the flesh and are controlled by its unholy desires set their minds on and [4] pursue those things which gratify the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit and are controlled by the desires of the Spirit set their minds on and [5] seek those things which gratify the [Holy] Spirit.
6Now the mind of the flesh [which is sense and reason without the Holy Spirit] is death [death that [6] comprises all the miseries arising from sin, both here and hereafter]. But the mind of the [Holy] Spirit is life and [soul] peace [both now and forever].
7[That is] because the mind of the flesh [with its carnal thoughts and purposes] is hostile to God, for it does not submit itself to God's Law; indeed it cannot.
8So then those who are living the life of the flesh [catering to the appetites and impulses of their carnal nature] cannot please or satisfy God, or be acceptable to Him.
9But you are not living the life of the flesh, you are living the life of the Spirit, if the [Holy] Spirit of God [really] dwells within you [directs and controls you]. But if anyone does not possess the [Holy] Spirit of Christ, he is none of His [he does not belong to Christ, is not truly a child of God].(3)
10But if Christ lives in you, [then although] your [natural] body is dead by reason of sin and guilt, the spirit is alive because of [the] righteousness [that He imputes to you].
11And if the Spirit of Him Who raised up Jesus from the dead dwells in you, [then] He Who raised up Christ Jesus from the dead will also restore to life your mortal (short-lived, perishable) bodies through His Spirit Who dwells in you.
12So then, brethren, we are debtors, but not to the flesh [we are not obligated to our carnal nature], to live [a life ruled by the standards set up by the dictates] of the flesh.
13For if you live according to [the dictates of] the flesh, you will surely die. But if through the power of the [Holy] Spirit you are [habitually] putting to death (making extinct, deadening) the [evil] deeds prompted by the body, you shall [really and genuinely] live forever.
14For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.
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- Apr 12, 2004
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man hears alright , I have made that particular point dozens of times in my arguments with Hypers !
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