What if I am not strong enough????

[NJBeliever]

Peace to you...

I HAVE ASKED YOU TO DO THIS ONCE BEFORE...PROVE IT!

I must have missed this question. I can prove it but it will make no difference. Everyone is just dug into their rapture position like it's a sports team and to be frank, discussing the rapture is like my least favorite topic in all Biblical discussion. It's just played out. There are many, many refutations of the post-trib model. I made 5 threads posting them individually and do not see you commenting in any.

You should not have the brass to make that statement as fact to Katrina...to feed the false hope that already has her so confused...so unprepared in her heart and mind to just simply learn what she must do when she doesn't fly away some day...lots can happen when you're waiting for something 'to happen' that 'will never happen'...ya think??

It's not false hope. Jesus is the blessed hope. If you would just sit back and look at the Biblical purpose of what Jesus did for us, beyond eternal life. We have the exact same standing legally through his death and resurrection. We are literally co-heirs. We are not going to be subject to God's global wrath.

You can't and never even tried to prove the truth of "Don't worry. You won't be here for it."...I challenged people like you to prove what you believe to be true through the Word of God...on the "Do you want to "be taken" or "left behind"? thread...DID YOU?...NO!

Why all the hostility? I do not post on here as much as I have in the past, so I apologize if I missed you thread. But I gave my reasons in my post to Katrina that we will not be here for the Great Tribulation/Day of The Lord. There are no judgments sent from God to the world that His believers had to suffer. None in the Bible. If you have one to share, I'm all ears.

Saved Christians, do not be afraid! We are not going to be here for the Great Tribulation. This is the entire purpose of the Rapture.

 

[NightHawkeye]

Saved Christians, do not be afraid! We are not going to be here for the Great Tribulation. This is the entire purpose of the Rapture.

NJBeliever, there is a difference between not experienceing the Great Tribulation and not being here. To wit:

Look at what scripture says:

Isaiah 26:17 Like as a woman with child, that draweth near the time of her delivery, is in pain, and crieth out in her pangs; so have we been in thy sight, O LORD.
18 We have been with child, we have been in pain, we have as it were brought forth wind; we have not wrought any deliverance in the earth; neither have the inhabitants of the world fallen.
19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.
20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.
21 For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.
​

Scripture clearly says "shut thy doors ... until the indignation be overpast". OT precedents tell the same story. God's people stay inside while the tempest comes through. God's people are unscathed, but present nonetheless.

Just the TRUTH ...


.

 

[NJBeliever]

how'd ya miss this one?

1And when the people saw that Moses delayed to come down out of the mount, the people gathered themselves together unto Aaron, and said unto him, Up, make us gods, which shall go before us; for as for this Moses, the man that brought us up out of the land of Egypt, we wot not what is become of him.
2And Aaron said unto them, Break off the golden earrings, which are in the ears of your wives, of your sons, and of your daughters, and bring them unto me.
3And all the people brake off the golden earrings which were in their ears, and brought them unto Aaron.
4And he received them at their hand, and fashioned it with a graving tool, after he had made it a molten calf: and they said, These be thy gods, O Israel, which brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.
5And when Aaron saw it, he built an altar before it; and Aaron made proclamation, and said, To morrow is a feast to the LORD.
6And they rose up early on the morrow, and offered burnt offerings, and brought peace offerings; and the people sat down to eat and to drink, and rose up to play.
7And the LORD said unto Moses, Go, get thee down; for thy people, which thou broughtest out of the land of Egypt, have corrupted themselves:
8They have turned aside quickly out of the way which I commanded them: they have made them a molten calf, and have worshipped it, and have sacrificed thereunto, and said, These be thy gods, O Israel, which have brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.
9And the LORD said unto Moses, I have seen this people, and, behold, it is a stiffnecked people:
10Now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may wax hot against them, and that I may consume them: and I will make of thee a great nation.
11And Moses besought the LORD his God, and said, LORD, why doth thy wrath wax hot against thy people, which thou hast brought forth out of the land of Egypt with great power, and with a mighty hand?
12Wherefore should the Egyptians speak, and say, For mischief did he bring them out, to slay them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth? Turn from thy fierce wrath, and repent of this evil against thy people.
13Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, thy servants, to whom thou swarest by thine own self, and saidst unto them, I will multiply your seed as the stars of heaven, and all this land that I have spoken of will I give unto your seed, and they shall inherit it for ever.
14And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.
15And Moses turned, and went down from the mount, and the two tables of the testimony were in his hand: the tables were written on both their sides; on the one side and on the other were they written.
16And the tables were the work of God, and the writing was the writing of God, graven upon the tables.
17And when Joshua heard the noise of the people as they shouted, he said unto Moses, There is a noise of war in the camp.
18And he said, It is not the voice of them that shout for mastery, neither is it the voice of them that cry for being overcome: but the noise of them that sing do I hear.
19And it came to pass, as soon as he came nigh unto the camp, that he saw the calf, and the dancing: and Moses' anger waxed hot, and he cast the tables out of his hands, and brake them beneath the mount.
20And he took the calf which they had made, and burnt it in the fire, and ground it to powder, and strawed it upon the water, and made the children of Israel drink of it.
21And Moses said unto Aaron, What did this people unto thee, that thou hast brought so great a sin upon them?
22And Aaron said, Let not the anger of my lord wax hot: thou knowest the people, that they are set on mischief.
23For they said unto me, Make us gods, which shall go before us: for as for this Moses, the man that brought us up out of the land of Egypt, we wot not what is become of him.
24And I said unto them, Whosoever hath any gold, let them break it off. So they gave it me: then I cast it into the fire, and there came out this calf.
25And when Moses saw that the people were naked; (for Aaron had made them naked unto their shame among their enemies
26Then Moses stood in the gate of the camp, and said, Who is on the LORD's side? let him come unto me. And all the sons of Levi gathered themselves together unto him.
27And he said unto them, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbour.
28And the children of Levi did according to the word of Moses: and there fell of the people that day about three thousand men.
29For Moses had said, Consecrate yourselves today to the LORD, even every man upon his son, and upon his brother; that he may bestow upon you a blessing this day.
30And it came to pass on the morrow, that Moses said unto the people, Ye have sinned a great sin: and now I will go up unto the LORD; peradventure I shall make an atonement for your sin.
31And Moses returned unto the LORD, and said, Oh, this people have sinned a great sin, and have made them gods of gold.
32Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written.
33And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.
34Therefore now go, lead the people unto the place of which I have spoken unto thee: behold, mine Angel shall go before thee: nevertheless in the day when I visit I will visit their sin upon them.
35And the LORD plagued the people, because they made the calf, which Aaron made.

Zeke -- Once again, I respect you because you present clear scriptural support for your point. But here I have to completely disagree with you.

This entire passage is pretty much supporting my point. God was so angry at the rebellion of those Israelites who made the calf that He was going to destroy ALL of Israel and start a new nation with Moses as the Father of it instead of Abraham. But Moses pleaded for the Israelites and God changed His mind. Instead only a plague came down on the people who sinned. Moses specifically requests to not only be punished but to be damned! But God states that only those who sinned against Him with the golden calf will be "blotted out." The punishment to be dealt out was specifically targeted at the HEATHENS among the camp. Their sin will be visited upon them. Even Aaron is not punished, and he made the calf.

Never confuse "Israelite" with "Believer." An Israelite is a believe by faith, not birth. There were many Israelites who did not have faith in God and went to hell. The ones who demanded the calf and performed pagan rituals were obviously not of the faith, hence their plagues. I still do not see one example of a believer actually suffering from divine supernatural judgment poured out by God alongside unbelievers. God bless bro.

 

[NJBeliever]

NJBeliever, there is a difference between not experienceing the Great Tribulation and not being here. To wit:

Look at what scripture says:

Isaiah 26:17 Like as a woman with child, that draweth near the time of her delivery, is in pain, and crieth out in her pangs; so have we been in thy sight, O LORD.
18 We have been with child, we have been in pain, we have as it were brought forth wind; we have not wrought any deliverance in the earth; neither have the inhabitants of the world fallen.
19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.
20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.
21 For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.
​

Scripture clearly says "shut thy doors ... until the indignation be overpast". OT precedents tell the same story. God's people stay inside while the tempest comes through. God's people are unscathed, but present nonetheless.

Just the TRUTH ...


.

How do you reconcile this verse with this:

Revelation 13:7And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them:

Revelation 20:4... and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads
Which is it? That believers during the Great Trib are "unscathed" (to use your exact interpretation of Scripture) or that they are vanquished and murdered by the Beast?

 

[NightHawkeye]

How do you reconcile this verse with this:

OK. I'm game ... you can't refute scripture I posted, but ask me to refute yours. OK ... I'm game.

Revelation 13:7And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them:

Personally, I don't see much needing to be reconciled. The very next verse answers the concern.

Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. 9 If any man have an ear, let him hear. 10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.
​

It doesn't say that all worship the beast, only those not found in the book of life. It doesn't say that all go into captivity. It doesn't say that all are killed with the sword.

Revelation 20:4... and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads

Personally, I don't see much needing to be reconciled here either. It doesn't say that all died. Consider the rest of the verse ...

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
​

The verse speaks only of those who died. Those who died, then reign with Christ a thousand years. Who do they reign over? They reign over those who didn't die.

Which is it? That believers during the Great Trib are "unscathed" (to use your exact interpretation of Scripture) or that they are vanquished and murdered by the Beast?

Consider the following verses. Some endure tribulation and die ...

Rev 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life. 11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
​

Some don't ...

Rev 3:7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;
8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name. 9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee. 10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. 11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown. 12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name. 13 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
​

.

 

[Almighty's humble servant]

I must have missed this question. I can prove it but it will make no difference. Everyone is just dug into their rapture position like it's a sports team and to be frank, discussing the rapture is like my least favorite topic in all Biblical discussion. It's just played out. There are many, many refutations of the post-trib model. I made 5 threads posting them individually and do not see you commenting in any.




It's not false hope. Jesus is the blessed hope. If you would just sit back and look at the Biblical purpose of what Jesus did for us, beyond eternal life. We have the exact same standing legally through his death and resurrection. We are literally co-heirs. We are not going to be subject to God's global wrath.



Why all the hostility? I do not post on here as much as I have in the past, so I apologize if I missed you thread. But I gave my reasons in my post to Katrina that we will not be here for the Great Tribulation/Day of The Lord. There are no judgments sent from God to the world that His believers had to suffer. None in the Bible. If you have one to share, I'm all ears.

Saved Christians, do not be afraid! We are not going to be here for the Great Tribulation. This is the entire purpose of the Rapture.

Brother NJ,

It is not about God's Judgment or about His Wrath. It is about Shadrach Meshach and Abendago. It is about Daniel. It is about the apostles. It is about the prophets.

No, not all of God's children throughout history had to make the choice. But WE, in this generation, WILL.

Will we stand strong against the evil that is to arise. Or will we fall to our own lusts and desires, keeping our earthly possessions in exchange for our loyalties.

The Lord has prepared a place for us in the wilderness. This He has promised, and if we trust in Him, He will lead us to that place, and show us the hidden manna. As for our enemies, we will be invisible to them, as our forefather Abraham was.

But, like those aforementioned, we will have to choose. Should we then begin to think that our furnace or our lion's den or our cross does not await because we believe in the One True and ALmighty God, His Son, and the coming Day of Judgment? Should we begin to think that because there are 2 or 3 passages that say we are not appointed wrath, that we will not have to endure?

The Lord led Noah to prepare for the flood. He led Lot out of Sodom, He led Moses and the Israelites out of Egypt, and He stood there with the brothers as they faced a fiery death. He will lead us and stand with us, just as He has always done.

Yes there will be millions who perish in what is coming. Yes, there will be millions deceived. Yes, there will be millions who pray for death and will not find it. But let no man be deceived. We WILL face the hour of temptation, and we will face GREAT tribulation.

 

[NightHawkeye]

The Lord has prepared a place for us in the wilderness.

Rev 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
...
13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child. 14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.


.
​

 

[NJBeliever]

OK. I'm game ... you can't refute scripture I posted, but ask me to refute yours. OK ... I'm game.

It's not a game. Those verses refute your Biblical interpretation as I will show you below.

Personally, I don't see much needing to be reconciled. The very next verse answers the concern.

Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. 9 If any man have an ear, let him hear. 10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.
​

It doesn't say that all worship the beast, only those not found in the book of life. It doesn't say that all go into captivity. It doesn't say that all are killed with the sword.

See you have to do this because the verse refutes your interpretation:

You said: "God's people are unscathed"

The Bible says:
Revelation 13:7And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them:

This means your interpretation of the Isaiah 26 passage is incorrect as God's people are clearly going to be harmed, attacked and defeated by the antichrist.

Personally, I don't see much needing to be reconciled here either. It doesn't say that all died. Consider the rest of the verse ...

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
​

The verse speaks only of those who died. Those who died, then reign with Christ a thousand years. Who do they reign over? They reign over those who didn't die.

Once again, you have to skip over the verse I cite because it refutes your interpretation.

You said: "God's people are unscathed"

The Bible says:


Revelation 20:4... and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus,

Again, Christians are going to be beheaded during the time of the Great Tribulation. Thus they are not "unscathed" which means 100%, without question, your interpretation of the Isaiah 26 passage is incorrect. I don't know how much more plainly it can be explained.

Consider the following verses. Some endure tribulation and die ...

Rev 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life. 11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
​

Some don't ...

Rev 3:7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;
8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name. 9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee. 10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. 11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown. 12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name. 13 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
​

.

In this passage you are confusing "tribulation", which ALL Christians throughout history face (John 6:33 proves this) with the Great Tribulation which is a singular event as described by Jesus as the worst time in the history of the planet. In fact, Revelation 3:10 only proves that certain questions will in fact be completely protected from this Great Tribulation. And that is the purpose of the rapture. Or one of the purposes anyway as it also serves for the calling of the Assembly of the True Church in Heaven for Consecration and the Marriage Supper of the Lamb.

Your Isaiah passage is speaking of the end times Great Tribulation. But the chamber that we will be shut in are the mansions that Jesus is preparing for us in Heaven. That is where the raptured church will be during the Great Tribulation. We are to wait for the indignation (Great Tribulation) to end before we come out again (The Second Coming).
19Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.
20Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.
21For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.


The Day of the Lord is judgment against the HEATHEN, not the Believer! Any other interpretation twists Scripture. Once again, Christians have nothing to fear. We won't be here! Yes, I am proclaiming it once again.

 

[NightHawkeye]

It's not a game. Those verses refute your Biblical interpretation as I will show you below.

... sigh ...

See you have to do this because the verse refutes your interpretation:

Instead of focusing on the exact words I used, focus on scripture, NJBeliever. My exact words are unimportant.

The Bible says:
Revelation 13:7And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them:

This means your interpretation of the Isaiah 26 passage is incorrect as God's people are clearly going to be harmed, attacked and defeated by the antichrist.

Just as you didn't like my choice of words, NJBeliever, your own choice of words is an inaccurate reflection of scripture.

In this passage you are confusing "tribulation", which ALL Christians throughout history face (John 6:33 proves this) with the Great Tribulation which is a singular event as described by Jesus as the worst time in the history of the planet. In fact, Revelation 3:10 only proves that certain questions will in fact be completely protected from this Great Tribulation. And that is the purpose of the rapture. Or one of the purposes anyway as it also serves for the calling of the Assembly of the True Church in Heaven for Consecration and the Marriage Supper of the Lamb.

Choose to reinterpret to your personal satisfaction, NJBeliever. Personally, I tend to take it at face value.

Your Isaiah passage is speaking of the end times Great Tribulation. But the chamber that we will be shut in are the mansions that Jesus is preparing for us in Heaven. That is where the raptured church will be during the Great Tribulation. We are to wait for the indignation (Great Tribulation) to end before we come out again (The Second Coming).

OK. I understand how you came to that interpretation. I don't believe that's what Isaiah is saying there though.


Just my $0.02.


.

 

[cf4rc]

Hey guys...I just realized what we are doing with this discussion...

That I'm afraid I started...with my little tirade...

I am sorry to all but especially to Katrina...

We are putting Katrina through the same thing that upset her in the first place...the first post I read of hers was talking about all she had read, about 15 pages, on this issue and all it did was cause confusion for her...

So, please, as of now let's drop it and discuss this somewhere else unless Katrina wants to discuss it too...I personally am getting my pride out of the way and deleting the argumentative post I am sorry I have made to NJBeliever...and I recommend that all posts pertaining to pre-trib or not after that be deleted too...

Other posts not concentrating on this issue, as I read them again...seemed to be generally giving some good advise...which is what Katrina is looking for...

Please consider this request...unless Katrina says otherwise...

peace and love...God Bless

 

[cf4rc]

Can everyone be supportive, keep their opinions to themselves and get back to the OP please.

Oh yeah...

Missed this post somehow...

Exactly what I meant...but you said it in a much simpler and clearer way for all to see...

Ha, "gracechick" fits you quite well...I would say!!!

Let's all PAY ATTENTION to what the lady has said here...
OK?...OK!

thank you for the great advise...peace and love...God Bless

 

[Partaker of Christ]

I had such un-shakable faith as a child and a teenager and it wasn't until here recently that I have begun a walk again with Jesus, but I am still so unsure of many things

What if my faith never becomes strong enough? I feel so lost right now - like I said before, everything I came to know and am still being taught today may or may not be true.

How do I go against what I have thought was of God? What if I fail during the tribulation and am not brave enough when faced with true evil?

I know...it sounds like a rant of a crazy woman - I am not though, just a little freaked out and still trying to find myself.

Kat

Hi Kat!

Joel:
Joel 2:32 For it shall be, all who shall call on the name of Jehovah shall be saved.

Peter:
Act 2:21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Paul:
Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

The Lord has told us this three times. I guess He want us to get the message!!

If you are looking at your own strength, then see my signature!

 

[zeke37]

Zeke -- Once again, I respect you because you present clear scriptural support for your point. But here I have to completely disagree with you.
This entire passage is pretty much supporting my point. God was so angry at the rebellion of those Israelites who made the calf that He was going to destroy ALL of Israel and start a new nation with Moses as the Father of it instead of Abraham. But Moses pleaded for the Israelites and God changed His mind. Instead only a plague came down on the people who sinned. Moses specifically requests to not only be punished but to be damned! But God states that only those who sinned against Him with the golden calf will be "blotted out." The punishment to be dealt out was specifically targeted at the HEATHENS among the camp. Their sin will be visited upon them. Even Aaron is not punished, and he made the calf.

27And he said unto them, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbour.
28And the children of Levi did according to the word of Moses: and there fell of the people that day about three thousand men.

35And the LORD plagued the people, because they made the calf, which Aaron made.

Never confuse "Israelite" with "Believer." An Israelite is a believe by faith, not birth. There were many Israelites who did not have faith in God and went to hell.

went to hell? i guess that is a topic for another thread.

The ones who demanded the calf and performed pagan rituals were obviously not of the faith, hence their plagues. I still do not see one example of a believer actually suffering from divine supernatural judgment poured out by God alongside unbelievers. God bless bro.

9And the LORD said unto Moses, I have seen this people, and, behold, it is a stiffnecked people:
10Now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may wax hot against them, and that I may consume them: and I will make of thee a great nation.
11And Moses besought the LORD his God, and said, LORD,why doth thy wrath wax hot against thy people, which thou hast brought forth out of the land of Egypt with great power, and with a mighty hand?

remember that only 2 people out of an estimated 2-3 million that started the treck,
made it to the promised land.

the rest were killed off on the way there...


and just a simple fact...they were not heathen,
because they believed in YHVH, listened to His spokesmen Moses and Arron,
avoided the plagues of God sent to Egypt, even while they were right there in the midst of it,
put the blood on the lamb doorposts, for the Passover...

these are fact.

 

[zeke37]

I must have missed this question. I can prove it but it will make no difference. Everyone is just dug into their rapture position like it's a sports team and to be frank, discussing the rapture is like my least favorite topic in all Biblical discussion. It's just played out. There are many, many refutations of the post-trib model. I made 5 threads posting them individually and do not see you commenting in any.




It's not false hope. Jesus is the blessed hope. If you would just sit back and look at the Biblical purpose of what Jesus did for us, beyond eternal life. We have the exact same standing legally through his death and resurrection. We are literally co-heirs. We are not going to be subject to God's global wrath.



Why all the hostility? I do not post on here as much as I have in the past, so I apologize if I missed you thread. But I gave my reasons in my post to Katrina that we will not be here for the Great Tribulation/Day of The Lord. There are no judgments sent from God to the world that His believers had to suffer. None in the Bible. If you have one to share, I'm all ears.

Saved Christians, do not be afraid! We are not going to be here for the Great Tribulation. This is the entire purpose of the Rapture.

you said you don't wanna discuss it, yet you do.
least favorite subject, yet, you sign off with "we're not gonna be here"

i'd reword it slightly tho.

Saved Christians, do not be afraid! We are going to be here for the Great Tribulation. This is the entire purpose of the Rapture.

if you stay faithful through the test, protection is promised (luk21)
if not, then your part of the problem...and still you cannot be killed (Rev9)

the temptation hour is not the wrath of God.

the wrath of God is poured out on those that have taken the mark of the beast.
so obviously the mark of the beast has to be here before God's wrath can come.

so the wrath that the faithful are kept from,
is poured out after the mark of the beast is present

see my point?

 

[zeke37]

1And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory.
2And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.
3For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.
4And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.





the plagues/wrath that faithful believers are kept from, in this pictorial scene,

is only shown after her allotted time, right?
plagues fall on her after she has done her thing...


God's people are called out after her allotted time, and before the wrath of God is poured out


that is the timing of the rapture...
after the trib's time, times and half a time,
and before the wrath


and that only occurs post trib at Christ's Coming

 

[Handmaid for Jesus]

I have been reading the threads the last few days about being left behind or taken, there is no rapture, we'll be raptured in the spring, etc. and one thing keeps sticking out to me:

What if there is no rapture, we're all left behind to make it through the tribulation, and I am not strong enough to battle the forces of evil in God's army????

I had such un-shakable faith as a child and a teenager and it wasn't until here recently that I have begun a walk again with Jesus, but I am still so unsure of many things

What if my faith never becomes strong enough? I feel so lost right now - like I said before, everything I came to know and am still being taught today may or may not be true.

How do I go against what I have thought was of God? What if I fail during the tribulation and am not brave enough when faced with true evil?

I know...it sounds like a rant of a crazy woman - I am not though, just a little freaked out and still trying to find myself.

Kat

Hi KatrinaC.
I am a pre-trib rapture believer but I realize that Jesus can come for us whenever He so pleases. He does not govern Himself to the timetables of mere mortal men. Just walk with Him every day. Share your concerns with Him.Trust Him. And don't fear death, for death has no hold on a child of the Most High God. You need not fear tribulation. Just know that Jesus loves you and is concerned with that which concerns you. Jesus telss us over and over to fear not. Read John 14. Memorize it. It always makes me feel better. Remember the story of Peter walking on the water?

Matt.14:

24But the ship was now in the midst of the sea, tossed with waves: for the wind was contrary.
25And in the fourth watch of the night Jesus went unto them, walking on the sea.
26And when the disciples saw him walking on the sea, they were troubled, saying, It is a spirit; and they cried out for fear.
27But straightway Jesus spake unto them, saying, Be of good cheer; it is I; be not afraid.
28And Peter answered him and said, Lord, if it be thou, bid me come unto thee on the water.
29And he said, Come. And when Peter was come down out of the ship, he walked on the water, to go to Jesus.
30But when he saw the wind boisterous, he was afraid; and beginning to sink, he cried, saying, Lord, save me. 31And immediately Jesus stretched forth his hand, and caught him, and said unto him, O thou of little faith, wherefore didst thou doubt?

In other words, as long as you are walking with Jesus there is no need to fear.

 

[CryptoLutheran]

In antiquity there was a woman whom we remember as St. Perpetua, she was a martyr. What's amazing about her story is that it's one of the earliest hagiographies that we have that doesn't come across as embellished legend, more extraordinary is that the majority of it was written by her own hand. That is, it's the earliest Christian writing we have from a woman's hand.

I hope you can find strength in her story.

The Acts of St. Perpetua

-CryptoLutheran

 

[NJBeliever]

... sigh ...



Instead of focusing on the exact words I used, focus on scripture, NJBeliever. My exact words are unimportant.[/quote[

And this is why the rapture debate rages on. Because every side is so dug in, so persistent and zealous for these rapture models (which are ALL incorrect BTW), that no one is willing to even concede one point to another. You saiud believers were "unscathed" in the GT. The Bible clearly shows this is not the case but you cannot even just say, "I was wrong." No, we have to now try to divert.

Just as you didn't like my choice of words, NJBeliever, your own choice of words is an inaccurate reflection of scripture.

Again, now you are making it about me not liking your words, even though I said nothing of the sort. I simply called you out on an inaccurate interpretation. Many, many post-trib adherents make the same statement, that believers in the Great Trib are supernaturally protected. But the scriptures I posted clearly and unequivocally show this is not the case. That is why you cannot address Scripture and have to now try to make this about other issues.


Believers will not only suffer in the Great Trib, they will be killed. So that means that Isaiah 26 passage cannot possibly mean what you said it does. But for some reason, when it comes to the rapture, everyone is so unwilling to yield any point, it's crazy. I will happily and readily admit that I was 100% wrong about the rapture. I was a pre-trib adherent and defended it and tried to explain it forums, etc., but then I received Biblical correction and realized I was wrong. It's not that big of a deal.

 

[NightHawkeye]

And this is why the rapture debate rages on. Because every side is so dug in, so persistent and zealous for these rapture models (which are ALL incorrect BTW), that no one is willing to even concede one point to another.

I'm not dug in at all, NJBeliever. I granted you that my words were poorly chosen.

... and I'm not at all focused on the rapture. I think that is the least of concerns.

You saiud believers were "unscathed" in the GT. The Bible clearly shows this is not the case but you cannot even just say, "I was wrong."

LOL. Guess you didn't read my prior posts, NJBeliever. Correcting one's mistakes is more important than apologizing and repeating the same pattern of behavior. Again, the words were poorly chosen and I chose to discard them rather than "dig in" as you say.

No, we have to now try to divert.

I did not. I focused on the subject of discussion. I recommend it highly.

Again, now you are making it about me not liking your words, even though I said nothing of the sort.

You so misunderstand what I said. Why is that NJBeliever?

I simply called you out on an inaccurate interpretation.

Why? Is not truth enough?

Many, many post-trib adherents make the same statement, that believers in the Great Trib are supernaturally protected. But the scriptures I posted clearly and unequivocally show this is not the case.

I granted that you provided an interpretation I hadn't considered. What were you looking for?

That is why you cannot address Scripture and have to now try to make this about other issues.

No, the truth is that I'm not particularly focused on "rapture". My belief system doesn't depend upon that. That's why I can discuss it dispassionately.

Believers will not only suffer in the Great Trib, they will be killed. So that means that Isaiah 26 passage cannot possibly mean what you said it does.

... and you say that so dogmatically, NJBeliever. Why is that?

But for some reason, when it comes to the rapture, everyone is so unwilling to yield any point, it's crazy. I will happily and readily admit that I was 100% wrong about the rapture. I was a pre-trib adherent and defended it and tried to explain it forums, etc., but then I received Biblical correction and realized I was wrong. It's not that big of a deal.

Then what in the world was this last post about, NJBeliever?

I'm not a passionate rapture guy, NJBeliever. Perhaps that's why you read too much into what I said. Heck, I'm certainly not a pre-trib adherent either ...

We have that in common.


.

 

[B1inHim]

I get it.

Many of us have secret compromises in our lives that we continue to practice.

Lord Jesus died for us "once and for all".

We need to help where we can, as I see that some here have done and do all that we can do to stand therefore...

It is our personal duty to give up those sins that so easily beset us and He is just to forgive us. Rom 12:1/ 2 Corinthians 7:1 (KJV)
Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God

If we want to make it all the way to WHENEVER Lord Jesus returns, we need to make the choices and stand by them, He already made His.

Love,
Brother Jerry