What if you’re wrong about hell?

[The Liturgist]

C.S. Lewis also said > > >

"In the Christian story, God descends to re-ascend. He comes down...down to the very roots and sea-bed of the Nature He has created. But He goes down to come up again and bring the whole ruined world up with Him."

CS Lewis was not a Universalist, and explictly presented a belief in both Hell and eternal punishment, in his works Mere Christianity, and The Great Divorce.

 

[The Liturgist]

The Restitution of all things has nothing to do with "free will"! It begins in God and ends in God with zero input by broken mankind!

Ergo, monergism. Also I do have to confess, I do find it slightly grating how you are basically quoting CS Lewis in support of a doctrine he did not agree with.

 

[Saint Steven]

...people who hate God align themselves with evil...

This is the rationale for blaming hell on the victims. Because "people who hate God" deserve to be there, right? Well, don't we all deserve to be there?

And those fortunate souls (the Elect) that were predestined to avoid victimization can be thankful that it is someone else who is burning for all eternity with no hope of escape. PTL

Even though the Bible teaches us that it is godly behavior to love our enemies.
If I love someone, I wouldn't dream of consigning them to an eternal BBQ.

Matthew 5:43-48
“You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

 

[Saint Steven]

If you want to bring up Biblical support...

I'll save us both the waste of time. You will claim my scriptures do not mean what they plainly say, citing cherry-picking and out-of-context usage. We have both heard it all before. Right?

 

[FineLinen]

Ergo, monergism. Also I do have to confess, I do find it slightly grating how you are basically quoting CS Lewis in support of a doctrine he did not agree with.

I wonder what C.S. Lewis meant then by this quote by him?

"In the Christian story, God descends to re-ascend. He comes down...down to the very roots and sea-bed of the Nature He has created. But He goes down to come up again and bring the whole ruined world up with Him." C.S. Lewis-

 

[Saint Steven]

It is not a threat. To hate God is to love wickedness, and Hellfire is the natural outcome of wickedness. “The wages of sin are death.”

We are already dead at birth. Spiritually dead. Born to the consequence of sin.

To claim that the victims of hell hate God is a justification smoke screen.

Does an agnostic hate God, or are they just not sufficiently convinced?
Do those raised under other religions hate God, or are they lacking knowledge?

Would you put these folks in a forever burning hell?
- The countless billions raised outside of Christianity.
- The countless billions who are not fully convinced yet.
All toast?

Saint Steven said: ↑
How is the threat of hell "voluntary and devoid of coercion"?

 

[Saint Steven]

I would say the correct response is to acknowledge free will and the self-evident truth that a genuine love for God needs must be voluntary and devoid of coercion, and that conversely, people who hate God align themselves with evil by the very nature of such an act, and this evil is what torments them in the hereafter. However, voluntary love of God is not possible unless people are given the choice to love or not to love (and it would be actively cruel of God to force us into the pretense of loving Him where such love was not genuine, whereas his granting of free will is a kindness, even for those who make the unfortunate decision to hate God, because whatever suffering they endure as a result of their misotheism is less than what would be experienced as the result of being compelled to participate in a relationship devoid of genuine, voluntary love.

Thanks for responding to my question, even though I didn't agree with it. I appreciate the effort and clarification.

 

[FineLinen]

I wonder what C.S. Lewis meant then by this quote by him?

"In the Christian story, God descends to re-ascend. He comes down...down to the very roots and sea-bed of the Nature He has created. But He goes down to come up again and bring the whole ruined world up with Him." C.S. Lewis-

However: this thread is not about the Restitution, the thread is regarding ONE known intimately as dearest Daddy, aka Abba Father, doing anything short of good, NOT the insanity of unending hopelessness & misery! ! !

 

[Basil the Great]

I take it that you are getting that from this these to verses.


Mat 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
Mat 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
Mat 25:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
Mat 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
Mat 25:35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
Mat 25:36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
Mat 25:37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
Mat 25:38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
Mat 25:39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
Mat 25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Mat 25:42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
Mat 25:43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
Mat 25:44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
Mat 25:45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Luk 16:19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
Luk 16:20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
Luk 16:21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
Luk 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
Luk 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
Luk 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
Luk 16:25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
Luk 16:26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
Luk 16:27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
Luk 16:28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
Luk 16:29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
Luk 16:30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
Luk 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

You need to bear in mind, that these are parables, and not to be taken at face value. They are very deep, require significant scriptural understanding to interpret correctly.

If that passage is just a parable, then perhaps all of Jesus' words about eternal punishment are not really meant to be taken literally. I do not see how you can say one is just a parable and the other is not.

 

[martymonster]

If that passage is just a parable, then perhaps all of Jesus' words about eternal punishment are not really meant to be taken literally. I do not see how you can say one is just a parable and the other is not.

I would never say that one isn't a parable. They are all parables. Christ said so himself. A lot of Christian assert that Christ's words are literal, but for some reason, I never see removing eyes, feet or hands. Fancy that!

 

[FineLinen]

If that passage is just a parable, then perhaps all of Jesus' words about eternal punishment are not really meant to be taken literally. I do not see how you can say one is just a parable and the other is not.

The fact is this Basil: this passage of Canon is the ONLY one speaking of "everlasting punishment" aka aionios kolasis. The context of pure virgins & unwise investors should also be considered in the scope of who the Lord of Glory is referring.

If you desire to hang your hat on this only verse of Scripture regarding everlasting punishment, do so, but you must accept the 5 conditions for the same.

 

[FineLinen]

If that passage is just a parable, then perhaps all of Jesus' words about eternal punishment are not really meant to be taken literally. I do not see how you can say one is just a parable and the other is not.

Basil: Jesus Christ does NOT speak of aidios punishment, the term you are requiring is aionios punishment. You should also note that this is the ONLY word the Master of Reconciliation uses of the "all" you are pointing!

 

[Saint Steven]

If that passage is just a parable, then perhaps all of Jesus' words about eternal punishment are not really meant to be taken literally. I do not see how you can say one is just a parable and the other is not.

Yes, perhaps Jesus' words about eternal punishment are not really meant to be taken literally. It's called exaggerated emphasis. (as I recall)

Here's a curious thing. Notice the use of descriptive language in all these scriptures
below.
- Sodom is restored from "eternal" fire. Prophesied to be "a wasteland forever".
- Ammon and Moab are restored from being "a wasteland forever" (like Sodom)
- Elam is restored even though prophesied to "fall to rise no more".
- The same for Egypt.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The restoration of Sodom and Gomorrah from "eternal" fire

Jude 1:7
In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

Zephaniah 2:9
Therefore, as surely as I live,”
declares the Lord Almighty,
the God of Israel,
“surely Moab will become like Sodom,
the Ammonites like Gomorrah—
a place of weeds and salt pits,
a wasteland forever.
The remnant of my people will plunder them;
the survivors of my nation will inherit their land.”

Ezekiel 16:53
“‘However, I will restore the fortunes of Sodom and her daughters and of Samaria and her daughters, and your fortunes along with them,


The restoration of Ammon and Moab

Zephaniah 2:9
Therefore, as surely as I live,”
declares the Lord Almighty,
the God of Israel,
“surely Moab will become like Sodom,
the Ammonites like Gomorrah—
a place of weeds and salt pits,
a wasteland forever.
The remnant of my people will plunder them;
the survivors of my nation will inherit their land.”

Jeremiah 25:22, 27
21 Edom, Moab and Ammon; ...
27 “Then tell them, ‘This is what the Lord Almighty, the God of Israel, says:
Drink, get drunk and vomit, and fall to rise no more because of the sword I will send among you.’

Jeremiah 49:6
“Yet afterward, I will restore the fortunes of the Ammonites,”
declares the Lord.

Jeremiah 48:4, 47
4 Moab will be broken;
her little ones will cry out.
47 “Yet I will restore the fortunes of Moab
in days to come,”
declares the Lord.
Here ends the judgment on Moab.


The restoration of Elam

Jeremiah 25:25, 27
25 all the kings of Zimri, Elam and Media; ...
27 “Then tell them, ‘This is what the Lord Almighty, the God of Israel, says:
Drink, get drunk and vomit, and fall to rise no more because of the sword I will send among you.’

Jeremiah 49:39
“Yet I will restore the fortunes of Elam
in days to come,”
declares the Lord.


The restoration of Egypt

Jeremiah 25:19, 27
19 Pharaoh king of Egypt, his attendants, his officials and all his people, ...
27 “Then tell them, ‘This is what the Lord Almighty, the God of Israel, says:
Drink, get drunk and vomit, and fall to rise no more because of the sword I will send among you.’

Ezekiel 29:13-14
“‘Yet this is what the Sovereign Lord says: At the end of forty years I will gather the Egyptians from the nations where they were scattered.
14 I will bring them back from captivity and return them to Upper Egypt, the land of their ancestry. There they will be a lowly kingdom.

 

[Saint Steven]

One of the most common biblical manuscripts used to make our modern English translations is known today as the Nestle Text. Yet it was Prof. Eberhard Nestle himself who warned us in his Einfhrung in die Textkritik des griechischen Testaments: "Learned men, so called Correctores were, following the church meeting at Nicea 325 AD, selected by the church authorities to scrutinize the sacred texts and rewrite them in order to correct their meaning in accordance with the views which the church had just sanctioned."

St. Jerome wrote: "They write down not what they find but what they think is the meaning; and while they attempt to rectify the errors of others, they merely expose their own" (Jerome, Epist. lxxi.5).

 

[Saint Steven]

"The Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge"
by Schaff-Herzog, 1908, volume 12, page 96
German theologian- Philip Schaff writes :

"In the first five or six centuries of Christianity there were six theological schools, of which four (Alexandria, Antioch, Caesarea, and Edessa, or Nisibis) were Universalist, one (Ephesus) accepted conditional immortality; one (Carthage or Rome) taught endless punishment of the wicked. Other theological schools are mentioned as founded by Universalists, but their actual doctrine on this subject is not known."

 

[Saint Steven]

If that passage is just a parable, then perhaps all of Jesus' words about eternal punishment are not really meant to be taken literally.

Here is the scripture I had in mind to share with you. But found the others instead.
We know where the biblical area of Edom is today. Is the smoke still rising forever? Are the streams still turned to pitch? (not to be quenched night or day?) Is "her dust" still "burning sulfur"?

Similar language is used to describe hell.

Edom
Edom was an ancient kingdom in Transjordan located between Moab to the northeast, the Arabah to the west and the Arabian Desert to the south and east. Most of its former territory is now divided between Israel and Jordan.

Isaiah 34:8-11
For the Lord has a day of vengeance,
a year of retribution, to uphold Zion’s cause.
9 Edom’s streams will be turned into pitch,
her dust into burning sulfur;
her land will become blazing pitch!
10 It will not be quenched night or day;
its smoke will rise forever.
From generation to generation it will lie desolate;
no one will ever pass through it again.
11 The desert owl and screech owl will possess it;
the great owl and the raven will nest there.
God will stretch out over Edom
the measuring line of chaos
and the plumb line of desolation.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Apokatastasis was quite properly rejected as a theological error, indeed, as a heresy, at the Fifth Ecumenical Council

Perhaps you can point us to the ecumenical evidence supporting the proposition that Justinian's anathemas were ever passed into canon law by the correct procedure. In particular, how and when were they confirmed?

(although I do believe that Emperor Justinian acted arbitrarily in anathematizing Origen for his belief in apokatastasis,

Ah Justinian, famous for reintroducing Roman law throughout the Empire. By their fruits.

St. Gregory Nyssa also believed in it, and Origen was as widely respected for his piety in the third century, if not more so, than St. Gregory Nyssa in the fourth (whose importance unlike that of Origen, who was individually and uniquely vital in the Church of Alexandria, was that of one of several pro-Nicene Christians known as the Cappadocians, including his older brother St. Basil the Great, and his older brother’s best friend, St. Gregory Nazianzus, neither of whom expressed a belief in apokatastasis)

Gregory Nissen is a recognised saint in both eastern and western traditions, and an ardent universalist. He was the 'father of the fathers' who settled the Nicene Creed, along with his Cappadochian universalist brother Gregory Nazianzus, as you mention. Their universalist views were never anathematised.

Indeed, the idea of Apokatastasis as viewed in antiquity is, I think, best summarized by this quote from The Book of the Bee:

The quote is a misleading commentary which makes a mockery of the true insights into the deep mysteries of God's love plumbed by the likes of Gregory of Nyssa and Origen. May I recommend you actually read those guys.

I believe that CS Lewis instead properly expressed the truth of the matter when he said “the gates of Hell are locked on the inside.” That is to say, scripture indicates there are people who are so filled with hate that loving God would be impossible for them, and so, tragically, they are binded by their boundless capacity for self-destructive hated.

Nuts too tough for God to crack? They've gummed up the door locks? What about Jesus holding the keys to death and Hades? His mission is to free the slaves and liberate the captives. With God, nothing is impossible.

Are you amongst the ranks of those proudly lacking faith in the scriptures and the power of God?

 

[jasonMalloy1999]

people tthink hell is a place where demons torture you wrong. hell is a place where the lost will burn in the lake of fire and burn for eternity aswell as the demon and lucifer getting the same punihmen

 

[Shrewd Manager]

people tthink hell is a place where demons torture you wrong. hell is a place where the lost will burn in the lake of fire and burn for eternity aswell as the demon and lucifer getting the same punihmen

So the 15 year old rape victim gets to burn forever because she blamed Jesus for not saving her from her ordeal?

With a justice system like that, why would anyone trade in man's laws?

 

[mmksparbud]

Zec 13:9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.

1Co 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
1Co 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
1Co 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
1Co 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
1Co 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

Joh 2:18 Then answered the Jews and said unto him, What sign shewest thou unto us, seeing that thou doest these things?
Joh 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
Joh 2:20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
Joh 2:21 But he spake of the temple of his body.

Nothing at all to do with the lake of fire and anyone coming out of it into eternal life. The gift of eternal life is giving to the saved---name one verse that says eternal life will be given to the lost.

Rom_6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Mar_10:30 But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.
Joh_3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
Joh_5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
Joh_6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh_6:68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.
Joh_10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Joh_17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
Joh_17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
Act_13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
Rom_2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
Rom_5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
Rom_6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
1Ti_6:12 Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.
1Ti_6:19 Laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life.
Tit_1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;
Tit_3:7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
1Jn_1:2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us
1Jn_2:25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.
1Jn_3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
1Jn_5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
1Jn_5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
1Jn_5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.
Jud_1:21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

Eze_33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
Eze_18:32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.