What if you’re wrong about hell?

Shrewd Manager · Mar 14, 2020

Der Alter said:
Absolute rubbish. Did you not read the scripture I posted? What does "is NOT made perfect." mean? Please show me where anyone will be made perfect in the lake of fire.

Piffle and balderdash der Alter.

Any threat of an afterlife place of eternal conscious torment is FEAR-based. That fear needs to be overcome in order to be perfected in LOVE. The emergence of the repentant nations and kings of the earth in Rev 21:24 is evidence of the transformative effect of the divine fire on the unbelievers.

According to reputable sources including Aristotle and Clement of Alexandria, kolasin connotes correction, is derived from 'pruning', and is distinguished from 'timoreisis'. Take it up with those guys.

Charlie24 · Mar 14, 2020

Der Alter said:
I think you responded to the wrong post. I thought I was on your side.

Yes I did, sorry. I thought I was posting to SW.

Got to many things going on around me here to be online anyway, lol.

Charlie24 · Mar 14, 2020

Der Alter said:
I think you responded to the wrong post. I thought I was on your side.

Man, it's worse than I thought now that I look at it.

I responded to your post thinking SW wrote it.

Yes, thank God, I'm glad we are on the same side.

You are making it hard on the home boys.

Der Alte · Mar 14, 2020

Shrewd Manager said:
Piffle and balderdash der Alter.
Any threat of an afterlife place of eternal conscious torment is FEAR-based. [Nonsense!] That fear needs to be overcome in order to be perfected in LOVE. The emergence of the repentant nations and kings of the earth in Rev 21:24 is evidence of the transformative effect of the divine fire on the unbelievers.[Nonsense!]
According to reputable sources including Aristotle and Clement of Alexandria, [Nonsense!] kolasin connotes correction, is derived from 'pruning', and is distinguished from 'timoreisis'. Take it up with those guys.

I'm taking it up with you. Since you can't read Greek you don't have the slightest idea what Aristotle or Clement or any other Greek writer said about anything. All you have is second/third hand copy/paste from your favorite UR website.
I showed you from the NT and the BDAG that kolasis does NOT mean correction. Rev 21:24 does NOT show anything about the fire and believers.

Shrewd Manager · Mar 14, 2020

Der Alter said:
I'm taking it up with you.

Take it up with them.

Der Alter said:
I showed you from the NT and the BDAG that kolasis does NOT mean correction.

STRONGS NT 2849: κολαζο

κολαζο: present passive participle κολαζόμενος; 1 aorist middle sub. junc. 3 person plural κολάσωνται; (κόλος lopped); in Greek writings:

1. properly, to lop, prune, as trees, wings.

2. to check, curb, restrain.

3. to chastise, correct, punish: so in the N. T.; passive 2 Peter 2:9, and Lachmann in 4; middle to cause to be punished (3Macc. 7:3): Acts 4:21.

Strong's Greek: 2849. κολάζω (kolazó) -- to chastise

Der Alter said:
Rev 21:24 does NOT show anything about the fire and believers.

Are you unable to connect things, der Alter? Look, very simple:
Step 1: Unbelievers thrown into lake of fire.
Step 2: Unbelievers bring honour to the throne.

So, work it out der Alter. What's happened in the intemezzo?

SarahsKnight · Mar 14, 2020

mmksparbud said:
If you have been convicted of something by the Holy Spirit and you reject it---then you are in sin

Precisely the reason I forsook the accursed eternal torment doctrine at last about seven years ago, and refuse to go back. I believe it would be a great sin for me to do so, after the Holy Spirit has clearly shown me that the Bible simply does not provide sufficient evidence for eternal conscious torment or that humans either are or have souls that are inherently immortal with or without the salvation that Christ brings, and that His character does not allow for torture or sadism.

SarahsKnight · Mar 14, 2020

Saint Steven said:
So the end justifies the means?

To many believers it does unfortunately seem to be so.

PaulCyp1 · Mar 14, 2020

If the one Church Jesus Christ founded, to which He promised the fullness of truth until the end of time, is "wrong" about Hell, then Jesus was either a liar or a confused individual who didn't know what He was talking about, and in either case, not worth following.

martymonster · Mar 14, 2020

PaulCyp1 said:
If the one Church Jesus Christ founded, to which He promised the fullness of truth until the end of time, is "wrong" about Hell, then Jesus was either a liar or a confused individual who didn't know what He was talking about, and in either case, not worth following.

Or everything he said was in parable form (his words) and you just don't understand those parables.

mmksparbud · Mar 14, 2020

SarahsKnight said:
Precisely the reason I forsook the accursed eternal torment doctrine at last about seven years ago, and refuse to go back. I believe it would be a great sin for me to do so, after the Holy Spirit has clearly shown me that the Bible simply does not provide sufficient evidence for eternal conscious torment or that humans either are or have souls that are inherently immortal with or without the salvation that Christ brings, and that His character does not allow for torture or sadism.

Agree. However, I do not agree with Universalism. However much they claim that hell is a place where sinners are "refined" like gold---it is still trying to torture into submission. You can word it anyway you want, it still ends up God will torture them until they submit. There is no verse where anyone comes out of the lake of fire and into eternal life. There is no 2nd chance.

Basil the Great · Mar 14, 2020

Der Alter said:
Jesus taugh,

• “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” Matthew 25:41
• "these shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"
• "the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, Mark 9:43-48"
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50
• “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” Matthew 18:6
• “And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” Matthew 7:23
• “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. ” Matthew 26:24
• “But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.” Luke 10:12
…..These teachings tacitly reaffirmed and sanctioned a then existing significant Jewish view of eternal hell, outlined above. In Matt. 18:6, 26:24 and Luk 10:12, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a punishment worse than death or nonexistence.
…..A punishment worse than death without mercy is also mentioned in Hebrews 10:28-31.

Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
…..Jesus is quoted as using the word death 17 times in the gospels, if He wanted to say eternal death in Matt 25:46, that is what He would have said but He didn’t, He said “eternal punishment.” The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, they knew that everybody died; rich, poor, young, old, good, bad, men, women, children, infants and knew that often it had nothing to do with punishment and was permanent. When Jesus taught “eternal punishment” they would not have understood it as merely death, it would have meant something worse to them.
…..Concerning “punishment” one early church father wrote,

“‘Then these reap no advantage from their punishment, as it seems: moreover, I would say that they are not punished unless they are conscious of the punishment.” Justin Martyr [A.D. 110-165.] Dialogue with Trypho Chapter 4
…..Jesus undoubtedly knew about the Jewish belief in hell. If the Jews were wrong, why didn’t Jesus tell them there was no hell, no eternal punishment etc? Why would Jesus teach “eternal punishment,” etc. to Jews who believed, "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity," which would only encourage and reinforce their beliefs?

Yes, you make a strong case for Hell and eternal punishment when looking at the words of Jesus. However...... and most of you will not like to hear this, but the same Jesus taught that that those who do not show mercy to the hungry and homeless will go to Hell, even if they call him "Lord". Hence, while important, one's faith will not save him, if he fails to perform acts of love and mercy.

martymonster · Mar 15, 2020

Basil the Great said:
Yes, you make a strong case for Hell and eternal punishment when looking at the words of Jesus. However...... and most of you will not like to hear this, but the same Jesus taught that that those who do not show mercy to the hungry and homeless will go to Hell, even if they call him "Lord". Hence, while important, one's faith will not save him, if he fails to perform acts of love and mercy.

I take it that you are getting that from this these to verses.

Mat 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
Mat 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
Mat 25:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
Mat 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
Mat 25:35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
Mat 25:36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
Mat 25:37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
Mat 25:38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
Mat 25:39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
Mat 25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Mat 25:42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
Mat 25:43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
Mat 25:44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
Mat 25:45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Luk 16:19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
Luk 16:20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
Luk 16:21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
Luk 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
Luk 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
Luk 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
Luk 16:25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
Luk 16:26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
Luk 16:27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
Luk 16:28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
Luk 16:29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
Luk 16:30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
Luk 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

You need to bear in mind, that these are parables, and not to be taken at face value. They are very deep, require significant scriptural understanding to interpret correctly.

martymonster · Mar 15, 2020

mmksparbud said:
Agree. However, I do not agree with Universalism. However much they claim that hell is a place where sinners are "refined" like gold---it is still trying to torture into submission. You can word it anyway you want, it still ends up God will torture them until they submit. There is no verse where anyone comes out of the lake of fire and into eternal life. There is no 2nd chance.

The lake of fire, is merely God's judgement on sinners, and it's their own consciences that torment them. The fire in the lake of fire are Christ's words.

Joh 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Joh 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

Christ delivers his judgement through his elect. That's why they are his first fruits, because the come first, and through them comes the rest of the harvest.

Jer 5:14 Wherefore thus saith the LORD God of hosts, Because ye speak this word, behold, I will make my words in thy mouth fire, and this people wood, and it shall devour them.

mmksparbud · Mar 15, 2020

martymonster said:
The lake of fire, is merely God's judgement on sinners, and it's their own consciences that torment them. The fire in the lake of fire are Christ's words.

Joh 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Joh 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

Christ delivers his judgement through his elect. That's why they are his first fruits, because the come first, and through them comes the rest of the harvest.

Jer 5:14 Wherefore thus saith the LORD God of hosts, Because ye speak this word, behold, I will make my words in thy mouth fire, and this people wood, and it shall devour them.

Disagree.

Deu_4:24 For the LORD thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God.
Deu_9:3 Understand therefore this day, that the LORD thy God is he which goeth over before thee; as a consuming fire he shall destroy them, and he shall bring them down before thy face: so shalt thou drive them out, and destroy them quickly, as the LORD hath said unto thee.
Heb_12:29 For our God is a consuming fire.
2Ki_1:10 And Elijah answered and said to the captain of fifty, If I be a man of God, then let fire come down from heaven, and consume thee and thy fifty. And there came down fire from heaven, and consumed him and his fifty.
2Ki_1:12 And Elijah answered and said unto them, If I be a man of God, let fire come down from heaven, and consume thee and thy fifty. And the fire of God came down from heaven, and consumed him and his fifty.
Job_1:16 While he was yet speaking, there came also another, and said, The fire of God is fallen from heaven, and hath burned up the sheep, and the servants, and consumed them; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee.

Eze_28:16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
Rev_20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

martymonster · Mar 15, 2020

mmksparbud said:
Disagree.

Deu_4:24 For the LORD thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God.
Deu_9:3 Understand therefore this day, that the LORD thy God is he which goeth over before thee; as a consuming fire he shall destroy them, and he shall bring them down before thy face: so shalt thou drive them out, and destroy them quickly, as the LORD hath said unto thee.
Heb_12:29 For our God is a consuming fire.
2Ki_1:10 And Elijah answered and said to the captain of fifty, If I be a man of God, then let fire come down from heaven, and consume thee and thy fifty. And there came down fire from heaven, and consumed him and his fifty.
2Ki_1:12 And Elijah answered and said unto them, If I be a man of God, let fire come down from heaven, and consume thee and thy fifty. And the fire of God came down from heaven, and consumed him and his fifty.
Job_1:16 While he was yet speaking, there came also another, and said, The fire of God is fallen from heaven, and hath burned up the sheep, and the servants, and consumed them; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee.

Eze_28:16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
Rev_20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Zec 13:9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.

1Co 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
1Co 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
1Co 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
1Co 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
1Co 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

Joh 2:18 Then answered the Jews and said unto him, What sign shewest thou unto us, seeing that thou doest these things?
Joh 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
Joh 2:20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
Joh 2:21 But he spake of the temple of his body.

The Liturgist · Mar 15, 2020

Saint Steven said:
So the end justifies the means?

No, it doesn’t, but frankly I don’t see why you would even ask me that based on anything in my reply.

The grace of God is what draws people into the Christian religion, and my experience is that people who are not baptized into our faith respond most favorably to discussions of the loving nature of God. And God is infinitely loving, as it says in the Gospel.

It also says in the Gospel that through our faith in Jesus Christ, we can receive the blessing of resurrection into everlasting life, and avoid condemnation. For people unfamiliar with Christianity, the idea of salvation from death is enough; if we dwell on the horrors of damnation, catechumens and interested persons might recoil thinking that God desires this and is in some way responsible for it, when scripture makes it clear that God in no way desires the death of a sinner, and that as the wages of sin are death, sinners alone who refuse the salvific grace offered by our Lord are responsible for what happens, a necessary consequence of free will (which is in turn a necessary condition for us to be able to love God voluntarily, that being the basis for my own preference for the traditional Christian soteriology restated in the Protestant community by Jacob Arminius and John Wesley, as opposed to alternative, deterministic forms of soteriology, which my research indicates were unknown in the early church).

The Liturgist · Mar 15, 2020

Saint Steven said:
That's the lie we all grew up with. That Christ saved us from hell.
Receive the free gift of salvation. (or you're toast) - lol

Apokatastasis was quite properly rejected as a theological error, indeed, as a heresy, at the Fifth Ecumenical Council (although I do believe that Emperor Justinian acted arbitrarily in anathematizing Origen for his belief in apokatastasis, when St. Gregory Nyssa also believed in it, and Origen was as widely respected for his piety in the third century, if not more so, than St. Gregory Nyssa in the fourth (whose importance unlike that of Origen, who was individually and uniquely vital in the Church of Alexandria, was that of one of several pro-Nicene Christians known as the Cappadocians, including his older brother St. Basil the Great, and his older brother’s best friend, St. Gregory Nazianzus, neither of whom expressed a belief in apokatastasis).

The last denomination where a belief in apokatasis was common was the Church of the East, where we see it reflected in the writings of the Assyrian monk St. Isaac the Syrian and lastly in The Book of the Bee by the Assyrian Metropolitan bishop, His Eminence Mar Solomon Bassorah, dating from 1222 AD. Since that time, the Church of the East has rejected Apokatastasis.

It should also be stressed that Apokatasis as believed in in antiquity, and Universalism as believed today, by, for example, members of the Unitarian Universalist Association, are not the same thing. Indeed, the idea of Apokatastasis as viewed in antiquity is, I think, best summarized by this quote from The Book of the Bee:

A lasting reward, which is worthy of the justice of the Giver, is laid up for the good, in return for their labours; and torment for sinners, but not everlasting, that the immortality which is prepared for them may not be worthless. They must however be tormented for a short time, as they deserve, in proportion to the measure of their iniquity and wickedness, according to the amount of the wickedness of their deeds. This they will have to bear, that they suffer for a short time; but immortal and unending happiness is prepared for them.

That said, I do reject this as an error, in line with the overwhelming consensus of the early Church; I believe that CS Lewis instead properly expressed the truth of the matter when he said “the gates of Hell are locked on the inside.” That is to say, scripture indicates there are people who are so filled with hate that loving God would be impossible for them, and so, tragically, they are binded by their boundless capacity for self-destructive hated.

The Liturgist · Mar 15, 2020

PaulCyp1 said:
If the one Church Jesus Christ founded, to which He promised the fullness of truth until the end of time, is "wrong" about Hell, then Jesus was either a liar or a confused individual who didn't know what He was talking about, and in either case, not worth following.

Indeed, this is also a valid point.

The Liturgist · Mar 15, 2020

Saint Steven said:
Are you claiming that God predestined people for an eternity in hell? That they will be tormented forever with no hope of escape? That is a terrible thing to accuse God of. Sounds more like an angry volcano god to me.

This is a valid criticism of some aspects of Reformed theology which reject Free Will, but I would say that embracing Universalism is not the correct response to this error.

It is also worth considering, in all fairness to the Calvinists, that, while I for example do believe in free will, I also understand their position, since determinism and predestination do appear to flow from divine omniscience.

However, from my perspective, monergism itself is an error; the fathers of the early church, even St. Augustine, Origen and St. Gregory of Nyssa, the Desert Fathers, and certainly later Patristic figures such as St. John of Damascus and the Hesychasts, make it clear that we are saved through cooperation with God’s grace as opposed to a unilateral action on God’s part or on our own (Universalism, Calvinism and Pelagianism are all variants of Monergism).

Saint Steven · Mar 15, 2020

Charlie24 said:
It's not for me to prove!

Your theology hinges on it!

You have to prove it!!!

You mean disprove, right?
Here's what you wrote.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Charlie24 said: ↑
This can only happen on the false presumption that man will get a second chance after death to repent, which is not biblical.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

So, what's your support?
Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, - Hebrews 9:27
Got anything else?

Does that say ANYTHING about no second chance for repentance? (nope)
What is the "judgment" that we will all face? The cleansing with the fire of God.
Our part in that process is confession and repentance. Any questions?

What if you’re wrong about hell?

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