What if the end comes?

[Icer757]

I've been a Christian now for over three years. In that time, my entire life has changed. I've become a fuller, more complete person; I've matured and made positive life-changing decisions; I've grown far beyond what I ever thought possible. All of this has been thanks to God. My faith has not and is not half-formed or lacking. I do have a relationship with Christ. I am actively involved in my college ministry. My faith is as real as I can understand it to be. I emphasize this because I need you to understand that I am a believing Christian as you read what I am about to write.

My background before Christianity is nonreligious. I loathed Christians because of my father, and I felt they were a bunch of self-deluded fools because of their beliefs. Though I thought the ideas in Buddhism were neat, I never subscribed to any actual belief system. Then again, at the tender age of 16 beliefs often don't seem to be too terribly important.

Had I not become Christian, I can easily and readily say that I would be an Atheist. Even now, ever since that time, I've been stalked by the tantalizing whispers of non-belief. I don't intend to insinuate some kind of demonic hunt, or attack, I simply mean that the belief has always had a rather strong appeal to me.

I am very science minded. I thirst after knowledge and information. I enjoy puzzles of the mind and thinking in abstraction. I love logic, and I love pursuing the unknown. Cosmology, biology, neuroscience, astronomy, history, mathematics-- These fields are what I thrive on. This is simply who I am. As many of you may know, however, these fields often take a modernistic bent that treads carefully away from Christianity. As such, I spend much of my time in a culture of non-belief.

Now, I'm not questioning my faith. Right now I'm quite happy with where I'm at and enjoy having a personal relationship with Christ. His narrative has been a part of my life for some time now and I can't imagine giving that up.

Unfortunately, my interest in atheism and apologetics has brought me into contact with many people who were once the same way. People who, at one time or another in their lives, fervently believed and had a relationship with Christ. From their reflections and writings, I am unable to dismiss their experiences as a false Christian discipleship. These people truly used to believe and have now "deconverted."

This frightens me; this terrifies me. I look at my life and I easily realize that I can easily be classified as an "at risk" Christian. I believe in Evolution. I accept modern science. Nothing has ever convinced me otherwise: Every argument put against these beliefs has been refuted. My peers, however, do not. My Christian friends and community consist of creationists and those who avoid science because of its "atheist and naturalist agenda." I understand and respect those beliefs-- In the end, salvation gained through faith in Christ is what matters.

But, I read about these deconverts. People who believed for forty, fifty years and suddenly stopped. People just like you and I. What if, at some point in my life, I become like them? What if I lose my belief and turn my back on God and Christ? Through pride, arrogance, or simple apathy? What if it's something more than that? The seeds are here. The tempting whispers are ever-present.

I do not know what advice I can ask for. What prayers I may need. All I know is that I am afraid. Afraid of letting down those in my Bible study, those in my ministry at school, and Christ my God. I am afraid that one day in the future I will lose everything. That I will turn my back on everything I once believed.

That one day I will write Christ off as an unnecessary fiction.

 

[wayseer]

I am very science minded. I thirst after knowledge and information. I enjoy puzzles of the mind and thinking in abstraction. I love logic, and I love pursuing the unknown. Cosmology, biology, neuroscience, astronomy, history, mathematics-- These fields are what I thrive on. This is simply who I am. As many of you may know, however, these fields often take a modernistic bent that treads carefully away from Christianity. As such, I spend much of my time in a culture of non-belief.

Hmm ... You will have to explain what makes science a 'culture of non-belief'.

I am no scientist but from what I do read there are many physicists who do believe in God - not perhaps in a Judeo-Christian way - but who acknowledge that there is 'something' out there.

Unfortunately, my interest in atheism

.... and again you will have to explain how a self-professed Christian is 'interested' in atheism.

These people truly used to believe and have now "deconverted."

... and I'm wondering what made then 'deconvert'. Have you asked them? You might get surprising answers.

This frightens me; this terrifies me.

It may well at the tender age of 20. But God is bigger than that. The hard part is finding that out for yourself.

What if I lose my belief and turn my back on God and Christ?

I think God is sort of used to that - par for the course really. You are learning. Give yourself permission to go into your interest boots and all - while refraining from comparing yourself to others. If God does not want you there you'll get the message.

A man asked the Master. 'What supports the walls of the city'?

'Fear', replied the Master.

'But, what supports the fear'?

'The walls. Fear that you cannot get over the walls of the city'.

... and you really don't have to explain anything to me.

 

[Icer757]

Thank you for your reply, Wayseer.

I don't mean that Science consists of people who reject the possibility of something more. Very devout believers have made wonderful contributions to the construct, as well as helping to develop the scientific method!

For me, it seems that because of the modern interpretation of science that a dichotomy has been created. Those who believe in evolution and seek to understand the fabric of existence, and those who reject evolution and look only to God and scripture. I am aware that this view is a little too black and white, but the communities I find myself in only serve to reinforce the belief. Cosmology is discounted and biology is doubted. I know that not everyone thinks this way, but all the people I look up to as spiritual leaders do. In all honesty, it makes me feel as if my belief and understanding is something to be hidden. I feel like my interests reside in a culture of non-belief.

That's what spurs my "interest" in atheism. I spent some time outside, on the porch, asking myself just what I meant by that. Predictable things like moral freedom came to mind. I rejected that, but a different kind of freedom really hit me dead center: The freedom to believe. To explore. To understand the universe I live in. Atheists, from what I see, live in a community where such exploration is radically encouraged. Most of the Christianity I've been involved with has boundaries and limitations with a warning label slapped on for effect. I really hope that this does not come off as unbelievable arrogance or foolishness-- I truly believe that understanding the universe is glorifying to God.

I've considered, and I think I've found the crux of this problem. I am afraid that my faith will lose the "magic" it once had, like the deconverts I am referring to. That I will become disillusioned with my beliefs. The primary motivator for this fear is the community in which I believe. Because of their beliefs and upbringings, what they know to be true, I often feel like my beliefs need to be hidden. If they come forth, that I need to justify them with "Salvation through faith in Christ is all that matters, anyway."

It's not arrogance or conceit. I don't think I know more than them, or that they're wrong. I don't agree with what they believe regarding fields of science, but I don't belittle them for it. I just worry that some day in the future I will tire of it, for one reason or another.

I hope this makes sense. I probably sound like an egotistical fool. I don't mean to.

 

[Radagast]

I do have a relationship with Christ. I am actively involved in my college ministry.

Glad to hear it!

I am very science minded. I thirst after knowledge and information. I enjoy puzzles of the mind and thinking in abstraction. I love logic, and I love pursuing the unknown. Cosmology, biology, neuroscience, astronomy, history, mathematics-- These fields are what I thrive on. This is simply who I am. As many of you may know, however, these fields often take a modernistic bent that treads carefully away from Christianity. As such, I spend much of my time in a culture of non-belief.

I'm a professional scientist, and I see no conflict between my work and my faith. Some scientists are atheists, true, but fewer than you might think

I am afraid that one day in the future I will lose everything. That I will turn my back on everything I once believed.

Being interested in science doesn't put you at risk ...being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus. (Phil 1:6)

 

[Radagast]

I truly believe that understanding the universe is glorifying to God.

I think Kepler said something similar.

I am afraid that my faith will lose the "magic" it once had

It may do, for a period, because we all have "dry" spells. That won't make it false, though. Read CS Lewis on this -- he's great!

I have days I'm not excited by mathematics. That doesn't stop 2+2=4 being true.

 

[Icer757]

Thank you, Radagast. Mathematics is my chosen area of study at school, and the area I am most passionate about. It's great to hear from you

You're right about the dry spells-- Though I find them discouraging at the time, in the end, the amount they teach me far outweighs the discomfort at the time. I do think you're right about the interest in science.I'm probably just stressing myself out over peer pressure and perceived influences.

 

[Alidar Jarok]

I totally understand where you are at. I was an atheist all my life, my parents taught me that very young, that church was a waste of your Sunday morning, and I never thought twice about it. I was a very intellectual kid, and so I thought I would believe if there was proof, which I would never see any scientific proof, so I never believed. My testimony goes as follows right quick:

I was in college, had been kicked out, got a second chance through appeal, and needed to get good grades in the few classes I retook, so that I could stay in the college. College was all I had going for me, so I was trying really hard not to fail, where I had been lazy before. Well, I completed the term and I was on spring break with my friend (who became my wife later), and I checked on the grades online, and realized I got a "D", which meant I was going to get kicked out of college for good. My wife had taken me to her church the day before, and even though I slept through it and didn't listen to the best of my ability, I think God got into my head and I was thinking about Him, so I went to take a walk, feeling all upset about my grade, and then I just closed my eyes and asked God for a sign. Then when I looked down at the ground, there was a photo on the ground, a picture of someones dining room, with a calendar on the wall that had a picture of Jesus on it. I knew. So I told my wife, she led me in the sinners prayer a day or two later, and I have been saved ever since.

So my atheism made life difficult, but when I got saved, so many great things came around for me! My wife and I started dating, we had our lovely son after we got married, I had a purpose in my life and met great people through our church, we started my computer business, and things have been so great. So basically I'm trying to say that compared to what I was before, all scientific and whatnot, I would never ever go back. I know God exists and that He loves me, because He is in my heart, and that can never change. He takes care of me in ways I could never know or understand, and He is so good...and He has answered so many prayers of mine, I just know and could never turn my back on Him. It's through our faith that we get the ultimate reward in heaven, and I'll never let that go.

 

[Elijah2]

I've been a Christian now for over three years.
I thought I was a Christian when I first came to God in 1957, but it wasn’t until 1991 that I realised to be a Christian you believe in our Lord Jesus Christ, and become a believer, a “born-again” believer.

In that time, my entire life has changed. I've become a fuller, more complete person; I've matured and made positive life-changing decisions; I've grown far beyond what I ever thought possible. All of this has been thanks to God. My faith has not and is not half-formed or lacking. I do have a relationship with Christ. I am actively involved in my college ministry. My faith is as real as I can understand it to be. I emphasize this because I need you to understand that I am a believing Christian as you read what I am about to write.
Okay, so you are telling me that you are a “born-again” Christian, and you fight a good fight of faith, and believe HIS INSPIRED WORD, is that correct?

My background before Christianity is nonreligious. I loathed Christians because of my father, and I felt they were a bunch of self-deluded fools because of their beliefs. Though I thought the ideas in Buddhism were neat, I never subscribed to any actual belief system. Then again, at the tender age of 16 beliefs often don't seem to be too terribly important.
Sad as it is, I’ve found in my ministry the number of Christians who dabbled in the power of darkness and when they came to Christianity they also believer it wasn’t terribly important in dabbling in the kingdom of darkness. They then suffered for a long time until they finally seeked help from the healing and deliverance ministry and they were set free from captivity.

Sorry mate, because I have seen many Christians struggle who were still carrying spiritual garbage around in their lives from past occultic, and other religion’s practices. And after they received healing and deliverance ministry counselling they were set free from the powers of darkness.

Had I not become Christian, I can easily and readily say that I would be an Atheist. Even now, ever since that time, I've been stalked by the tantalizing whispers of non-belief.
Those tantalising whispers come from the powers of darkness through Satan and his forces, and you need to be set straight on the consequences of darkness.

I don't intend to insinuate some kind of demonic hunt, or attack, I simply mean that the belief has always had a rather strong appeal to me.
Well if it has a strong appeal to you, then you need to consider Satan and his forces who already have a leg in your door into your “house”, your “soul”. Read Matthew 12:43-45.

I am talking from experience and ministry.

I am very science minded.
Well this is the first point of entry.

I thirst after knowledge and information.
Well thirst after knowledge and understanding of His Inspired Word, then you will begin to “now the truth, the truth that will set you free from captivity” (John 8:32).

I enjoy puzzles of the mind and thinking in abstraction. I love logic, and I love pursuing the unknown. Cosmology, biology, neuroscience, astronomy, history, mathematics-- These fields are what I thrive on.
All of this knowledge and understanding is interesting, but that is were your problem is, because you are doing all your thinking in your carnal mind, which is Satan’s battleground. You need to start thinking with your spiritual mind, YOUR HEART!

This is simply who I am.
That might be simple to you, but do you know, who you are, and who are you in our Lord Jesus Christ?

As many of you may know, however, these fields often take a modernistic bent that treads carefully away from Christianity.
Sorry mate, because your are being “cheated through philosophy and empty deceit according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world and not according to our Lord Jesus Christ” (See Col. 2:8).

As such, I spend much of my time in a culture of non-belief.
Therefore:

“Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness? And what accord has Christ with Belial? Or what part has a believer with an unbeliever? And what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For you are the temple of the living God. As God has said: ‘I will dwell in them and walk among them. I will be their God, and they shall be My people.’ Therefore ‘Come out from among them and be separate, says the Lord. Do not touch what is unclean, and I will receive you. I will be a Father to you, and you shall be My sons and daughters, says the LORD Almighty.” (2 Cor. 6:14-18)

Now, I'm not questioning my faith.
Well, I am questioning your faith?

Right now I'm quite happy with where I'm at and enjoy having a personal relationship with Christ. His narrative has been a part of my life for some time now and I can't imagine giving that up.
Well, you need to give up all the other “empty deceit” as per Col. 2:8, and false beliefs!

Unfortunately, my interest in atheism and apologetics has brought me into contact with many people who were once the same way. People who, at one time or another in their lives, fervently believed and had a relationship with Christ. From their reflections and writings, I am unable to dismiss their experiences as a false Christian discipleship. These people truly used to believe and have now "deconverted."
Well do you really believe that you should be “unequally yoked with unbelievers” if it’s affecting your REAL walk with our Lord Jesus Christ?

This frightens me; this terrifies me. I look at my life and I easily realize that I can easily be classified as an "at risk" Christian.
So do I!
I believe in Evolution.
First mistake!

I accept modern science.
What---over Biblical truths?

Nothing has ever convinced me otherwise: Every argument put against these beliefs has been refuted. My peers, however, do not. My Christian friends and community consist of creationists and those who avoid science because of its "atheist and naturalist agenda."
I’m sorry mate, if your reject knowledge and understanding, then you will perish (see Hosea 4:6). Mate, if you allow your worldly beliefs override Christian beliefs and His Inspired Word, then you will continue to be seduced and deceived. Sorry mate, but you are “entering the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way, which leads to life, and there are few who find it” (Matt. 7:13-14).

I understand and respect those beliefs-- In the end, salvation gained through faith in Christ is what matters.
Is that so, who said that? It’s walking in obedience and discipline to His Inspired Word, not OSAS!

But, I read about these deconverts. People who believed for forty, fifty years and suddenly stopped. People just like you and I.
Sorry mate, don’t compare yourself with me.

What if, at some point in my life, I become like them?
Mate, you are already at that point!

What if I lose my belief and turn my back on God and Christ?
Mate, you can’t have your feet in two different camps. You have already turned your back on HIM, because you are disputing HIS INSPIRED WORD. Sorry mate, I can’t accept what you are saying.

Through pride, arrogance, or simple apathy?
All!

What if it's something more than that? The seeds are here. The tempting whispers are ever-present.
Mate, all I can say to you is exactly what our Lord Jesus Christ said to me 17 years ago, “CHRISTIAN SET YOURSELF FREE!

I do not know what advice I can ask for.
My advice to you is to get yourself free in our Lord Jesus Christ, get on your knees and confess and repent, asking our Lord Jesus Christ for forgiveness, and start a new relationship with HIM.

What prayers I may need.
Mate, I will definitely pray for your “soul”!

All I know is that I am afraid.
You need to be, because you are out of step with our Lord Jesus Christ.

Afraid of letting down those in my Bible study, those in my ministry at school, and Christ my God.
Well, go and see your pastor and confess, repent and ask HIM for forgiveness.

I am afraid that one day in the future I will lose everything. That I will turn my back on everything I once believed.
Well, I am sorry mate, but you don’t convince me of your belief, because of what you have said.

That one day I will write Christ off as an unnecessary fiction.
That comment is enough to tell me where you are and where are you with our Lord Jesus Christ.

Do you really believe that you are walking with our Lord Jesus Christ?

 

[Icer757]

Alidar Jarok,

Thank you for your response, and thank you for sharing your testimony. I appreciate it, and I am very glad you found Christ and are walking in His ways.



Elijah2,

I understand the intent of your letter: To rebuke and correct. I appreciate its spirit and I am glad you are so fixed upon the Lord.

The information you're working with is incomplete. I can see where you'd jump the gun and leap to conclusions which are a ways from the truth.

You're questioning my faith-- I expected that. I did my best to preclude that reaction with snippets like, "Now, I'm not questioning my faith. Right now I'm quite happy with where I'm at and enjoy having a personal relationship with Christ. His narrative has been a part of my life for some time now and I can't imagine giving that up," as well as trying to appeal through humility. Text doesn't always carry intonation and intent, however. Because I don't believe I can convince you of the veracity of my faith, I will not address your attacks or justify it. Christ has justified me.

Simply put, you are the inspiration behind everything I wrote, Elijah2. Not your belief, not your passion, but your response to what I've written. You're questioning my faith, opposing my beliefs with one liners, and twisting my character and past.

As I wrote,

"In all honesty, it makes me feel as if my belief and understanding is something to be hidden. I feel like my interests reside in a culture of non-belief."

"Most of the Christianity I've been involved with has boundaries and limitations with a warning label slapped on for effect."

"I am afraid that my faith will lose the "magic" it once had, like the deconverts I am referring to. That I will become disillusioned with my beliefs. The primary motivator for this fear is the community in which I believe. Because of their beliefs and upbringings, what they know to be true, I often feel like my beliefs need to be hidden."

"I need you to understand that I am a believing Christian."

Thank you for your response-- Your intent is appreciated.

 

[drich0150]

No matter what you believe (Christianity or Science) you will be required to make a leap of faith. In Christianity there will be certain things reveled to you in your personal walk with the Lord. for some this cements there beliefs, and for others it won't. It all depends on Who is the main focus of your life. If you are, or if your are a slave to your perceived freedoms, then you will find away to adopt a doctrine that will best serve your agendas.

The Religious beliefs of Science and History are the most popular. I refer to these two faiths as such because, In their very nature of their most fundamental "truths" are as illusive as any True Evidence to support any real "scientific discoveries" or true historical facts.

It is said that history is written by the conquerors. Let look at recent history. After WWII we brought to trial Nazi's who tried to wipe out all of the Jews and charged them with war crimes and crimes against humanity, but at the same time the U.S. Fire bombed Japan Killing innocent civilians (Men women and children) by the millions (Up to 100,000 in a signal night) Not to mention the two A-Bombs, And the generals who made these decisions were celebrated as hero's. Why is one general put to death, and another celebrated? Why is one captain sentenced to 20 years hard labor for "Just following orders" when another gets a promotion, and a metal when in the end, the results of their actions had the same out come?
This same kind of behavior is documented back to Ancient Egypt, and is nothing new.


Precious Science doesn't fair much better in the Truth department either. although Science like history is complete with "facts" (just remember facts are statements that can be proved or dis proved. Fact can have very little to nothing to do with the truth.)
In lot of cases recently, Base line scientific Facts have been disproved by yet other facts or "new discovery" I made a few more observations in another post recently, but here, lets look at Dinosaurs. In the 70's & 80's Dino's were "Giant lizards" But after Jurassic park, popular belief swung to the idea that Dino's were more bird like, and soon you started seeing Raptors and other Dino's wrapped with feathers on documentaries and in books. very recently someone discovered a Dino fossil perserved with skin intact. It doesn't look like the "big lizard" or the bird Dinos It has a black and white striped tail and what look like spots and a leathery skin.

I know it's not important what those things looked like, but what is Important is how these "facts" were/are portrayed as truth. Where else has the scientific community taken this liberty? How could anyone ever truly know Unless you started and funded your own Ground up research not relying on anything previously published.

This is what i mean by it takes a leap of faith. Because if something like History (With witnesses present) can be altered to be suited to fit our war hero's stories, How can there be any truth or true accountability in something less than 10% of the population of the world really understands? Our science is what we say it is, unless someone says/proves differently.

So why are some of us so readily willing to believe what ever we are told? One, I think because we equate True scientific discovery like the principles of aviation with that of fools science (Science built on speculation and hypothesis) And, secondly I think because these two Fields of study appeal to one's Vanity of comprehension and understanding of the world we now live in.

Primarily though it's because we are basically slaves to the present we have created these two intuitions to push out what we don't like about God, allowing us to live in the present without consequence or reprisal. Again it all boils down to who you want to worship. If you want to live for self then you will "un-convert" to a religion that pushes God out of the realm of reality, allowing you to do what you will. If you are not apposed to "Die to self" and live your life for another (that being God) then you won't have to worry about the "magic" wearing off. Your relationship will turn from a "fact" based exercise to an expression of love and devotion to the one you have dedicated your life to.

You wanted to know what to pray for? I would pray that God helps you cement your "personal revelations" into a solid foundation in which you can build a life long relationship with him. If you do this, and can weather the comming storms.. Then let the dead bury the Dead, and allow science to dig up who or what they wish.

 

[BigNorsk]

The OP is a very good question. The answer is both very simple and extremely complex, very comforting, and very repugnant.

In order to be protected, you need the foundation, and the foundational truths. People are often so involved in the little things, they don't even realize what their foundation is, much less how unstable it often is.

I would suggest the foundation is the Gospel. Now the shortest form the gospel takes is the doctrine of justification.

We are saved by grace alone, through faith alone, for Christ's sake alone.

If you hold onto that you will be just fine.

Now here comes the part where some people get very offended, the explanation.

Grace alone is God's unmeritted love. If you earn it, it's not grace.

Through faith alone. Faith doesn't save us as such, but we receive God's saving grace through faith. And even faith is a gift. Back to we don't earn it, we don't deserve it.

For Christ's sake alone. Here is were we see the works that save us, they are Christ's works. Here is the reason we are saved, it's because of and for the glory of Christ. If we in some way contribute, then it's not Christ alone. A lot of people drop off Christ alone, either in word or deed.

Hold this tightly and you will be safe.

However, people set themselves on paths that seem at first at least to not violate this, they at least keep the language but it leads them to where they abandon it, often without even realizing it and one day they wake up and their whole belief relies on them, and as such, it's pretty worthless.

One such path that is very common is what is referred to as the "theology of glory" look that up and read about it. It's opposition is the "theology of the cross" which is actually the name of the Lutheran forum in Latin "Theologia crucis".

The basic difference is the theology of glory depends on the person on some level, the theology of the cross depends wholly on Christ. Under the theology of glory, people look to themselves, their works, what they do as the proof that they really believe. People who believe this often produce a lot, they really scurry around and work, they write, they do all sorts of things. Of course one would, because after all, that's the evidence to them that they actually believe, they depend on it.

Whereas the theology of the cross is foolishness to the world. Instead of looking to yourself, and to all the good things you do, you look to a cross, on a hilltop with a beaten tortured person hanging on it. And instead of saying look at all my good things, you look to Christ and what he did.

Now here is why that is so important. Right when you most need assurance, when you are most questioning, most in conflict, what happens to those works you rely on? Well, they are missing, nowhere to be found. You aren't doing them. Instead of holding you and comforting you, instead they actually become a comfirmation that you don't really believe, you aren't really a Christian, it's all been a lie.

But if you cling to the cross, when all else is torn from you, when you have nothing, nothing else, you look up and Christ says to you, my grace is sufficient for you, and he's right, it is.

Amen.

Marv

 

[wayseer]

Thank you for your reply, Wayseer.

Thank you for your considered response - and No, you don't sound like an egotistical fool - more like a very rational and logical person.

And therein lies the rub. I suggest you are using rationality and logic to 'prove' that which evades the best of human attempts to define it. Belief does not operate in that way. I know that having said that, the spectre of ghosts and phantoms generally gets raised. That is not what I mean. It's more a humility - a recognition that while yet voyaging through these worlds we gain a sense of that Grand Design - that which trumps the best endeavours to constrain us within a culture of 'learned forgetfulness'. You suggest as much yourself when your write

I feel like my interests reside in a culture of non-belief.

And here...

Most of the Christianity I've been involved with has boundaries and limitations with a warning label slapped on for effect.

You expose, if indeed such needed exposing, the dead weight of Christian tradition - the culture of 'imposed forgetfulness'. The Church has much to answer for in it's opposition, implied as well as applied, of denigrating the exploring mind which stance still resonates with past practices. And yet again, the Church is proving that the bonds of cultural constrain still construct us in the ways that are intended to serve society - not God. The Church has not been fully convinced that it should embrace science as if, to do so, would lead to its own contamination and eventual loss of faith. All of which proves the inherent 'lack of faith' by those who claim they are worthy of the title of 'leader'.

But that is not your fault.

The fact is the Church has been held together by those Saints who 'experience' God. And among these were many noted scientists, mathematicians, doctors.

You claim that the crux of the matter for you is

I am afraid that my faith will lose the "magic" it once had

It may - for a time. But that 'magic' is something which you can hold on to - it will resurface after all the voyaging is done.

Yet I suspect that this may be the real crux of the matter

If they come forth, that I need to justify them with "Salvation through faith in Christ is all that matters, anyway."

There is a time for silence. (In fact, silence is all but drown out by a Church that is busy with all the toing and froing that goes on trying to justify itself - to itself). You don't need to confess you faith at every turn. Nor do you need to feel that any worthwhile embrace of science on your part will some condemn you to hell. You are feeling some cultural pressure which comes with the turf - that's all.

Learn the habits a stream as it moves round boulders and obstacles on its path to the sea.

 

[Icer757]

drich0150,

You are very right about science and history requiring faith (or being biased). In mathematics, we use axioms that we must take on faith to be true. They are properties that we observe to be true, so we use them. We don't actually prove them, we just assume them. As such, all of mathematics must be taken on faith. I also agree with you about how science constantly fluctates. That is its nature: It is self correcting. The best interpretation at the time is assumed and when new information comes to life it is immediately integrated. Facts are facts. Some people, though, like Richard Dawkins, presume paint those facts with their on philosophical flair, which I intensely disagree with.

In the end, I am not having a conflict between Science and Faith. I came to a conclusion on that front a long time ago, and have written a number of essays. I see no contradiction between the two, and, truly, I believe they enliven one another in wonderful ways.

The point of what I wrote, which I realized through writing and responding in this thread, was not the science, or the faith, or any potential conflict. It was my scientific beliefs in my community of faith. The concern grows from my fear that someday I'll grow tired of how some members of my community view my beliefs and interests, and through that my faith will lose its magic.




BigNorsk,

I vehemently agree with your post. The foundations are absolutely VITAL, and, to be honest, most of what God taught me last year. In the end, only He matters, and my beliefs and interactions should be based on His foundations-- They NEED to be on His foundation. If they aren't, well, I'm building my house on the sand.

Clinging to the cross is something I always need to remind myself of every now and then. During the summer it's always a need. Whenever I return to that commitment to Christ I always feel about a thousand times more alive and ready to seek Him. Even now, that's a process that's going on in me.

Thankfully, right now I am not experiencing a conflict of faith. I am just afraid that someday I will grow tired of the community with which I am involved, and that through that my faith will lose its "magic" and I will forget the Cross. It's just that, though, a concern for the future. Not now.

Regardless, thank you very much for you input.




Wayseer,

Thank you once again for an excellent response.

You are completely correct about the true crux of the matter. I wasn't able to completely identify it myself until I began this thread, but now I see it quite clearly.

This has been weighing on me for some time, since I started getting involved with ministry my Freshman year, and has caused me much stress. I am afraid that one day I will grow so tired of my community and its views that all the "magic" will simply disappear. That through the loss and my disillusionment of my community that my faith will be damaged in turn. You are right.

I really appreciate your advice and encouragement. In all honesty, it's what I think I really needed to hear. Validation for my feelings and a reminder that it, for the most part, shouldn't be made an issue. I think I just need to grow up a little and realize that sometimes I need to just learn to navigate my way around pitfalls in life instead of pointing them out and crying "No fair!" I'm sure that will take time, but some of the really good lessons take a little while to absorb.

 

[drich0150]

The concern grows from my fear that someday I'll grow tired of how some members of my community view my beliefs and interests, and through that my faith will lose its magic.

That is a great introspective observation. Just know though, that when we live approval of others, or have a need for others to have a tolerant understanding, or even just an understanding of not only what we believe, but who we are because of it.. We are doomed to allow the sand in our hour glass of faith to all run out. The only real solution here is to shift focus from us/our needs to serving the needs, wants or will of God. This is what we were ultimately designed for. In full filling your "destiny" You will find a new "magic" that has no limit.

I can't tell you what it is, or how you are to fill your function as a member of the body. Just know you have a place there somewhere, and sometimes the journey to find your niche in of itself will alleviate alot of the anxiety spurred on by the dwindling "New car smell" of christianity.

If you seek direction Goto the source in prayer.

 

[Maranatha27]

Hi, I can agree with some of the other previous posters and say that I am not a scientist. I can say though that I am well schooled in the Word though, and my teacher is the Holy Spirit.

I disagree stongly that a person can become a genuine Christian and then as you expressed defect for the faith. There is no evidence in the Word to back such a case, but on the contrary. The Holy Spirit seals the believer untill the day of redemption. A seal is place by an owner upon what is his. hence we are sealed with the Holy Spirit. A person can have and intelectual understand in their mind, accept it as historically true and remain unsaved. The message never penetrates the heart, the second birth never takes place, its sad but true. Now when a christian strays from the path, discipline is the clear remedy meeted out by the Father. If A so called christian is well of the path and everything is fine and dandy, its because hes not a christian.

Heb 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
[7] If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
[8] But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons

Now don't get me wrong I'm not saying you are not a son, what I am pointing out is that you are ethier ignorant of the Word, or to not belive the Bible is the Word of God. I gathered that from the things you mentioned,that have your attention, they are expressedly forbidden by the Spirit. I like how the beloved apostle John spoke about these defectors that eventually leave the christian company

1 John 1:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

As for me, I believe in creation, I believe that the world is the 15 billion or so years that science says it is. I do not though believe that I came from a monkey, But believe what the Lord Jesus Christ confirmed

Matt 19:4 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female

I stand with Christ on this one, your stance is with man. Did Christ err with this statement?

Its the Spirit that quickeneth, the flesh profiteth nothing. Are you sealed..... if yes you have nothing to worry about

 

[squeehunter]

I am in the same boat as you Icer757. I use science to see God and what he has done. Just go outside and think "This is all God's work."