What if you’re wrong about hell?

[Shrewd Manager]

UR is a false proclamation that presents God in a false light.

It offers to man an eventual escape from the consequences of his sin without honoring the sacrifice of our Lord.

Charlie, I fear that you have the strawman by the tail there. The consequences of sin are devastating, it may require major surgery in the form of harsh correction. If you've ever had major surgery you'd know that it's not a particularly fun experience.

It gives the false hope of "a second chance" when it is found nowhere in scripture.

Praise the Lord, for He is the God of second chances. He abounds in grace and mercy. It's all over scripture and in our daily lives. If not, we'd all be doomed.

It is a mockery of God, that he is a respecter of persons when the scripture plainly states that He is not.

UR says no such thing of which I'm aware. Damnationism, however, implies that God respects some persons ie those who didn't reject His love by rejecting the threat of eternal conscious torment.

 

[martymonster]

This is false religion. All false religion, and I would not want to get in trouble by naming them, will be judged.

That is no excuse for finding a church and taking part in it. Christ died for the Church, and said, I will build my Church, the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

The Church He speaks of is not a building but is referring to all those world wide who have been washed in the Blood.

But we are to gather together as Paul said to fellowship one with another and carry out the Great Commission that has been given us.

We the Church carry this out together with many parts of the body being One. 1Cor. 12:12-27.

If the Christian church taught the truth, I'd practically never leave the place, but alas.

Pro 7:5 That they may keep thee from the strange woman, from the stranger which flattereth with her words.
Pro 7:6 For at the window of my house I looked through my casement,
Pro 7:7 And beheld among the simple ones, I discerned among the youths, a young man void of understanding,
Pro 7:8 Passing through the street near her corner; and he went the way to her house,
Pro 7:9 In the twilight, in the evening, in the black and dark night:
Pro 7:10 And, behold, there met him a woman with the attire of an harlot, and subtil of heart.
Pro 7:11 (She is loud and stubborn; her feet abide not in her house:
Pro 7:12 Now is she without, now in the streets, and lieth in wait at every corner.)
Pro 7:13 So she caught him, and kissed him, and with an impudent face said unto him,
Pro 7:14 I have peace offerings with me; this day have I payed my vows.
Pro 7:15 Therefore came I forth to meet thee, diligently to seek thy face, and I have found thee.
Pro 7:16 I have decked my bed with coverings of tapestry, with carved works, with fine linen of Egypt.
Pro 7:17 I have perfumed my bed with myrrh, aloes, and cinnamon.
Pro 7:18 Come, let us take our fill of love until the morning: let us solace ourselves with loves.
Pro 7:19 For the goodman is not at home, he is gone a long journey:
Pro 7:20 He hath taken a bag of money with him, and will come home at the day appointed.
Pro 7:21 With her much fair speech she caused him to yield, with the flattering of her lips she forced him.
Pro 7:22 He goeth after her straightway, as an ox goeth to the slaughter, or as a fool to the correction of the stocks;
Pro 7:23 Till a dart strike through his liver; as a bird hasteth to the snare, and knoweth not that it is for his life.
Pro 7:24 Hearken unto me now therefore, O ye children, and attend to the words of my mouth.
Pro 7:25 Let not thine heart decline to her ways, go not astray in her paths.
Pro 7:26 For she hath cast down many wounded: yea, many strong men have been slain by her.
Pro 7:27 Her house is the way to hell, going down to the chambers of death.

Sorry man, but I've already been united with a harlot. I've learned my lesson.

 

[Charlie24]

Me too.
But isn't the predestination of the Elect biblical. (like it or not)

Saint Steven said: ↑
Are you saying you don't believe in the predestination of the Elect?

Calvinists say predestination, as Paul describes it, is the election of the individual.

I say and millions of others, that God chose man, predestined him, for the plan of the Triune God before there was an earth or man.

That plan was that man would be created, would fall because of free will given by God, and the 2nd member of the Godhead would become Man and give His life for sinful man, because man could not pay for His sin on his own sin.

Man was predestined for the plan of God, not predestined for an election of sorts.

 

[martymonster]

I've heard that question, so many times! ....but what if you're wrong? The question just reeks of fear and timidity. God doesn't like timidity.

Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

 

[Saint Steven]

UR is a false proclamation that presents God in a false light.

Does a double negative make a positive? (I hope so)

 

[Saint Steven]

It offers to man an eventual escape from the consequences of his sin without honoring the sacrifice of our Lord.

No it doesn't. Seriously?
Why would you even say such a thing?

 

[Charlie24]

No it doesn't. Seriously?
Why would you even say such a thing?

I say it on the basis that the lost will go to hell, and will eventually be granted a pardon, according to UR.

This can only happen on the false presumption that man will get a second chance after death to repent, which is not biblical.

 

[Saint Steven]

Calvinists say predestination, as Paul describes it, is the election of the individual.

I say and millions of others, that God chose man, predestined him, for the plan of the Triune God before there was an earth or man.

That plan was that man would be created, would fall because of free will given by God, and the 2nd member of the Godhead would become Man and give His life for sinful man, because man could not pay for His sin on his own sin.

Man was predestined for the plan of God, not predestined for an election of sorts.

If that true, this verse should make you believe in UR. (the elect, as you claim, is everyone) Sweet.

Mark 13:27
And he will send his angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Does a double negative make a positive? (I hope so)

Kinda like these 'logical' arguments that posit the death of death equates to annihilation of body and soul. The death of death means that only life remains. As F.L. might say, God gives them a LIFE SENTENCE.

And now He has revealed this grace through the appearing of our Savior, Christ Jesus, who has abolished death and illuminated the way to life and immortality through the gospel (2 Tim 1:10)

 

[Saint Steven]

I say it on the basis that the lost will go to hell, and will eventually be granted a pardon, according to UR.

How is that NOT taking sin seriously?

 

[Der Alte]

What do you like best about hell? (since you will fight to keep it)

The only thing I like about it is, it is scriptural, and not nobody, not no how has ever shown otherwise. Nor can they.

I don't see HELL mentioned in there at all der Alter. But I can smell a pile of dodgy assumptions and questionable translations.
I put it to you that the 'eternal fire' is God's presence, since only God is eternal. God's presence destroys sin by purifying it. I'm loathe to rehearse further debate with you on this matter as we've been over it umpteen times before. I'll just wave this red rag to you: the Greek word translated 'punishment' in the NT is not 'timoreisis' conveying retribution, but 'kolasin' conveying correction, discipline, chastisement. Strong's Greek: 2851. κόλασις (kolasis) -- correction
And so kolasin has an object, purpose and telos. It is inconsistent with an unending process - unless it isn't working. So do you say God's corrective punishments fail?

Rubbish! You do not have the qualifications or the resources necessary to make such determinations. You just copy/paste what suits you from some UR website.
Strong's is a concordance NOT a lexicon. It has been found to have about 15,000 errors and omissions. If you want credible definitions find a lexicon. There must be a UR "scholar" somewhere who has actually studied Greek at the graduate level and is qualified to compile a lexicon.
Your unsupported opinion about "timoreisis" and "kolasin." is irrelevant.
.....The Greek word "kolasis" occurs twice in the NT. The only other occurrence positively does not convey correction, in fact the exact opposite.

1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. [κολασιν/kolasin] He that feareth is not made perfect in love. ​

The one that has "kolasis" is NOT corrected, is not made perfect. Now, deal with that amigo.
Here is the complete definition of Kolasis from BDAG. Not a correction anywhere. The blue highlights indicate the 61 historical sources the authors consulted to determine the definition. Scholars don't sit around making up definitions. If you wish to try to disprove this, you will have to read Greek and review all 61 sources and show how the real scholars are wrong. Let me know when you get that done. I don't expect that in my lifetime.

κόλασις, εως, ἡ (s. prec. three entries; ‘punishment, chastisement’ so Hippocr.+; Diod S 1, 77, 9; 4, 44, 3; Aelian, VH 7, 15; SIG2 680, 13; LXX; TestAbr, Test12Patr, ApcEsdr, ApcSed; AscIs 3:13; Philo, Leg. ad Gai. 7, Mos. 1, 96; Jos., Ant. 17, 164; SibOr 5, 388; Ar. [Milne 76, 43]; Just.)
① infliction of suffering or pain in chastisement, punishment so lit. κ. ὑπομένειν undergo punishment Ox 840, 6; δειναὶ κ. (4 Macc 8:9) MPol 2:4; ἡ ἐπίμονος κ. long-continued torture ibid. Of the martyrdom of Jesus (Orig., C. Cels. 1, 48, 95; 8, 43, 12) PtK 4 p. 15, 34. The smelling of the odor arising fr. sacrifices by polytheists ironically described as punishment, injury (s. κολάζω) Dg 2:9.
② transcendent retribution, punishment (ApcSed 4:1 κόλασις καὶ πῦρ ἐστιν ἡ παίδευσίς σου.— Diod S 3, 61, 5; 16, 61, 1; Epict. 3, 11, 1; Dio Chrys. 80 [30], 12; 2 Macc 4:38 al. in LXX; Philo, Spec. Leg. 1, 55; 2, 196; Jos., Ant. 1, 60 al.; Just.; Did., Gen., 115, 28; 158, 10) ApcPt 17:32; w. αἰκισμός 1 Cl 11:1. Of eternal punishment (w. θάνατος) Dg 9:2 (Diod S 8, 15, 1 κ. ἀθάνατος). Of hell: τόπος κολάσεως ApcPt 6:21 (Simplicius in Epict. p. 13, 1 εἰς ἐκεῖνον τὸν τόπον αἱ κολάσεως δεόμεναι ψυχαὶ καταπέμπονται); ἐν τῇ κ. ἐκείνῃ 10:25; ibid. ἐφορῶσαι τὴν κ. ἐκείνων (cp. ApcEsdr 5:10 p. 30, 2 Tdf. ἐν τῇ κ.). ἐκ τῆς κ. ApcPt Rainer (cp. ἐκ τὴν κ. ApcSed 8:12a; εἰς τὴν κ. 12b and TestAbr B 11 p. 116, 10 [Stone p. 80]). ἀπέρχεσθαι εἰς κ. αἰώνιον go away into eternal punishment Mt 25:46 (οἱ τῆς κ. ἄξιοι ἀπελεύσονται εἰς αὐτήν Iren. 2, 33, 5 [Harv. I 380, 8]; κ. αἰώνιον as TestAbr A 11 p. 90, 7f [Stone p. 28]; TestReub 5:5; TestGad 7:5; Just., A I, 8, 4; D. 117, 3; Celsus 8, 48; pl. Theoph. Ant. 1, 14 [p. 90, 13]). ῥύεσθαι ἐκ τῆς αἰωνίου κ. rescue fr. eternal punishment 2 Cl 6:7. τὴν αἰώνιον κ. ἐξαγοράζεσθαι buy one’s freedom fr. eternal pun. MPol 2:3 v.l. κακαὶ κ. τοῦ διαβόλου IRo 5:3. κ. τινος punishment for someth. (Ezk 14:3, 7; 18:30; Philo, Fuga 65 ἁμαρτημάτων κ.) ἔχειν κόλασίν τινα τῆς πονηρίας αὐτοῦ Hs 9, 18, 1. ἀναπαύστως ἕξουσιν τὴν κ. they will suffer unending punishment ApcPt Bodl. 9–12. ὁ φόβος κόλασιν ἔχει fear has to do with punishment 1J 4:18 (cp. Philo, In Flacc. 96 φόβος κολάσεως).—M-M. TW.[1]
[1] Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., & Bauer, W. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed., p. 555). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.
​

 

[Saint Steven]

This can only happen on the false presumption that man will get a second chance after death to repent, which is not biblical.

Can you prove that? (biblically)

 

[martymonster]

Sin is much more serious than the UR will acknowledge.

The Holy God allowed His perfect Son to be put to death for our sins.

He is dead serious about mans sin.

Man will suffer total and complete separation from God for refusing this gift of life.

Psa 139:7 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?
Psa 139:8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.

 

[Saint Steven]

Like the OP, you look at this in a negative light towards God.

Nothing is more negative toward God than Damnationism.
It turns Abba into an angry volcano god.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

The only other occurrence positively does not convey correction, in fact the exact opposite.
1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. [κολασιν/kolasin] He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

And that's why the fearful are among those who are cast into the LoF in Rev 21:8. Because the LoF IS the perfect love of God that casts out fear. Thank you for reminding us of this scripture der Alter, because it's in perfect harmony with the UR reading of the eschaton.

 

[Charlie24]

Can you prove that? (biblically)

It's not for me to prove!

Your theology hinges on it!

You have to prove it!!!

 

[Der Alte]

Can you prove that? (biblically)

Logical fallacy. A negative cannot be proved But since UR-ites make the claim that reconciliation after death is an absolute. You should be able to find several verses which state that in clear, positive terms. I will settle for one verse but 2 or more would be better.

 

[Charlie24]

Logical fallacy. A negative cannot be proved But since UR-ites make the claim that reconciliation after death is an absolute. You should be able to find several verses which state that in clear, positive terms. I will settle for one verse but 2 or more would be better.

Show it to me, and I will show you what it really means!

 

[Der Alte]

And that's why the fearful are among those who are cast into the LoF in Rev 21:8. Because the LoF IS the perfect love of God that casts out fear. Thank you for reminding us of this scripture der Alter, because it's in perfect harmony with the UR reading of the eschaton.

Absolute rubbish. Did you not read the scripture I posted? What does "is NOT made perfect." mean? Please show me where anyone will be made perfect in the lake of fire. And you are missing the point "Kolasis" does NOT mean correction!

 

[Der Alte]

Show it to me, and I will show you what it really means!

I think you responded to the wrong post. I thought I was on your side.