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What if you seek and don't find?

Athée

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Prosperity came upon me from walking the way. Whether I did bad or well I would have walked the way either way. Granted not every one is going to get rich following God, but if he sends prosperity I am going to enjoy and be thankful for it.
That makes a lot more sense to me and I am happy for you. Let me say though that it seems dismissive or perhaps insensitive to imply that those who suffer do so because they aren't as faithful as you. That said congrats it is always nice to hear about people doing well. Quick question if sometimes following God leads to wealth and success and other times it leads to poverty and misery how do you determine that God is in fact behind it at all? How would you distinguish it from what would have happened without a divine intervention?
 
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rockytopva

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That makes a lot more sense to me and I am happy for you. Let me say though that it seems dismissive or perhaps insensitive to imply that those who suffer do so because they aren't as faithful as you. That said congrats it is always nice to hear about people doing well. Quick question if sometimes following God leads to wealth and success and other times it leads to poverty and misery how do you determine that God is in fact behind it at all? How would you distinguish it from what would have happened without a divine intervention?

I consider myself a Pentecostal Methodist. Please read description #7 on John Wesley's 'What is a Methodist?' ....


1. We believe, indeed, that "all Scripture is given by the inspiration of God.” We believe the written word of God to be the only and sufficient rule both of Christian faith and practice.

2. We do not place our religion, or any part of it, in being attached to any peculiar mode of speaking, any quaint or uncommon set of expressions.

3. Our religion does not lie in doing what God has not enjoined, or abstaining from what he hath not forbidden. It does not lie in the form of our apparel, in the posture of our body, or the covering of our heads; nor yet in abstaining from marriage, or from meats and drinks, which are all good if received with thanksgiving.

4. Nor, lastly, is he distinguished by laying the whole stress of religion on any single part of it

5. "What then is the mark? Who is a Methodist, according to your own account?" I answer: A Methodist is one who has "the love of God shed abroad in his heart by the Holy Ghost given unto him;" one who "loves the Lord his God with all his heart, and with all his soul, and with all his mind, and with all his strength. God is the joy of his heart, and the desire of his soul; which is constantly crying out, "Whom have I in heaven but thee? and there is none upon earth that I desire beside thee! My God and my all! Thou art the strength of my heart, and my portion for ever!"

6. He is therefore happy in God, yea, always happy, as having in him "a well of water springing up into everlasting life," and overflowing his soul with peace and joy. "Perfect love" having now "cast out fear," he "rejoices evermore." He "rejoices in the Lord always," even "in God his Saviour;" and in the Father, "through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom he hath now received the atonement." "Having" found "redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of his sins," he cannot but rejoice, whenever he looks back on the horrible pit out of which he is delivered; when he sees "all his transgressions blotted out as a cloud, and his iniquities as a thick cloud." He cannot but rejoice, whenever he looks on the state wherein he now is; "being justified freely, and having peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ." For "he that believeth, hath the witness" of this "in himself;" being now the son of God by faith. "Because he is a son, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into his heart, crying, Abba, Father!" And "the Spirit itself beareth witness with his spirit, that he is a child of God." He rejoiceth also, whenever he looks forward, "in hope of the glory that shall be revealed;" yea, this his joy is full, and all his bones cry out, "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who, according to his abundant mercy, hath begotten me again to a living hope -- of an inheritance incorruptible, undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for me!"

7. And he who hath this hope, thus "full of immortality, in everything giveth thanks;" as knowing that this (whatsoever it is) "is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning him." From him, therefore, he cheerfully receives all, saying, "Good is the will of the Lord;" and whether the Lord giveth or taketh away, equally "blessing the name of the Lord." For he hath "learned, in whatsoever state he is, therewith to be content." He knoweth "both how to be abased and how to abound

8. For indeed he "prays without ceasing." It is given him "always to pray, and not to faint.”

9. And while he thus always exercises his love to God, by praying without ceasing, rejoicing evermore, and in everything giving thanks, this commandment is written in his heart, "That he who loveth God, love his brother also." And he accordingly loves his neighbour as himself; he loves every man as his own soul. His heart is full of love to all mankind, to every child of "the Father of the spirits of all flesh

10. For he is "pure in heart." The love of God has purified his heart from all revengeful passions, from envy, malice, and wrath, from every unkind temper or malign affection. It hath cleansed him from pride and haughtiness of spirit, whereof alone cometh contention. And he hath now "put on bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering:" So that he "forbears and forgives, if he had a quarrel against any; even as God in Christ hath forgiven him." And indeed all possible ground for contention, on his part, is utterly cut off. For none can take from him what he desires; seeing he "loves not the world, nor" any of "the things of the world;" being now "crucified to the world, and the world crucified to him;" being dead to all that is in the world, both to "the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eye, and the pride of life." For "all his desire is unto God, and to the remembrance of his name."

11. Agreeable to this his one desire, is the one design of his life, namely, "not to do his own will, but the will of Him that sent him." His one intention at all times and in all things is, not to please himself, but Him whom his soul loveth. He has a single eye. And because "his eye is single, his whole body is full of light." Indeed, where the loving eye of the soul is continually fixed upon God, there can be no darkness at all, "but the whole is light; as when the bright shining of a candle doth enlighten the house." God then reigns alone. All that is in the soul is holiness to the Lord. There is not a motion in his heart, but is according to his will. Every thought that arises points to Him, and is in obedience to the law of Christ.

12. And the tree is known by its fruits. For as he loves God, so he keeps his commandments; not only some, or most of them, but all, from the least to the greatest. He is not content to "keep the whole law, and offend in one point;" but has, in all points, "a conscience void of offence towards God and towards man."

13. All the commandments of God he accordingly keeps, and that with all his might. For his obedience is in proportion to his love, the source from whence it flows. And therefore, loving God with all his heart, he serves him with all his strength.

14. By consequence, whatsoever he doeth, it is all to the glory of God. His one invariable rule is this, "Whatsoever ye do, in word or deed, do it all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him."

15. Nor do the customs of the world at all hinder his "running the race that is set before him." He knows that vice does not lose its nature, though it becomes ever so fashionable; and remembers, that "every man is to give an account of himself to God." He cannot, therefore, "follow" even "a multitude to do evil." He cannot "fare sumptuously every day," or "make provision for the flesh to fulfill the lusts thereof." He cannot "lay up treasures upon earth," any more than he can take fire into his bosom. He cannot "adorn himself," on any pretence, "with gold or costly apparel." He cannot join in or countenance any diversion which has the least tendency to vice of any kind. He cannot "speak evil" of his neighbour, any more than he can lie either for God or man. He cannot utter an unkind word of any one; for love keeps the door of his lips. He cannot speak "idle words;" "no corrupt communication" ever "comes out of his mouth," as is all that "which is" not "good to the use of edifying," not "fit to minister grace to the hearers." But "whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are" justly "of good report," he thinks, and speaks, and acts, "adorning the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ in all things."

16. Lastly. As he has time, he "does good unto all men;" unto neighbours and strangers, friends and enemies: And that in every possible kind; not only to their bodies, by "feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, visiting those that are sick or in prison;" but much more does he labour to do good to their souls, as of the ability which God giveth; to awaken those that sleep in death; to bring those who are awakened to the atoning blood, that, "being justified by faith, they may have peace with God;" and to provoke those who have peace with God to abound more in love and in good works.

17. These are the principles and practices of our sect; these are the marks of a true Methodist. By these alone do those who are in derision so called, desire to be distinguished from other men. If any man say, "Why, these are only the common fundamental principles of Christianity!" thou hast said; so I mean; this is the very truth; I know they are no other; and I would to God both thou and all men knew, that I, and all who follow my judgment, do vehemently refuse to be distinguished from other men, by any but the common principles of Christianity, -- the plain, old Christianity that I teach, renouncing and detesting all other marks of distinction. And having the mind that was in Christ, he so walks as Christ also walked.

18. By these marks, by these fruits of a living faith, do we labour to distinguish ourselves from the unbelieving world from all those whose minds or lives are not according to the Gospel of Christ.
 
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Athée

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I consider myself a Pentecostal Methodist. Please read description #7 on John Wesley's 'What is a Methodist?' ....


1. We believe, indeed, that "all Scripture is given by the inspiration of God.” We believe the written word of God to be the only and sufficient rule both of Christian faith and practice.

2. We do not place our religion, or any part of it, in being attached to any peculiar mode of speaking, any quaint or uncommon set of expressions.

3. Our religion does not lie in doing what God has not enjoined, or abstaining from what he hath not forbidden. It does not lie in the form of our apparel, in the posture of our body, or the covering of our heads; nor yet in abstaining from marriage, or from meats and drinks, which are all good if received with thanksgiving.

4. Nor, lastly, is he distinguished by laying the whole stress of religion on any single part of it

5. "What then is the mark? Who is a Methodist, according to your own account?" I answer: A Methodist is one who has "the love of God shed abroad in his heart by the Holy Ghost given unto him;" one who "loves the Lord his God with all his heart, and with all his soul, and with all his mind, and with all his strength. God is the joy of his heart, and the desire of his soul; which is constantly crying out, "Whom have I in heaven but thee? and there is none upon earth that I desire beside thee! My God and my all! Thou art the strength of my heart, and my portion for ever!"

6. He is therefore happy in God, yea, always happy, as having in him "a well of water springing up into everlasting life," and overflowing his soul with peace and joy. "Perfect love" having now "cast out fear," he "rejoices evermore." He "rejoices in the Lord always," even "in God his Saviour;" and in the Father, "through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom he hath now received the atonement." "Having" found "redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of his sins," he cannot but rejoice, whenever he looks back on the horrible pit out of which he is delivered; when he sees "all his transgressions blotted out as a cloud, and his iniquities as a thick cloud." He cannot but rejoice, whenever he looks on the state wherein he now is; "being justified freely, and having peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ." For "he that believeth, hath the witness" of this "in himself;" being now the son of God by faith. "Because he is a son, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into his heart, crying, Abba, Father!" And "the Spirit itself beareth witness with his spirit, that he is a child of God." He rejoiceth also, whenever he looks forward, "in hope of the glory that shall be revealed;" yea, this his joy is full, and all his bones cry out, "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who, according to his abundant mercy, hath begotten me again to a living hope -- of an inheritance incorruptible, undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for me!"

7. And he who hath this hope, thus "full of immortality, in everything giveth thanks;" as knowing that this (whatsoever it is) "is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning him." From him, therefore, he cheerfully receives all, saying, "Good is the will of the Lord;" and whether the Lord giveth or taketh away, equally "blessing the name of the Lord." For he hath "learned, in whatsoever state he is, therewith to be content." He knoweth "both how to be abased and how to abound

8. For indeed he "prays without ceasing." It is given him "always to pray, and not to faint.”

9. And while he thus always exercises his love to God, by praying without ceasing, rejoicing evermore, and in everything giving thanks, this commandment is written in his heart, "That he who loveth God, love his brother also." And he accordingly loves his neighbour as himself; he loves every man as his own soul. His heart is full of love to all mankind, to every child of "the Father of the spirits of all flesh

10. For he is "pure in heart." The love of God has purified his heart from all revengeful passions, from envy, malice, and wrath, from every unkind temper or malign affection. It hath cleansed him from pride and haughtiness of spirit, whereof alone cometh contention. And he hath now "put on bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering:" So that he "forbears and forgives, if he had a quarrel against any; even as God in Christ hath forgiven him." And indeed all possible ground for contention, on his part, is utterly cut off. For none can take from him what he desires; seeing he "loves not the world, nor" any of "the things of the world;" being now "crucified to the world, and the world crucified to him;" being dead to all that is in the world, both to "the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eye, and the pride of life." For "all his desire is unto God, and to the remembrance of his name."

11. Agreeable to this his one desire, is the one design of his life, namely, "not to do his own will, but the will of Him that sent him." His one intention at all times and in all things is, not to please himself, but Him whom his soul loveth. He has a single eye. And because "his eye is single, his whole body is full of light." Indeed, where the loving eye of the soul is continually fixed upon God, there can be no darkness at all, "but the whole is light; as when the bright shining of a candle doth enlighten the house." God then reigns alone. All that is in the soul is holiness to the Lord. There is not a motion in his heart, but is according to his will. Every thought that arises points to Him, and is in obedience to the law of Christ.

12. And the tree is known by its fruits. For as he loves God, so he keeps his commandments; not only some, or most of them, but all, from the least to the greatest. He is not content to "keep the whole law, and offend in one point;" but has, in all points, "a conscience void of offence towards God and towards man."

13. All the commandments of God he accordingly keeps, and that with all his might. For his obedience is in proportion to his love, the source from whence it flows. And therefore, loving God with all his heart, he serves him with all his strength.

14. By consequence, whatsoever he doeth, it is all to the glory of God. His one invariable rule is this, "Whatsoever ye do, in word or deed, do it all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him."

15. Nor do the customs of the world at all hinder his "running the race that is set before him." He knows that vice does not lose its nature, though it becomes ever so fashionable; and remembers, that "every man is to give an account of himself to God." He cannot, therefore, "follow" even "a multitude to do evil." He cannot "fare sumptuously every day," or "make provision for the flesh to fulfill the lusts thereof." He cannot "lay up treasures upon earth," any more than he can take fire into his bosom. He cannot "adorn himself," on any pretence, "with gold or costly apparel." He cannot join in or countenance any diversion which has the least tendency to vice of any kind. He cannot "speak evil" of his neighbour, any more than he can lie either for God or man. He cannot utter an unkind word of any one; for love keeps the door of his lips. He cannot speak "idle words;" "no corrupt communication" ever "comes out of his mouth," as is all that "which is" not "good to the use of edifying," not "fit to minister grace to the hearers." But "whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are" justly "of good report," he thinks, and speaks, and acts, "adorning the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ in all things."

16. Lastly. As he has time, he "does good unto all men;" unto neighbours and strangers, friends and enemies: And that in every possible kind; not only to their bodies, by "feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, visiting those that are sick or in prison;" but much more does he labour to do good to their souls, as of the ability which God giveth; to awaken those that sleep in death; to bring those who are awakened to the atoning blood, that, "being justified by faith, they may have peace with God;" and to provoke those who have peace with God to abound more in love and in good works.

17. These are the principles and practices of our sect; these are the marks of a true Methodist. By these alone do those who are in derision so called, desire to be distinguished from other men. If any man say, "Why, these are only the common fundamental principles of Christianity!" thou hast said; so I mean; this is the very truth; I know they are no other; and I would to God both thou and all men knew, that I, and all who follow my judgment, do vehemently refuse to be distinguished from other men, by any but the common principles of Christianity, -- the plain, old Christianity that I teach, renouncing and detesting all other marks of distinction. And having the mind that was in Christ, he so walks as Christ also walked.

18. By these marks, by these fruits of a living faith, do we labour to distinguish ourselves from the unbelieving world from all those whose minds or lives are not according to the Gospel of Christ.
Man I seriously hope that was a copy paste job... :)

So I see the general thrust of those statements but I would be interested in how you would apply that to the specific situation we were talking about. How could we know that God and not merely natural factors were behind the success of some who profess faith and the misery of others who also profess the same faith?
 
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Athée

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I've been seeking for 40 years. Don't yet know if I should keep in, search elsewhere or throw in the towel. I've had good discussion in other threads on this, but I'm still on the fence
As you sit upon the fence do you feel pulled in any particular direction by any particular thing? And what is the force countering that pull if indeed such a pull exists?
 
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AV1611VET

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So how have you come to be so confident that your God belief is accurate and true?
Romans 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
 
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Mountain_Girl406

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As you sit upon the fence do you feel pulled in any particular direction by any particular thing? And what is the force countering that pull if indeed such a pull exists?
Three forces. ...one is the cultural pull that comes from being raised in a Catholic faith. While I've explored other Christian faiths, I feel a connection to the Catholic faith. The second is s strong curiosity about pagan beliefs, especially the very old ones. Finally the strongest pull is a curiosity that makes me driven to figure out how everything works. ..this is the countering pull, I guess, as more and more of the things I once believed points to the supernatural can be explained by natural phenomenon
 
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Athée

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Three forces. ...one is the cultural pull that comes from being raised in a Catholic faith. While I've explored other Christian faiths, I feel a connection to the Catholic faith. The second is s strong curiosity about pagan beliefs, especially the very old ones. Finally the strongest pull is a curiosity that makes me driven to figure out how everything works. ..this is the countering pull, I guess, as more and more of the things I once believed points to the supernatural can be explained by natural phenomenon
It sounds like there is a pull of identity, of tradition of mystery for you but that this is difficult reconcile with your experience that natural explanations are sufficient to describe your experience of the world. Do you have any reason to believe that a God exists or likely exists?
 
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food4thought

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This is a great question. Looking back I got a lot from my time as a believer feelings of community, belonging some good friends and a respect for believers if not always for their beliefs. As for why I ended up changing my beliefs it began with 1 Peter 3:15 and as I investigated the issues trying to make the best possible case for God I became aware of the weakness of the evidence and was exposed to the naturalistic explanations for all the experiences I had in church.

Thank you for responding, Kvothe. Can we get a little more specific on the weak evidences? Maybe just one or two to begin. Maybe one of us can offer some insight into some things that you have not heard.

I was a YEC when I first became a believer, but over time I found that position did not have strong evidence to support it, so I have changed my stance on that quite a bit. Sometimes we can be taught something is the only Biblical understanding, and then later discover that we were taught wrong... there are other views of creation that fit well with the evidences and with a more mature understanding of the texts of the Bible.

-------------------edit-------------------
Also, what experiences in church are you referring to?
 
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Oncedeceived

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I've been seeking for 40 years. Don't yet know if I should keep in, search elsewhere or throw in the towel. I've had good discussion in other threads on this, but I'm still on the fence
I would advise to leave religion and search for God and ask that He identify Himself to you. That is where you should always begin. Don't look into any religion right now and just completely surrender and pray for God to show you He exists and who He is.
 
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Oncedeceived

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Three forces. ...one is the cultural pull that comes from being raised in a Catholic faith. While I've explored other Christian faiths, I feel a connection to the Catholic faith. The second is s strong curiosity about pagan beliefs, especially the very old ones. Finally the strongest pull is a curiosity that makes me driven to figure out how everything works. ..this is the countering pull, I guess, as more and more of the things I once believed points to the supernatural can be explained by natural phenomenon
You believe that points to the supernatural can be explain by natural phenomenon but without laws and logic which do not have any natural explanation all the others don't get off the ground.
 
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Oncedeceived

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Ask away! Um... Tough to recall if there was one specific thing. I remember reading the anthologies edited by John Lotus and then reading my way though the references and bibliographies. I was part of a fairly literalist denomination so some of the things like genesis story, Noah etc became problematic as I actually looked into what scientists had to say about the observable data. The problem of the reliability of the new testament.... Once I started to question the underlying structures of my faith it kind of snowballed from there.
What was the problem of the reliability of the New Testament?
 
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Mountain_Girl406

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I would advise to leave religion and search for God and ask that He identify Himself to you. That is where you should always begin. Don't look into any religion right now and just completely surrender and pray for God to show you He exists and who He is.
That's a big part of what I've been doing these past 40 years. No response yet.
 
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Mountain_Girl406

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It sounds like there is a pull of identity, of tradition of mystery for you but that this is difficult reconcile with your experience that natural explanations are sufficient to describe your experience of the world. Do you have any reason to believe that a God exists or likely exists?
That sums it up nicely. I would like something to exist, and I think the universe might be diverse and interesting enough to support a natural being or beings who might appear to us to be supernatural, but I personally don't have any experience yet of such things
 
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