What if you’re wrong about hell?

[Der Alte]

All the preachers I know preach from a scriptural text, and continue to use several texts relevant to the subject as they proceed.
There is no shortage of text where Christ preached on hell.
Maybe you heard something from a preacher that wasn't scriptural?

The end of Matthew chapter 25 would support that idea.
I think it could be quite different than what we tend to anticipate.
Not only individuals but also nations and kings will be "judged".

Fortunately, a little bit goes a long way. - lol
Seems funny.
The stores ran out of toilet paper, but there "is no shortage of text where Christ preached on hell." We really need to get our priorities straight.

Jesus taugh,

• “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” Matthew 25:41
• "these shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"
• "the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, Mark 9:43-48"
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50
• “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” Matthew 18:6
• “And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” Matthew 7:23
• “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. ” Matthew 26:24
• “But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.” Luke 10:12​

…..These teachings tacitly reaffirmed and sanctioned a then existing significant Jewish view of eternal hell, outlined above. In Matt. 18:6, 26:24 and Luk 10:12, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a punishment worse than death or nonexistence.
…..A punishment worse than death without mercy is also mentioned in Hebrews 10:28-31.

Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.​

…..Jesus is quoted as using the word death 17 times in the gospels, if He wanted to say eternal death in Matt 25:46, that is what He would have said but He didn’t, He said “eternal punishment.” The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, they knew that everybody died; rich, poor, young, old, good, bad, men, women, children, infants and knew that often it had nothing to do with punishment and was permanent. When Jesus taught “eternal punishment” they would not have understood it as merely death, it would have meant something worse to them.
…..Concerning “punishment” one early church father wrote,

“‘Then these reap no advantage from their punishment, as it seems: moreover, I would say that they are not punished unless they are conscious of the punishment.” Justin Martyr [A.D. 110-165.] Dialogue with Trypho Chapter 4​

…..Jesus undoubtedly knew about the Jewish belief in hell. If the Jews were wrong, why didn’t Jesus tell them there was no hell, no eternal punishment etc? Why would Jesus teach “eternal punishment,” etc. to Jews who believed, "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity," which would only encourage and reinforce their beliefs?

 

[martymonster]

OK, I understand now. How do you explain "forsaking not the gathering together?"

Heb. 10:25
Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

I'll explain it to you, after you explain this.

Rev 18:2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.
Rev 18:3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.
Rev 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
Rev 18:5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.

 

[Saint Steven]

OK, I understand now. How do you explain "forsaking not the gathering together?"

The forum is quite a gathering. And Marty's attendance is pretty good. @martymonster

 

[Saint Steven]

Mar 9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

Hence: "everlasting", "fire", "burn" in the bible.

Matthew 23:33 You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?

John 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

2 Peter 2:4 4For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them in chains of darkness to be held for judgment

I mean exactly what I type. I speak exactly what I intend to convey.



So? We can go right back to the days of Christ. We can even ask Christ. There is no need to rely on traditions and teachings of men.

What do you like best about hell? (since you will fight to keep it)

 

[Charlie24]

I'll explain it to you, after you explain this.

Rev 18:2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.
Rev 18:3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.
Rev 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
Rev 18:5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.

This is false religion. All false religion, and I would not want to get in trouble by naming them, will be judged.

That is no excuse for finding a church and taking part in it. Christ died for the Church, and said, I will build my Church, the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

The Church He speaks of is not a building but is referring to all those world wide who have been washed in the Blood.

But we are to gather together as Paul said to fellowship one with another and carry out the Great Commission that has been given us.

We the Church carry this out together with many parts of the body being One. 1Cor. 12:12-27.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Jesus taugh,
• “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” Matthew 25:41
• "these shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"
• "the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, Mark 9:43-48"
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50
• “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” Matthew 18:6
• “And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” Matthew 7:23
• “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. ” Matthew 26:24
• “But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.” Luke 10:12

I don't see HELL mentioned in there at all der Alter. But I can smell a pile of dodgy assumptions and questionable translations.

I put it to you that the 'eternal fire' is God's presence, since only God is eternal. God's presence destroys sin by purifying it. I'm loathe to rehearse further debate with you on this matter as we've been over it umpteen times before. I'll just wave this red rag to you: the Greek word translated 'punishment' in the NT is not 'timoreisis' conveying retribution, but 'kolasin' conveying correction, discipline, chastisement. Strong's Greek: 2851. κόλασις (kolasis) -- correction

And so kolasin has an object, purpose and telos. It is inconsistent with an unending process - unless it isn't working. So do you say God's corrective punishments fail?

 

[jamesbond007]

What if you’re wrong about hell?

The Bible says hell or Lake of Fire exists as it was created by God even before humans. It was for Satan and his demons who disobeyed God. Satan wanted to be "like God." Later, we find Adam and Eve were guilty of the same sin of wanting to be "like God." This is the temptation Satan used masquerading as a serpent.

'But the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die. For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”' Genesis 3:4-5

Thus, it is clear there is a hell already. Plenty of Bible verses describe it. Now, what we do not know are the end times and what happens to those in Hades on the wrong side awaiting final judgement. All of that is allegory and metaphor. It does not sound pleasant as people like the rich man who watched Lazarus suffer and beg of him but didn't do anything. Now, he's suffering in Hades (place of the dead where everyone awaits final judgement). There's more to it than this such as those in the different chambers of Hades were already predestined even before they were born.

What Does the Bible Say About Hell?

If you read the above verses, Revelation and Daniel are the prophecies, so those verses are allegorical. Matthew is generally from Jesus himself.

 

[Saint Steven]

There's more to it than this such as those in the different chambers of Hades were already predestined even before they were born.

Are you claiming that God predestined people for an eternity in hell? That they will be tormented forever with no hope of escape? That is a terrible thing to accuse God of. Sounds more like an angry volcano god to me.

 

[Charlie24]

I don't see HELL mentioned in there at all der Alter. But I can smell a pile of dodgy assumptions and questionable translations.

I put it to you that the 'eternal fire' is God's presence, since only God is eternal. God's presence destroys sin by purifying it. I'm loathe to rehearse further debate with you on this matter as we've been over it umpteen times before. I'll just wave this red rag to you: the Greek word translated 'punishment' in the NT is not 'timoreisis' conveying retribution, but 'kolasin' conveying correction, discipline, chastisement. Strong's Greek: 2851. κόλασις (kolasis) -- correction

And so kolasin has an object, purpose and telos. It is inconsistent with an unending process - unless it isn't working. So do you say God's corrective punishments fail?

Sin is much more serious than the UR will acknowledge.

The Holy God allowed His perfect Son to be put to death for our sins.

He is dead serious about mans sin.

Man will suffer total and complete separation from God for refusing this gift of life.

 

[Charlie24]

Are you claiming that God predestined people for an eternity in hell? That they will be tormented forever with no hope of escape? That is a terrible thing to accuse God of. Sounds more like an angry volcano god to me.

Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. Rom. 10:13

Does that sound like God has predestined anyone to hell?

Don't you think that is an offer to all men, leaving them with a choice?

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Suppose I built a resort for the homeless, and all I asked for admission is that you stop and say thanks on the way in. That's it, say 'thank you I appreciate this' and you're in, tell me to go screw myself and you can sit outside on the curb.

Am I really responsible for those who choose to sit on the curb?

*

Are you actually a Christian?

The idea is that the pearly gates are never closed (Rev 21:25, Isa 60:11), the invitation to wash robes in Lamb's blood and come in for the free stuff stands (Rev 22:17). The life-giving waters are for the healing of the nations (Rev 22:2) after all.

Ask yourself how long can the bad boys tarry outside on the curb while the party with free drinks, and life abundant is going on right inside, and the encouragement to come in is ongoing and real. How long can the 'vile continue to be vile' on the curbside there, before he wakes up forlorn in the pigsty and decides to go home? Forever? Hm?

That's why the Bible ends with 'The grace of the Lord Jesus be with all', it's as they say in the funny pages, 'and they all lived happily everafter.'

 

[Saint Steven]

Sin is much more serious than the UR will acknowledge.

That's a common misconception. I can't believe you have been with us this long and haven't resolved that. Everyone will be salted with fire, even you. (assuming you are a part of everyone)

Mark 9:49
Everyone will be salted with fire.

 

[Saint Steven]

Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. Rom. 10:13

Does that sound like God has predestined anyone to hell?

Don't you think that is an offer to all men, leaving them with a choice?

Are you saying you don't believe in the predestination of the Elect?

 

[Charlie24]

Are you saying you don't believe in the predestination of the Elect?

I detest Calvinism!

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Sin is much more serious than the UR will acknowledge.

The Holy God allowed His perfect Son to be put to death for our sins.

He is dead serious about mans sin.

That's unfair Charlie. UR says sin and death are the MOST serious enemies. Sin is the thorn in our flesh that needs to be removed by the blood of Christ.

But God isn't the kind of doctor who says 'the operation was a success but the patient died.' No, He is the Great Physician who can destroy sin and deliver the sinner, just as Jesus heals the lepers, restores sight to the blind and makes the lame dance like deer.

Man will suffer total and complete separation from God for refusing this gift of life.

To the contrary, God gave His only begotten son so that all might be saved from the condemnation of sin and death. We just say that His victory will be total, He has done it! Why is this such a problem for you Charlie?

 

[Shrewd Manager]

I detest Calvinism!

Are you a ZERO Point Calvinist, Charlie?

 

[Saint Steven]

I detest Calvinism!

Me too.
But isn't the predestination of the Elect biblical. (like it or not)

Saint Steven said: ↑
Are you saying you don't believe in the predestination of the Elect?

 

[Shrewd Manager]

But it is another misrepresentation of what was posted so let me show you how this is done.

Not the most sophisticated of avoidance strategies, but amusing just the same.

 

[Charlie24]

Why is this such a problem for you Charlie?

UR is a false proclamation that presents God in a false light.

It offers to man an eventual escape from the consequences of his sin without honoring the sacrifice of our Lord.

It gives the false hope of "a second chance" when it is found nowhere in scripture.

It is a mockery of God, that he is a respecter of persons when the scripture plainly states that He is not.

 

[jamesbond007]

Are you claiming that God predestined people for an eternity in hell? That they will be tormented forever with no hope of escape? That is a terrible thing to accuse God of. Sounds more like an angry volcano god to me.

Like the OP, you look at this in a negative light towards God. Why not blame Satan? Is he tempting you to be like God?

Basically, Adam and Eve had one commandment and you know what it was. Today, we also have one commandment, not ten, which is John 3:16.

To answer your question, no, not God. People themselves have a free will to choose the way to heaven or the other place. This was explained by Jesus in Matthew. Look in the link I provide of the verses. God already knew where they were going to go even before we were born. Thus, we were predestined for our final destination. IOW, God knew, but he didn't make our choices. We did.

ETA: BTW Satan tempts us to make the decision to be like God even today.