What if Darwin converted on his deathbed?

[Tomk80]

Can you back that up with Wikipedia?

And I'll ask again: Others believe the story; okay with you if I believe it too?

I find it interesting how you don't even apply your own "were you there standards consistently". Lady Hope was not at Darwin's death bed, his family was. His family says it never happened. According to your own standards, or at least the ones you feign to hold to whenever it is convenient for you in these discussions, you should accept the eyewitness testimony of Darwin's family.

It speaks to your complete lack of honesty and complete rank hypocricy that you do not.

 

[verysincere]

From Henrietta (Darwin's daughter):

"I was present at his deathbed, Lady Hope was not present during his last illness, or any illness. I believe he never even saw her, but in any case she had no influence over him in any department of thought or belief. He never recanted any of his scientific views, either then or earlier. We think the story of his conversion was fabricated in the U.S.A. . . . The whole story has no foundation whatever." Mrs R B Litchfield, "Charles Darwin's Death-Bed: Story of Conversion Denied," The Christian, February 23, 1922, p. 12.

From my own research I got the impression of this scenario: Lady Hope honestly THOUGHT that Darwin was bedridden at the time she visited him---because her visits to his area involved stops which led her to Darwin's house at the time of day immediately after his walk, when he would then habitually take a nap in his bedroom. So her memory of the visit included him in repose and resting. So she made sincere but false assumptions about Darwin's medical state at the time. (I also found reports that Darwin went out of his way to make guests feel comfortable, and he was especially prone to make his Christian guests feel that he was favorably disposed toward Christianity. Some reports tell of him leaving an open Bible next to him so that a guest would assume that Darwin had been interrupted while reading his Bible. Indeed, the culture at the time considered such efforts of the highest etiquette and character. And a look at Darwin's closest friends in the abolitionist movement--- to which Darwin and family donated extremely generously---was virtually a Who's Who of devout Bible-affirming Christians.)

Now whether or not the aforementioned Lady Hope explanation is exactly what happened is not my main point. Rather, the scenario simply illustrates how conflicting reports can all be honest ones. That is, Lady Hope may have indeed been mistaken in thinking that she was visiting Darwin during his final illness, but that doesn't necessarily mean that she was lying. Individuals often tell conflicting accounts via their recollections without any of those witnesses being liars per se.

In my own research I found evidence that Darwin family members sometimes got their facts wrong (while their individual biases and agendas came through) and Lady Hope definitely got her facts wrong at time. But when someone believes that the "stakes" of some event(s) are significant, there is the tendency to polarize and even exaggerate the facts. It is human nature and we've all been guilty of it. (Indeed, how often do my fellow Christians vilify somebody like Darwin by claiming that the person inspired Hitler or Stalin to terrible evil? As idiotic as those claims are, I personally know young earth creationist friends who are generally wonderful and honest people who nevertheless serve as sincere and willing conduits for what is a LIE concocted by unethical creationist leaders who are not so honest.)

By the way, for those who believe Lady Hope was immune to human foibles and absolutely never "conniving", the title "Lady Hope" was a bit of a ruse in itself by the time she became known by that name in America. If I recall properly, she was a widow who remarried and thereby lost the title--but continued to use the aristocratic nomen to her advantage.

 

[AV1611VET]

Lady Hope was not at Darwin's death bed. His family was. His family stated the fantasies of Lady Hope never happened.

QED

QV please: 19

 

[Tomk80]

Based upon my own considerable research into the story some time ago, I seriously doubt that Mrs. Hope is the seriously blatant liar who some claim. [And no, I don't have the time nor inclination to document the reasons why I am more neutral about her character and ethics. After all, we have all agreed that whether or not Darwin converted on his deathbed is irrelevant to the science of evolution.]

But on the other hand, precisely BECAUSE modern-day creationists have worked so hard to build a well-deserved reputation for dishonest quote-mining and "Lying for Jesus" when it suits their purposes, I certainly can understand why anti-creationists have blasted the Lady Hope stories! (Who can blame them?) We are so accustomed to reading incredible claims in creationist websites and videos and then tracking down their citations and primary sources (and lack of same) and finding that their claims were completely bogus---so who wouldn't assume that the Lady Hope stories are just as contrived and dishonest?

I admit all of this with great shame, because all of us Christ-followers pay a price in terms of general reputation when SOME Christians habitually lie. It annoys me greatly that the "Lying for Jesus" meme has become so common online and that a lot of people assume by default that Jesus' teachings must allow for "the end justifies the means" and that that is why so many creationists don't care about honesty when fighting against the theory of evolution and billions of years.

The reason I discount the Lady Hope story is because his family states she was never at the death bed of Darwin. They were there. The most likely option is that Lady Hope was imagining things. Perhaps she saw Darwin before, but at his death bed remains unlikely. Why would you prefer her statements over theirs?

Not calling Lady Hope a liar directly, not every untrue story is a lie. But I see no good reason to trust what she says over the statements of Darwin's own family. She may have misremembered, made it up and subsequently believed it, etc. But the scant evidence we have indicates she was not there, and Darwin definitely did not change his mind over evolution.

 

[TLK Valentine]

QV please: 19

So now we know that the story is a lie.

 

[CabVet]

QV please: 19

AV, you already made it abundantly clear that you have no interest in evidence or truth. You simply believe whatever it is you want to believe. So, if you want to believe that you will share a little slice of heaven with the man that brought us "evilution", I am perfectly fine with that. Perhaps you will find some serial killers up there too as many of them converted in their death beds.

 

[AV1611VET]

I find it interesting how you don't even apply your own "were you there standards consistently". Lady Hope was not at Darwin's death bed, his family was. His family says it never happened. According to your own standards, or at least the ones you feign to hold to whenever it is convenient for you in these discussions, you should accept the eyewitness testimony of Darwin's family.

I don't care if she was at his deathbed or not, since there are two valid refutations to your point:

1. The testimonies of his son & daughter seem to indicate they were not in the room when Lady Hope was.

2. Another poster (?) mentioned the Lady Hope story took place 7 months prior to his death ... in autumn of the previous year.

Either way, I like to think that Mr. Darwin made a confession of faith to at least someone before he died.

It speaks to your complete lack of honesty and complete rank hypocricy that you do not.

You realize that's a reportable offense, do you not?

 

[TLK Valentine]

I don't care if she was at his deathbed or not,

That's unfortunate, since the story is rather clear on the matter.

But then again, you don't care whether it is the truth or not.

since there are two valid refutations to your point:

1. The testimonies of his son & daughter seem to indicate they were not in the room when Lady Hope was.

They were in the room at his deathbed -- she was not. Game over; story's false.

2. Another poster (?) mentioned the Lady Hope story took place 7 months prior to his death ... in autumn of the previous year.

Hardly a deathbed, so the story is false.

Either way, I like to think that Mr. Darwin made a confession of faith to at least someone before he died.

You "like to think" a lot of things, AV -- feel free to indulge in whatever delusions you wish, so long as you don't try to pass them off as fact.

 

[AV1611VET]

So, if you want to believe that you will share a little slice of heaven with the man that brought us "evilution", I am perfectly fine with that.

Thanks ... 'preciate it.

 

[AV1611VET]

They were in the room at his deathbed -- she was not. Game over; story's false.

Obviously.

From her own testimony:

It was one of those glorious autumn afternoons, that we sometimes enjoy in England, when I was asked to go in and sit with the well known professor, Charles Darwin. He was almost bedridden for some months before he died.

Since Mr. Darwin died in April, and she said it is autumn, I now know it wasn't a deathbed scenario (unless he was bedridden for that amount of time, which I think probably wasn't the case).

Hardly a deathbed, so the story is false.

Please highlight anything in her story that you deem to be false.

You "like to think" a lot of things, AV -- feel free to indulge in whatever delusions you wish, so long as you don't try to pass them off as fact.

Thank you, and you do the same.