What if racism is an evolutionary response?

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

... We stopped punishment...

Really? This from the country with the highest incarceration rate in the world (2015)?

The US held 21.0% of the world's prisoners in 2015, even though the US represented only around 4.4% of the world's population in 2015...[Wikipedia]

The figures suggest that, in general, the less punitive the society, the lower the crime rate and levels of recidivism.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Really? This from the country with the highest incarceration rate in the world (2015)?

The US held 21.0% of the world's prisoners in 2015, even though the US represented only around 4.4% of the world's population in 2015...[Wikipedia]

The figures suggest that, in general, the less punitive the society, the lower the crime rate and levels of recidivism.

Sure. If you don't lock someone up the first time they can't be recidivist.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

Sure. If you don't lock someone up the first time they can't be recidivist.

No, I mean recidivism (reoffending) of ex-inmates.

 

[dlamberth]

Really? This from the country with the highest incarceration rate in the world (2015)?

The US held 21.0% of the world's prisoners in 2015, even though the US represented only around 4.4% of the world's population in 2015...[Wikipedia]

The figures suggest that, in general, the less punitive the society, the lower the crime rate and levels of recidivism.

I think the high incarceration rate in America also suggests a high poverty rate as well. And it also suggest a need for a reformed justice system.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

No, I mean recidivism (reoffending) of ex-inmates.

That's what I was addressing. The hue and cry is that we are locking up too many people, and the recidivism rate is high. If we don't lock them up they can't REoffend.

Much recidivism is predictable. Sadly there's no legal mechanism to deal with it.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

I think the high incarceration rate in America also suggests a high poverty rate as well. And it also suggest a need for a reformed justice system.

We need longer sentences with better rehabilitation programs. Offenders should leave prison with an education, a marketable skill, and a good attitude.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

The arguments could be reversed however, why do/must African-Americans reject the wider American culture around them? Why must that wider American culture and/or people be forced to change to suit the whims of others, is that not a coercive and racist thing to do?

There is a lot of black racism toward other ethnicities here. They only get a pass because they are a minority.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

That's what I was addressing. The hue and cry is that we are locking up too many people, and the recidivism rate is high. If we don't lock them up they can't REoffend.

Much recidivism is predictable. Sadly there's no legal mechanism to deal with it.

Of course they can reoffend if they're not locked up - they can do it sooner too!

My point is that in societies where the system is minimally punitive, incarceration is also minimally punitive - it's typically rehabilitative (I don't mean the kind of forcible 're-education' as practised by China on the Uighurs), I'm thinking of Norway as a real example, and their recidivism rates are exceptionally low, whether incarceration is imposed or not ...

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Of course they can reoffend if they're not locked up - they can do it sooner too!

My point is that in societies where the system is minimally punitive, incarceration is also minimally punitive - it's typically rehabilitative (I don't mean the kind of forcible 're-education' as practised by China on the Uighurs), I'm thinking of Norway as a real example, and their recidivism rates are exceptionally low, whether incarceration is imposed or not ...

I like the Norway model. We should do that.

 

[Aussie Pete]

Yeah, I can tell that you're not someone who I can have an actual discussion with. I'm putting you onto my ignore list.

Promise?

 

[Aussie Pete]

Actually if the death of lots of people relieves overpopulation it is good for those who remain.

Sure, and that is another reason why I reject evolution. Many human responses make zero sense if evolution is true.

 

[Speedwell]

Sure, and that is another reason why I reject evolution. Many human responses make zero sense if evolution is true.

What makes zero sense is your post--just like the one that said moral behavior is impossible if evolution is true.

 

[Tinker Grey]

Sure, and that is another reason why I reject evolution. Many human responses make zero sense if evolution is true.

"I don't understand, therefore I understand."

 

[pitabread]

Many human responses make zero sense if evolution is true.

Such as?

 

[Aussie Pete]

Zackly. Racism is learned, not taught.

There is a deep rooted, sinful attitude that "our" ways are better than anyone else's. Racism is simply the outworking of that. No one teaches children to pick on those who are different. They have to be taught to be tolerant. That should no be necessary, but it is.

 

[RDKirk]

Suspicion of "the other" may be evolutionary, but the definition of "the other" is purely cultural.

Ancient Roman citizens, for instance, didn't have a problem with anyone who was a Roman citizen, regardless of skin color, and barbarians might also come in any skin color.

 

[Aussie Pete]

Such as?

Providing vaccines in a pandemic (not just Corona). Surely it's nature's way of population control?
Providing humanitarian aid to those in need. Population control again
Pandering to the disabled. In nature, genetic defects don't get the opportunity to be passed on.
Biological diversity. Who cares? In Australia, the discovery of a lesser spotted frogwort can stop a billion dollar mine. Why bother about feral creatures? They are surviving way better than the local critters. So the ferals are simply better suited to the environment. How can that be? Surely critters that have been here for millions of years are better adapted? It seems not.

 

[pitabread]

Providing vaccines in a pandemic (not just Corona). Surely it's nature's way of population control?
Providing humanitarian aid to those in need. Population control again
Pandering to the disabled. In nature, genetic defects don't get the opportunity to be passed on.
Biological diversity. Who cares? In Australia, the discovery of a lesser spotted frogwort can stop a billion dollar mine. Why bother about feral creatures? They are surviving way better than the local critters. So the ferals are simply better suited to the environment. How can that be? Surely critters that have been here for millions of years are better adapted? It seems not.

I feel like you're again viewing science through the lens of being prescriptive (as opposed to descriptive), and it's leading you to completely incorrect assumptions and conclusions.

The science of evolution is not about dictating human behaviors.

 

[Aussie Pete]

"I don't understand, therefore I understand."
Evolution is nonsense when you look at human behaviour:

Providing vaccines in a pandemic (not just Corona). Surely it's nature's way of population control?
Providing humanitarian aid to those in need. Population control again.

Pandering to the disabled. In nature, genetic defects don't get the opportunity to be passed on.

Biological diversity. Who cares? In Australia, the discovery of a lesser spotted frogwort can stop a billion dollar mine. Why bother about feral creatures? They are surviving way better than the local critters. So the ferals are simply better suited to the environment. How can that be? Surely critters that have been here for millions of years are better adapted? It seems not.

Now I do not propose that we deny vaccines to the poor, terminate pregnancies if the baby has a genetic defect, sterilise women or men with defective genes or allow unfettered development at the cost of the environment. But such things are logical if evolution is true.

 

[Aussie Pete]

I feel like you're again viewing science through the lens of being prescriptive (as opposed to descriptive), and it's leading you to completely incorrect assumptions and conclusions.

The science of evolution is not about dictating human behaviors.

If evolution is correct then human behaviours will follow evolutionary principles. How can it be otherwise? Animals operate on instinct. No one expects mercy from a Tiger. Humans have logic, reason, conscience, a sense of justice and fair play. Yes, that's not all there is. There is hatred, vengefulness, selfishness etc. as well. How do such characteristics evolve? Answer: they do not.