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What if the Protestant reformation never happened?

PreachersWife2004

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Like I asked before. Do you have a problem with your church using Catholic Bibles? I have never seen a Cathlic Bible in a Protestant church. Have you?

We have the NIV bible. Some of our members have Catholic Bibles in their houses. I guess we better go arrest them.

Well considering most 'common men' couldn't read... I guess in your world they shouldn't have the opportunity to at least hear the Word of God, if they couldn't read.

Ah, but we both know that the point of talking about chained up bibles wasn't about whether people could read or not.

So you think all people who cannot read are damned?

Resorting to So's Law, are we? If I believed all people who cannot read are damned I would've said it outright. But that's not what I said. I don't even know how you even came to that conclusion, other than you're just trying to make me look bad.

HINT: Not working.
 
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PreachersWife2004

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I have the Ignatius New Testament Annotated Bible edited by Scott Hahn in my house and I'd like to get the New Jerome Biblical Commentary.

I'm sending the bible cops now.
 
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Erose

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We have the NIV bible. Some of our members have Catholic Bibles in their houses. I guess we better go arrest them.
Many a Catholic Bible was burned during the Protestant revolt along with the Sacred Art.

Do these members who have Catholic Bibles (and I am assuming that they are former Catholics) read these frequently are encouraged to do so?



Ah, but we both know that the point of talking about chained up bibles wasn't about whether people could read or not.
No the point was to keep people from stealing them, since they were extremely expensive to replace, so that all men and women who entered that Church had the opportunity to hear the Word of God.



Resorting to So's Law, are we? If I believed all people who cannot read are damned I would've said it outright. But that's not what I said. I don't even know how you even came to that conclusion, other than you're just trying to make me look bad.

HINT: Not working.
When following out your poor line of logic that is where one ends up.
 
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Erose

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It should also be pointed out the purpose of having a list of banned books in the first place. The Vatican in having this list provided to its members of a list of books that taught heretical positions, and as such it was a warning to them. It isn't as if you read one of these books that you were excommunicated.

The reason why certain Bibles were put on the list is two-fold. 1) some Bibles are not well translated and have false and confusing readings due to the translation. A perfect example of this would be the Jehovah Witness Bible. 2) most bibles even during this period of the advent of the printing press had footnotes, and some of them pretty extensive. These footnotes are used by readers for better clarification of proper reading of passages. Obviously if these footnotes are heretical, then you run the risk of someone being led astray from the truth.

This is not something unique to the Catholic Faith and making such claims is quite dishonest. When I was Pentecostal and Baptist, we were warned about reading certain books, watching certain movies, and listening to certain types of music. At that time I was under the impression, that this was something not unique to these denominations. Granted the UPC did not allow its members to watch TV or Movies at all (which the older I get, I am starting to see that this may be a prudent act).

So if your Church advocates their members to read and watch anything they want without providing some type of advice to its members on what to avoid, quite honestly are you really being prudent toward your parishioners?
 
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GratiaCorpusChristi

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It should also be pointed out the purpose of having a list of banned books in the first place. The Vatican in having this list provided to its members of a list of books that taught heretical positions, and as such it was a warning to them. It isn't as if you read one of these books that you were excommunicated.

The reason why certain Bibles were put on the list is two-fold. 1) some Bibles are not well translated and have false and confusing readings due to the translation. A perfect example of this would be the Jehovah Witness Bible. 2) most bibles even during this period of the advent of the printing press had footnotes, and some of them pretty extensive. These footnotes are used by readers for better clarification of proper reading of passages. Obviously if these footnotes are heretical, then you run the risk of someone being led astray from the truth.

This is not something unique to the Catholic Faith and making such claims is quite dishonest. When I was Pentecostal and Baptist, we were warned about reading certain books, watching certain movies, and listening to certain types of music. At that time I was under the impression, that this was something not unique to these denominations. Granted the UPC did not allow its members to watch TV or Movies at all (which the older I get, I am starting to see that this may be a prudent act).

So if your Church advocates their members to read and watch anything they want without providing some type of advice to its members on what to avoid, quite honestly are you really being prudent toward your parishioners?

When it comes to ecclesiastical recommendation of books, I can absolutely see the merits in having tools like the Nihil obstat or the Imprimatur. They're quite helpful in defining the range of positions available to Catholics, the diversity found within the church, and as general guides to positions of the church beyond what can be found in official church proclamations and semi-official publications like the Catechism.

However, having an Index of Prohibited is, as far as I'm concerned, a very different matter. Outright prohibiting the reading of various materials doesn't help anyone in their search for truth. It hinders it. Reading the Qur'an, the Bhagavad Gita, the Dhammpada, or Calvin's Institutes can help clarify one's own identity as a Catholic or a Lutheran just as well, and sometimes better, than merely reading one's own positions. It should come as no surprise, then, that the Index was abolished.

And this is one thing I just can't grasp about Catholicism: an inability to admit mistakes even when those mistakes have been rectified. The Index was abolished? Great, but it was done by the church at some time so it must still be defended. Hus was burned by the Council of Constance for advocating vernacular worship and communion in both bread and wine? Couldn't have been a mistake, even though Vatican II took up both proposals.

One of the marvelous things about Catholicism is it's conservative development: a slow, deliberate, reasoned adaptation over large historical time scales that allows for progressive change but avoids temporary fads. But this exists together with a belief in the infallibility of the church so strong that it simultaneously denies its own strength. By refusing to see that the church has erred, Catholics ignore some of the greater triumphs of Catholicism.

This is less of a problem with the progress has happened within the church itself, as when Trent addressed the problems of corruption in the church, or Vatican II outright accepted proposals by Hus and Luther that were condemned at Trent. Trent and Vatican II can be celebrated. But for those of us left in the historical dust- Lutherans in particular- this feature of Catholicism can seriously impede interchurch relations and attempts at reuniting the Western Church. And I, for one, want that. I want to be Catholic, Roman Catholic, in union with the bishop of Rome and celebrating the liturgy under the auspices of an ordained bishop. But the character of Catholicism has essentially shut off the possibility of union except through submission, and that submission is not to Christ but to mistakes the church has made and, however much they could be admitted if they were purely internal, cannot be admitted in the face of schismatics like myself.
 
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Erose

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When it comes to ecclesiastical recommendation of books, I can absolutely see the merits in having tools like the Nihil obstat or the Imprimatur. They're quite helpful in defining the range of positions available to Catholics, the diversity found within the church, and as general guides to positions of the church beyond what can be found in official church proclamations and semi-official publications like the Catechism.

However, having an Index of Prohibited is, as far as I'm concerned, a very different matter. Outright prohibiting the reading of various materials doesn't help anyone in their search for truth. It hinders it. Reading the Qur'an, the Bhagavad Gita, the Dhammpada, or Calvin's Institutes can help clarify one's own identity as a Catholic or a Lutheran just as well, and sometimes better, than merely reading one's own positions. It should come as no surprise, then, that the Index was abolished.

And this is one thing I just can't grasp about Catholicism: an inability to admit mistakes even when those mistakes have been rectified. The Index was abolished? Great, but it was done by the church at some time so it must still be defended. Hus was burned by the Council of Constance for advocating vernacular worship and communion in both bread and wine? Couldn't have been a mistake, even though Vatican II took up both proposals.

One of the marvelous things about Catholicism is it's conservative development: a slow, deliberate, reasoned adaptation over large historical time scales that allows for progressive change but avoids temporary fads. But this exists together with a belief in the infallibility of the church so strong that it simultaneously denies its own strength. By refusing to see that the church has erred, Catholics ignore some of the greater triumphs of Catholicism.

This is less of a problem with the progress has happened within the church itself, as when Trent addressed the problems of corruption in the church, or Vatican II outright accepted proposals by Hus and Luther that were condemned at Trent. Trent and Vatican II can be celebrated. But for those of us left in the historical dust- Lutherans in particular- this feature of Catholicism can seriously impede interchurch relations and attempts at reuniting the Western Church. And I, for one, want that. I want to be Catholic, Roman Catholic, in union with the bishop of Rome and celebrating the liturgy under the auspices of an ordained bishop. But the character of Catholicism has essentially shut off the possibility of union except through submission, and that submission is not to Christ but to mistakes the church has made and, however much they could be admitted if they were purely internal, cannot be admitted in the face of schismatics like myself.
I don't speak for the Church. I speak for myself in this matter and I see merit in forewarning people about whether or not a book teaches heretical material. At least if the person does read that book, then they know to be careful.

I as a catechist have come across so many 'Catholics' who have picked up false understandings of the teaching of the Church because they have read books that claim to be Catholic and yet teach heresy. There are so many books by Catholic authors that claim some position and offer it as a Catholic position or at least acceptable in Catholic theology, but are outright heretical. And people get swept away with this mess.

Most people do not have the theological foundation to easily determine the falsehood of certain positions, and can be led astray. There is a reason why some many heresies over the centuries have been successful in leading 1000s if not millions of people astray, and took centuries to correct.

It is prudent in my opinion for church leaders to forewarn or protect their flock from the books that are wolves in sheep's clothing.
 
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Erose

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What really annoys me, as I've said a number of times now, is that Hus' main points, unlike Luther or Calvin's, were points of practice that Vatican II accepted: communion in both kinds and worship in the vernacular. Today he would be a good Catholic. In the fifteenth century, he was burned under the orders of an "ecumenical" council. Shameful.

And it was not these points that made him a heretic. Let us not forget that he rejected the Sacrament of Reconciliation, that he fell into the old heresy of Donatism, rejection of indulgences, veneration of Saints, elimination of clergy and hierarchy, to name a few. I know that many of these are Protestant beliefs as well; but you also have to understand that these are heretical beliefs to the Catholic Church, and were and continue to be rejected.

I'm not defending his execution, so don't nail me on that, I am pointing out simply that contrary to the claim, Vatican II didn't make the church Husite, as being proposed.
 
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GratiaCorpusChristi

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And it was not these points that made him a heretic. Let us not forget that he rejected the Sacrament of Reconciliation, that he fell into the old heresy of Donatism, rejection of indulgences, veneration of Saints, elimination of clergy and hierarchy, to name a few. I know that many of these are Protestant beliefs as well; but you also have to understand that these are heretical beliefs to the Catholic Church, and were and continue to be rejected.

I'm not defending his execution, so don't nail me on that, I am pointing out simply that contrary to the claim, Vatican II didn't make the church Husite, as being proposed.

I really don't think those accusations are true. Hus did question the sale of indulgences, it's true, but he didn't reject the sacrament outright, nor the veneration of saints, and he certainly didn't advocate the elimination of clergy. As I recall, the charge on clerical matters was his advocacy of eliminating secular power for clergy, not the clergy themselves.

Later, after Hus' death, the Hussites broke up into conservative, moderate, and radical factions. But Hus himself seems to be in strong continuity with both the Catholic Church and the conservative faction.

Hussite - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I'm open to correct on this point, but I'm fairly certain that Hus really only advocated two basic changes: worship in the vernacular and communion in both kinds. It was for the latter reason that they were Utraquists. They even had a chalice as their battle flag because that's what they saw as the big difference (Hussite battle wagons were awesome, btw).
 
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Albion

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I really don't think those accusations are true. Hus did question the sale of indulgences, it's true, but he didn't reject the sacrament outright, nor the veneration of saints, and he certainly didn't advocate the elimination of clergy.

That's right. Most of Erose's litany is simply unrelated to the facts.
 
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Erose

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I really don't think those accusations are true. Hus did question the sale of indulgences, it's true, but he didn't reject the sacrament outright, nor the veneration of saints, and he certainly didn't advocate the elimination of clergy. As I recall, the charge on clerical matters was his advocacy of eliminating secular power for clergy, not the clergy themselves.

Later, after Hus' death, the Hussites broke up into conservative, moderate, and radical factions. But Hus himself seems to be in strong continuity with both the Catholic Church and the conservative faction.

Hussite - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I'm open to correct on this point, but I'm fairly certain that Hus really only advocated two basic changes: worship in the vernacular and communion in both kinds. It was for the latter reason that they were Utraquists. They even had a chalice as their battle flag because that's what they saw as the big difference (Hussite battle wagons were awesome, btw).

Neither one of these were mentioned in the condemnations of Jon Hus at the Council of Constance. Council of Constance 1414-1418 A.D. <16ecume4.htm>

There is a session that does discuss the Bohemians and receiving the Eucharist under both species, but it isn't the condemnation of the practice as an issue, but it is a condemnation of the condemnation by the bohemians of the Church giving the recepiants only the Body, which has been a long standing practice or custom in the West. See session 13 Council of Constance 1414-1418 A.D. <16ecume2.htm>
 
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GratiaCorpusChristi

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Neither one of these were mentioned in the condemnations of Jon Hus at the Council of Constance. Council of Constance 1414-1418 A.D. <16ecume4.htm>

There is a session that does discuss the Bohemians and receiving the Eucharist under both species, but it isn't the condemnation of the practice as an issue, but it is a condemnation of the condemnation by the bohemians of the Church giving the recepiants only the Body, which has been a long standing practice or custom in the West. See session 13 Council of Constance 1414-1418 A.D. <16ecume2.htm>

What people are accused of and what they actually advocate are two very separate things. I've no doubt the council fathers at Constance gravely misunderstood Hus.
 
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Albion

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What people are accused of and what they actually advocate are two very separate things. I've no doubt the council fathers at Constance gravely misunderstood Hus.

Because they more-or-less framed him, do you think that he was mainly a victim of the church's fear that things were beginning to slip out of their control?
 
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Erose

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Hus was at the council if I remember correctly, and if I remember correctly on what I have read is that he didn't challenge the accusations except to ask the council fathers to prove him wrong.

Your right though we weren't there, so we can't know for sure what occurred. But the point needs to be made that he was condemned for what you claimed he was condemned for.
 
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GratiaCorpusChristi

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Because they more-or-less framed him, do you think that he was mainly a victim of the church's fear that things were beginning to slip out of their control?

I think that was absolutely the case. The church was dealing with the Lollards and the Waldensians at the same time as Hus, and they're just finished mopping up the Albigensians. Altogether, I think it was far too easy for them just to lump Hus in with the rest.
 
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Gxg (G²)

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It should also be pointed out the purpose of having a list of banned books in the first place. The Vatican in having this list provided to its members of a list of books that taught heretical positions, and as such it was a warning to them. It isn't as if you read one of these books that you were excommunicated.

The reason why certain Bibles were put on the list is two-fold. 1) some Bibles are not well translated and have false and confusing readings due to the translation. A perfect example of this would be the Jehovah Witness Bible. 2) most bibles even during this period of the advent of the printing press had footnotes, and some of them pretty extensive. These footnotes are used by readers for better clarification of proper reading of passages. Obviously if these footnotes are heretical, then you run the risk of someone being led astray from the truth.

This is not something unique to the Catholic Faith and making such claims is quite dishonest. When I was Pentecostal and Baptist, we were warned about reading certain books, watching certain movies, and listening to certain types of music. At that time I was under the impression, that this was something not unique to these denominations. Granted the UPC did not allow its members to watch TV or Movies at all (which the older I get, I am starting to see that this may be a prudent act).

So if your Church advocates their members to read and watch anything they want without providing some type of advice to its members on what to avoid, quite honestly are you really being prudent toward your parishioners?
Reasonable enough of a perspective, IMHO.
 
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GreekOrthodox

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The reason why certain Bibles were put on the list is two-fold. 1) some Bibles are not well translated and have false and confusing readings due to the translation. A perfect example of this would be the Jehovah Witness Bible. 2) most bibles even during this period of the advent of the printing press had footnotes, and some of them pretty extensive. These footnotes are used by readers for better clarification of proper reading of passages. Obviously if these footnotes are heretical, then you run the risk of someone being led astray from the truth.

One of my favorite Bible versions is "The Adulterer's Bible", where the publisher forgot to include the word "NOT"... Wicked Bible - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

One of the Orthodox Lenten books has a bad printing problem where the Lord's Prayer says "Deliver us FOR evil".
 
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Albion

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It should also be pointed out the purpose of having a list of banned books in the first place. The Vatican in having this list provided to its members of a list of books that taught heretical positions, and as such it was a warning to them. It isn't as if you read one of these books that you were excommunicated.
No, but you did commit a grievous sin--according to the RCC, that is.
 
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Gxg (G²)

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People have a problem of always equating what we have now to another period of time. Thus when they hear that Bibles were chained in the churches, they just assume that the Church just withheld those Bibles and prevented the people from getting their hands on them, because today Bibles are so easy to get. That hasn't always been the case.
].
Ironically...

For all of the claims of "Catholics kept the Bible out of the hands of people!!!", people end up forgetting that having it in the hands of everyone wasn't what happened after the Reformation anyhow - and even so, many Bibles and historical works were BURNED in protests others did toward Catholicism...monasteries destroyed and the poor harmed even further since there was a political side to things no one considered.

For more, one can go to http://catholicdefense.blogspot.com/2014/02/did-luther-want-to-start-his-own-church.html or Library : New Light on Martin Luther - Catholic Culture

As another said on Martin Luther (for brief excerpt):

His principles lead directly to totalitarianism. Luther simply delivered to temporal rulers political despotism over the consciences of men when he delivered religion into the hands of the State. Scherr, in his book "German Culture," p. 260, writes, "Luther was the originator of the doctrine of unconditional surrender to civil power." Nowhere is this clearer than in the history of the Peasants' War. In 1524 the peasants of Germany revolted against oppression by the nobles, and demanded the abolition of serfdom. They were encouraged by revolutionary preachers who advocated the Lutheran doctrine of Christian liberty. But Luther needed the support of the princes, and he urged them to slay the peasants mercilessly. The scandal was enormous, and the feelings of the peasants towards Luther turned to bitter hatred. ...

His very teachings led to greater distress amongst the poor, and hindered all efforts to provide them with relief. The poor had been provided for by the Monasteries, but the princes had confiscated Church property for themselves, leaving the people destitute. And Luther's appeals to his own followers for contributions towards their relief was an utter failure, as he himself had to admit. He had taught that there was no value in good works. He even said, "It is more important to guard against good works than against sin." (Wittenberg Ed., Vol. VI, p. 160.) For Lutherans there was no "Redeem your sins by almsgiving." They had been taught, "There is no longer any sin in the world except unbelief." It was a comfortable doctrine, but no check on human selfishness. Works of charity diminished under the influence of his teachings in marked contrast with their growth wherever the Catholic spirit prevails.


[/INDENT

On other social factors to consider, one can go to http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2012/11/why-the-reformation-happened-when-it-did/

Newspapers and gossip make a difference today - and it was the same then. For if not for the printing press, news of Luther's 95 theses would not have spread as quickly and the Protestant Reformation may never have occurred...but on the same token, many of the false narratives others spread wouldn't have occurred either.

Also, with the Reformation and books, there were several factors that tied things together since Reformation scholars note that four movements of reform in the Church antedated the Protestant Reformation: (1) northern Christian humanism, (2) Spanish clerical reforms, (3) Italian confraternities, and (4) the rigorist movement that called the church back to scholastic theology.​
 
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